Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

serfboard

ambro25 wrote: »

the fundamental problem with the largest proportion of Brits ... its sheer apathy about all things political

2019 UK General Election Turnout: 67%
2020 IE General Election Turnout: 63%

Zubeneschamali

I do not think there is any legal way for the EU to offer an extension under the current treaties unless the UK requests it this month.

The UK is already out, it would take a new EU treaty ratified by all 27 to extend the transition, not practical.

Imreoir2

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I do not think there is any legal way for the EU to offer an extension under the current treaties unless the UK requests it this month.

The UK is already out, it would take a new EU treaty ratified by all 27 to extend the transition, not practical.

I'm open to correction, but I would expect that a minor techincal change to the treaty to allow for an extension later in the year would be non-controvercial and could be carried out if needed?

If not, then we can assume a hard Brexit will happen if an extension has not been agreed by the end of the month.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: No insults please. Post deleted.

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

We are told that any potential negative consequence of Brexit is "scaremongering".

When that negative consequence is proven to be a reality, we are told that the British public fully understood what they were voting for and as such the UK is more than happy to live with the consequence for the sake of Brexit.

At the same time, these consequences that the UK fully understood and voted for, are evidence of how terrible the EU is.

Although remaining(or remaining aligned to)in the EU is personally preferable,the worst case scenario of a no deal brexit equally impacts the EU negatively, the popular pastime of playing down the significance UK innovation and invention has contributed (and will contribute)to the world is ridiculous.

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

Although remaining(or remaining aligned to)in the EU is personally preferable,the worst case scenario of a no deal brexit equally impacts the EU negatively, the popular pastime of playing down the significance UK innovation and invention has contributed (and will contribute)to the world is ridiculous.

Negative? Yes.
Equally negative? No, far from it.

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Negative? Yes.
Equally negative? No, far from it.

How do you come to that conclusion?

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion?

Lets not rewalk well trodden ground.
50% of UK exports go to the EU, vastly less than 50% of EU exports go to the UK. The UK is hugely more exposed in a no-FTA scenario than the EU is.

The UK is not the equal of the EU, never has been. The negiotiation is heavly imbalanced in the EU's favour, and the consequences of not doing a deal are heavily imbalenced against the UK.

Podge_irl

CelticRambler wrote: »

When Switzerland exercised its sovereign right to restrict free movement of EU citizens into Switzerland, the EU exercised its options pretty damn quickly, with serious consequences for those people in Switzerland depending on EU benevolence. It didn't take much longer for the Swiss to review their position and reinstate freedom of movement to the EU's satisfaction.

The Swiss never even got so far as to restrict free movement. They had a referendum about restricting free movement which passed (against a lot of opposition and to some surprise) and that is when the EU kicked into action. The govt had 3 years to implement the referendum and ultimately they went for a more or less face saving exercise of legislation that required certain jobs to be advertised in Switzerland for a week before going outside the EU.

It was a referendum that is indicative of the issues in their otherwise laudable direct democracy system. These kind of decisions are very difficult to make in isolation and arriving at what the referendum "meant" is actually quite difficult. Obviously many people were unhappy with the outcome, but the majority of people - i.e. those who voted against it and those who didn't feel strongly about it - were happy with the largely symbolic approach.

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Lets not rewalk well trodden ground.
50% of UK exports go to the EU, vastly less than 50% of EU exports go to the UK. The UK is hugely more exposed in a no-FTA scenario than the EU is.

The UK is not the equal of the EU, never has been. The negiotiation is heavly imbalanced in the EU's favour, and the consequences of not doing a deal are heavily imbalenced against the UK.

I thought we were discussing academic credentials and whether they would be recognized following brexit?

Imreoir2

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Swiss never even got so far as to restrict free movement. They had a referendum about restricting free movement which passed (against a lot of opposition and to some surprise) and that is when the EU kicked into action. The govt had 3 years to implement the referendum and ultimately they went for a more or less face saving exercise of legislation that required certain jobs to be advertised in Switzerland for a week before going outside the EU.

It was a referendum that is indicative of the issues in their otherwise laudable direct democracy system. These kind of decisions are very difficult to make in isolation and arriving at what the referendum "meant" is actually quite difficult. Obviously many people were unhappy with the outcome, but the majority of people - i.e. those who voted against it and those who didn't feel strongly about it - were happy with the largely symbolic approach.

