Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Midlife

There is an established automotive industry in France. Its not nationalistic to support and certainly not going against the spirit of European integration.

Similarly, if someone from here points out that tourism is knackered in Ireland now and it'd be great if we all made an effort to holiday at home for a year or two.

That's being held up here as akin to Brexit?

Tropheus

J Mysterio wrote: »

They are still busy lying in the UK media.
Is there no media watchdog to hold them to task? Should the Express not be forced to print a retraction/ correction to this disinformation?

If the Express was to print retractions to all the misleading BS it prints, the retractions would be longer than the "news" itself.

jm08

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yes, but this is essentially a letter to MPs more generally (or the opposition if you will) and not to the Tories, or government.

Its a response to a letter the opposition MPs obviously wrote to Barnier.

Enzokk

Some info from the appearance of Gove and Frost at the committee today, they refused to commit to the safeguards to the ECHR because they want to ability to enhance it in the future.

Government refusing to sign up to Brexit safeguards so it can change Human Rights Act, Gove admits

The UK is refusing to sign up to human rights safeguards demanded by the EU in exchange for a trade deal so the government has the option of changing the Human Rights Act, Michael Gove has said.

The cabinet office minister told a parliamentary committee on Wednesday that the government might want to "enhance" legislation on human rights "in all sorts of ways".

Britain, along with every country in Europe other than Belarus, is a signatory of the European Convention on Human Rights. Brussels wants the UK to commit to seeing the status quo on the issue as part of the terms of a Brexit trade agreement.

They want to enhance it by getting rid of it.

Leroy42

It has been explained so many times that standards, or which the ECHR can be counted, are the lowest level. There is nothing to stop any country from going above them, or enhance them as Gove is trying to state it.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: No insults please. Post deleted.

Reading the comments section of this story.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52819126

Coronavirus: Von der Leyen calls €750bn recovery fund 'Europe's moment'

....


A recovery fund worth €750bn (£670bn; $825bn) has been proposed by the EU's executive Commission to help the EU tackle an "unprecedented crisis".

The package will be made up of grants and loans for every EU member state.

Economies across the 27-nation EU bloc have been ravaged by the Covid-19 pandemic, but several southern states had big debts even before the crisis.

Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said "this is Europe's moment".

"Things we take for granted are being questioned. None of that can be fixed by any single country alone," she told the European Parliament. "This is about all of us and it is way bigger than any of us."

Brexiteers are jumping all over this in the comments section saying just how the UK has had a lucky escape from being burdened with the costs of all this "recovery fund!"

McGiver

CelticRambler wrote: »

This was extensively discussed here (in France) on the radio last weekend in the context of Renault's looming financial difficulties. The consensus from all contributors was that pumping money into electric vehicles won't bring any jobs "home" because we Europeans don't own the most important part of any EV - the battery, and the (lack of) availability of batteries will severely hamper development of the industry. Putting up more barriers for the sake of national self-interest will only hand an advantage to countries/companies that don't engage in such silliness.

On that point, there's an outside chance that the UK might manage to outmanoeuvre the French, if they were to invest in - and succeed in - the development of fuel-cell technology. But, of course, they risk scuppering their best opportunity to conquer the French by shutting themselves out of the EU.

EU, several member states and sone carmakers are already working on battery R&D and especially manufacturing in Europe. This is long recognised issue and it's being worked on.

It's better to pump money into electric car industry even when the battery supply is still Asian than to pump money to largely obsolete polluting fossil fuel car industry which is dependent on oil from despotic, unstable and toxic countries.

Capt'n Midnight

IIRC the German car makers reckoned Brexit would cost them about €1.2Bn a year because of tariffs and extra paperwork.

And then the pound fell against the euro so they had to offer discounts to sell cars in the UK.

To put that cost in perspective one German car maker alone Volkswagen is paying out €30 Bn for the emissions scandal.


The German car makers will not be rushing to the UK's rescue or dancing to their tune.

Peregrinus

J Mysterio wrote: »

Yes, but this is essentially a letter to MPs more generally (or the opposition if you will) and not to the Tories, or government.

jm08 wrote: »

Its a response to a letter the opposition MPs obviously wrote to Barnier.

Indeed.

And, furthermore, all the letter does is quote more or less word-for-word what the Withdrawal Agreement says about an extension. The Withdrawal Agreement that Boris Johnson secured, and Boris Johnson signed on behalf of the UK, and the Boris Johnson and his fanboys hailed as the "oven-ready deal" that Boris Johnson secured when no-one else could.

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

IIRC the German car makers reckoned Brexit would cost them about €1.2Bn a year because of tariffs and extra paperwork.

And then the pound fell against the euro so they had to offer discounts to sell cars in the UK.

To put that cost in perspective one German car maker alone Volkswagen is paying out €30 Bn for the emissions scandal.


The German car makers will not be rushing to the UK's rescue or dancing to their tune.

Historically, the German cars always sold at a higher price in the UK than other markets, and at lower prices in the Irish market (due to VRT).

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Historically, the German cars always sold at a higher price in the UK than other markets, and at lower prices in the Irish market (due to VRT).

They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.

Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

Perhaps the UK has copied some EU countries and offered `tax haven` incentives.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

Did she?

moon2

Leroy42 wrote: »

Didn't Nissan receive a secret deal from TM just after the brexit vote?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/04/government-letter-to-nissan-reveals-brexit-promise-to-carmarkers

Not sure what the current status of this deal is though. It's unlikely to be widely announced and publicly available to read.

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

Perhaps the UK has copied some EU countries and offered `tax haven` incentives.

Could you post details of these tax havens? If other EU countries are offering them already, why hasn't the UK done it before?

fash

Would imagine it makes more sense to be in UK than in EU. Japan has a deal with EU and can sell in cars directly. If there is no deal between UK and EU, better to be based in UK so can sell directly there and from Japan to EU. Couple that with some UK style dubious state aid and could make sense

Sam Russell

Enzokk wrote: »

Could you post details of these tax havens? If other EU countries are offering them already, why hasn't the UK done it before?

I
The Caymen Islands,The British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar, The Isle of Mann, The Channel Islands, etc. etc. etc.

Sam Russell

fash wrote: »

Would imagine it makes more sense to be in UK than in EU. Japan has a deal with EU and can sell in cars directly. If there is no deal between UK and EU, better to be based in UK so can sell directly there and from Japan to EU. Couple that with some UK style dubious state aid and could make sense

Not when 80% of cars are exported. Where do the components come from?

Better to manufacture in Japan and ship directly to markets.

fash

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not when 80% of cars are exported. Where do the components come from?

Better to manufacture in Japan and ship directly to markets.

Hard to understand the decision otherwise: unless there is an absolutely huge state aid bung, why stay in UK otherwise?

Edit: ok, it seems the correct answer is that nothing has actually changed yet.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

I
The Caymen Islands,The British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar, The Isle of Mann, The Channel Islands, etc. etc. etc.

I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.

True, but lots of opportunities for tax diversion - and plenty of benefit to spread around. Who cares about manufacturing - more money to be had dodging taxes.

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt you could have large manufacturing or pharmaceutical companies in any of those places.

I wasn't trying to catch you out or anything, you just made a statement about tax haven countries in the EU in your post. I was just wondering what you were basing this view on.

The second question still stands though, what has stopped the UK from following this model if other EU countries are already doing it? I hope you aren't trying to imply there is a EU Law that prohibits the UK from doing the same as other countries.

Capt'n Midnight

fash wrote: »

Hard to understand the decision otherwise: unless there is an absolutely huge state aid bung, why stay in UK otherwise?

Edit: ok, it seems the correct answer is that nothing has actually changed yet.

The other answer is that there is enough domestic to support one large car plant in the UK even if all the others close.


It's essential that the UK get the EU to recognise cars made in the UK from EU parts as OK for rules of origin.

The US on the other hand is more likely to treat the UK like Canada or Mexico when it comes to rules of origin. I can't see the US grandfathering in the use of EU parts for the sake of it. GMO, NHS contracts, chlorinated chicken, cattle laced with chemicals are the obvious trade offs.

Sam Russell

Nissan have closed car plant in Barcelona.

http://https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52829348

Must have some deal agreed.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They sell cars with the paddy spec, which is far lower than the UK spec, hence so many UK imports.

In other news,.Nissan have decided to keep the Sunderland factory open while closing a plant in Spain.

Paddy spec is the result of vrt and the need to keep prices reasonably affordable with vrt on top.

It's not paddy spec as the priority which you seem to imply.

Leroy42

It is an odd announcement from Nissan. It will of course be lauded in the likes of the Express as a vote of confidence in Brexit, and in some ways it is, but there is more to it than that.

I wonder why they announced it now, prior to any deal. It is either a massive gamble or they have already factored in the issues that no deal could bring, or are relying on whatever was in that deal.

RobMc59

Enzokk wrote: »

I wasn't trying to catch you out or anything, you just made a statement about tax haven countries in the EU in your post. I was just wondering what you were basing this view on.

The second question still stands though, what has stopped the UK from following this model if other EU countries are already doing it? I hope you aren't trying to imply there is a EU Law that prohibits the UK from doing the same as other countries.

I wasn't implying anything,I have no problem with countries attracting investment by offering incentives,I posted because someone implied the UK had a secret deal.
It's possible the Nissan UK facility is more competitive than the Spanish plant which could be the reason for their decision.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is an odd announcement from Nissan. It will of course be lauded in the likes of the Express as a vote of confidence in Brexit, and in some ways it is, but there is more to it than that.

I wonder why they announced it now, prior to any deal. It is either a massive gamble or they have already factored in the issues that no deal could bring, or are relying on whatever was in that deal.

Nissan have a significant market share in the UK and there is also talk of assembling other makes there as well.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52829348
Nissan is part of a three-way alliance with Renault and Mitsubishi, which are restructuring global operations to enable them to work more closely and cut costs.
As part of its plans, Nissan said it would focus on several "key markets", including Japan, North America and China.
Its boss said that it will "sustain" its presence in Europe but will leave more room for alliance partners there, such as Renault.


There has been speculation that Renault could switch some production to the Sunderland factory.
Nissan chief executive Makoto Uchida said the company would maintain production at its Sunderland plant.
It will begin building cars there again in June, after production was paused due to coronavirus-related lockdown measures.

I'm not so sure about them Building Renaults though, but it would avoid any tariffs if they did.