That is the problem with referendums. I am not necessarily against direct democracy in principle, but you have to be very careful about the question you ask. Vague wide ranging questions should be avoided. Everyone should be crystal clear on what the question means and what the impact of either outcome would be.

Putting huge moral and legal force behind somthing that is open to speculation and interpretation is asking for trouble.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I thought we were discussing academic credentials and whether they would be recognized following brexit?

Do you think the Uk should openly recognise every other countries across the world academic credientials? (They don't btw)

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

I thought we were discussing academic credentials and whether they would be recognized following brexit?

Did you? The post of mine you were responding to was about any consequences of Brexit.

What makes you think that in the limited area of acedemic credentials, the negative consequences of Brexit will be equally felt in the EU as in the UK?

It seems obvious to me that the biggest impact will be on the holders UK qualifications who will face a massive reduction in the market in which they can sell their skills.

The holders of EU qualifications will see some reduction in the market for their skills, but nothing like the reduction faced by holders of UK qualifications.

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you think the Uk should openly recognise every other countries across the world academic credientials? (They don't btw)

Could you provide more information about this as despite the popular view here the UK is and has always been quite a cosmopolitan country with many people from overseas happy to be here,probably long before many other countries followed their lead.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Although remaining(or remaining aligned to)in the EU is personally preferable,the worst case scenario of a no deal brexit equally impacts the EU negatively, the popular pastime of playing down the significance UK innovation and invention has contributed (and will contribute)to the world is ridiculous.

How does a no deal Brexit impact the EU to the same level or equally as you put it?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How does a no deal Brexit impact the EU to the same level or equally as you put it?

Say for example a British scientist invented a game changing car fuel cell or a new method of jet propulsion,are you suggesting that the EU wouldn't recognize that expertise or technology as their credentials don't comply with what Brussels would like?

Podge_irl

RobMc59 wrote: »

Say for example a British scientist invented a game changing car fuel cell or a new method of jet propulsion,are you suggesting that the EU wouldn't recognize that expertise or technology as their credentials don't comply with what Brussels would like?

That is not remotely what "recognising" professional qualifications means. It is actually just insanely far from what it means.

Where a role/job requires accreditation or qualifications a country can consider another country's certified qualifications as sufficient. That is it.

RobMc59

Podge_irl wrote: »

That is not remotely what "recognising" professional qualifications means. It is actually just insanely far from what it means.

Where a role/job requires accreditation or qualifications a country can consider another country's certified qualifications as sufficient. That is it.

So the EU would recognise UK qualifications and accreditation,I was under the impression from some earlier posts that wasn't the case.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Say for example a British scientist invented a game changing car fuel cell or a new method of jet propulsion,are you suggesting that the EU wouldn't recognize that expertise or technology as their credentials don't comply with what Brussels would like?

As Podge said above, this is not at all what we're talking about:

https://nfq.qqi.ie/

That is an interactive chart showing Ireland's national framework of qualifications.

It also shows how it fits within the European framework.

There was a huge rationalisation of our qualifications over the last decade as well as across Europe to enable seamless recognition of awards throughout the EU.

No more need to get letters from institutions or translations to send off while trying to apply for masters etc.

Look at that, the EU creating an efficient bureaucracy to remove red tape and duplication across the continent. Wow.

---

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.qqi.ie/Downloads/Understanding%2520the%2520NFQ%2520-%2520Interative%2520Presentation.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiUsoH90ffpAhUbaRUIHUPQD2EQFjAKegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw3Pp6KC7qa7TCbxbs0hAFTh


The above is a link to a PDF which shows the step by step of the NFQ from Junior Certificate to Doctorate and PostDoc and then how that slots into the European Framework.

Give it a whirl.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

So the EU would recognise UK qualifications and accreditation,I was under the impression from some earlier posts that wasn't the case.

No, that's what it does now. But with a no deal it will refuse to recognise them from Jan 1, 2021.

Peregrinus

I think professional/vocational rather than academic qualifications are the bigger issue. At present an Irish doctor (say) can go and practice anywherer in the EU simply by registering with the appropriate registration board in that country, whereas a US doctor cannot; he needs to provide details of his training and qualifications and have them assessed to see if they are at least equivalent to the EU qualifications. At best this will cost him money and take time; at worst he will be required to complete some further training or qualification in order to be registered in an EU country. And, should he wish to practice in another EU country, he has to go throught the whole palaver again.

This is not just for doctors; the same would apply to accountants or electricians or teachers or any regulated profession or occupation.

That's the situation the UK will be facing in the event of a crash-out.

Of course, it works both ways; EU qualifications will not be recognised in the UK (unless the UK does this unilaterally, which is unlikely). But it's not an equal problem both ways; for me as an Irish-qualified person the number of countries in which my qualifications are automatically recognised goes from 31 countries to 30, and my opportunities to travel and work abroad are barely affected; for someone with a UK qualification the number goes from 31 to 1, and the effect on labour mobility is signficant.

Peregrinus

RobMc59 wrote: »

Could you provide more information about this as despite the popular view here the UK is and has always been quite a cosmopolitan country with many people from overseas happy to be here,probably long before many other countries followed their lead.

The popular view is misplaced. If you are not an EU citizen or a citizen of an EEA country the UK is quite a difficult country to get into. It used to be relatively easy for Commonwealth citizens, but that changed about 40 years ago, and the large West Indian/African/Indian/Pakistani community in the UK is substantially made up of the desendants of migrants rather than of migrants themselves.

While its true that many people from other countries are happy to be in the UK, it's not so true that the UK is happy to have them. That's what the Windrush scandal was all about, really.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

No, that's what it does now. But with a no deal it will refuse to recognise them from Jan 1, 2021.

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

What?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What?

Which part of my post are you unsure about?

Edit:thanks for the earlier links re qualifications.

Professor Moriarty

RobMc59 wrote: »

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

I hope not. Though I'm not a scientist, I have UK qualifications. No goddam way am I going back to college.

Quin_Dub

RobMc59 wrote: »

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

Of course not - There are plenty of places that don't currently have reciprocation of qualifications and it has a zero impact on the validity of an invention or discovery.

What it means is that someone with a qualification from a British certification body cannot apply for a job in another EU country requiring a similar qualification.

So if I'm a Civil Engineer with my qualifications from a British Governing body for example , I cannot be hired by an Irish company if that role requires that I hold a valid Civil Engineering qualification as post Brexit I will no longer hold a certification that is considered valid in the EU.

It doesn't mean that if I design a new kind of flood drainage system that that system cannot be used in the EU.

RobMc59

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Of course not - There are plenty of places that don't currently have reciprocation of qualifications and it has a zero impact on the validity of an invention or discovery.

What it means is that someone with a qualification from a British certification body cannot apply for a job in another EU country requiring a similar qualification.

So if I'm a Civil Engineer with my qualifications from a British Governing body for example , I cannot be hired by an Irish company if that role requires that I hold a valid Civil Engineering qualification as post Brexit I will no longer hold a certification that is considered valid in the EU.

It doesn't mean that if I design a new kind of flood drainage system that that system cannot be used in the EU.

I thought the 'have our cake and eat it' approach was the intellectual property of the UK?

ilovesmybrick

RobMc59 wrote: »

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

That's not remotely what it means. In practice it means that the degrees I earned in Ireland were accepted, at face value, as equivalent to Swedish degrees when I applied to a course there. It also means that the degrees I earned in Ireland and Sweden were accepted by my employer in Austria as equivalent to Austrian degrees, with no need for any other proof of qualification. Working with citizens of countries outside the EU they can have a series of issues in the acceptance of their degrees without a tedious number of bureaucratic hurdles in place. I know of colleagues who started in my workplace, before Austria was an EU member, and there were several issues with the acceptance and transferral of qualifications. This was rectified by the Bologna process.

And as pointed out by a previous poster, the main issue is with trade or professional qualifications. For example the city & guilds qualifications that many tradesman have. A city & guilds HVAC qualification may no longer be accepted by an EU country, so there have been intensive courses in a number of IT's in Ireland that have essentially being re-certifying qualified individuals with diplomas or certs that will be accepted across the EU.

Peregrinus

RobMc59 wrote: »

If UK qualifications aren't recognized by the EU surely the work,discoveries or inventions of UK educated scientists or academics aren't recognized either?

Work, discoveries, inventions etc are recognised according to their own merits. Your invention is not deemed to be useful merely because you have a master's degree in engineering (say) from a reputable university; it has to be actually useful. And conversely your invention is not deemed to be useless merely because you don't have a master's degree in engineering (or because you have a degree from a foreign institution).