Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

I know there was a discussion on the launch of the Tory campaign yesterday and how it compared to Labour and there was a remark that it looked great and full of energy for the upcoming election. Sometimes though things are not what they appear to be,

https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1192398407811383296?s=20

I wonder if the British people will turn out to be as special as they think they are, then they would sneer at these attempts by the Tories to fool them. Unfortunately they are just like most people around the world and tricks like this will work just as well as they do in other countries.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Despite following UK politics for years having lived there I can't name any of the other Lib Dem front bench. I looked them up and the only ones that were familiar were the former leaders and three rebels elected as other party members.

It looks a bit off but if she is the only name in the news it makes sense to link to her directly.
650 nobodies standing all over the country aren't going to have the same recognition.

This is very reminiscent of Macron's strategy. His party deliberately fielded a team of "nobodies" with no skeletons in cupboards as part of his promise to give the Assemblée a good clearing out. Even though Swinson lacks Macron's polished diplomacy, I think she (or someone behind the scenes) is hoping to emulate his success.

Now while I don't think the British electorate is sufficiently fed up of either of the two main parties to make that work like it did in France, Brexit just might be the once-in-a-lifetime (ish) chance the Lib Dems need - on the back of Revoke message - to make the gains needed to have sufficient influence in the next parliament to be able to demand a move to proportional representation in future elections.

Enzokk

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

On Austin, his family has a Jewish background and much of his anger towards Corbyn was Corbyn's (real or perceived) antisemitism and (real or perceived) watery reaction to antisemitism within Labour.

That could be, but he seems to have always been outspoken against the leaders of the Labour party and he was outspoken against Miliband and his policies as well.

josip

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is very reminiscent of Macron's strategy. His party deliberately fielded a team of "nobodies" with no skeletons in cupboards as part of his promise to give the Assemblée a good clearing out. Even though Swinson lacks Macron's polished diplomacy, I think she (or someone behind the scenes) is hoping to emulate his success.

Now while I don't think the British electorate is sufficiently fed up of either of the two main parties to make that work like it did in France, Brexit just might be the once-in-a-lifetime (ish) chance the Lib Dems need - on the back of Revoke message - to make the gains needed to have sufficient influence in the next parliament to be able to demand a move to proportional representation in future elections.

I think the French as a nation and a mindset are much more open to change.
In the past they've had no problems with lopping off the heads of the elite or students/farmers getting out on the streets.
The British are much more fearful of change, like things the way they are and always have been. They would never lop off heads, take to the streets or vote in a Macron/Lib Dem type government.

hometruths

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is very reminiscent of Macron's strategy. His party deliberately fielded a team of "nobodies" with no skeletons in cupboards as part of his promise to give the Assemblée a good clearing out. Even though Swinson lacks Macron's polished diplomacy, I think she (or someone behind the scenes) is hoping to emulate his success.

Now while I don't think the British electorate is sufficiently fed up of either of the two main parties to make that work like it did in France, Brexit just might be the once-in-a-lifetime (ish) chance the Lib Dems need - on the back of Revoke message - to make the gains needed to have sufficient influence in the next parliament to be able to demand a move to proportional representation in future elections.

Agree with your point on Lib Dems opportunity in this particular election. I think Swinson needs to try and keep above the fray, let the other two parties take lumps out of each other and squabble internally.

If the rest of campaign keeps up with the carnage of the first two days, some voters will be begging for an alternative!

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

That could be, but he seems to have always been outspoken against the leaders of the Labour party and he was outspoken against Miliband and his policies as well.

Indeed, but antisemitism in Labour was the primary reason he left Labour. I don't think he was ever truly comfortable in Labour once Corbyn took over.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

On Austin, his family has a Jewish background and much of his anger towards Corbyn was Corbyn's (real or perceived) antisemitism and (real or perceived) watery reaction to antisemitism within Labour.

I understand that. The whole point of his intervention was to cash in on tom watsons resignation and enhance the perception that this was some sort of move developing against corbyn. From what i can tell watson has gone for mostly personal reasons, maybe time will tell otherwise, but i doubt it. I've no doubt labour has an issue with AS and it will hurt it, but austin was being cynically opportunistic this morning and likely hamming it up for all he was worth on the kay burley show. Imo anyway.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I understand that. The whole point of his intervention was to cash in on tom watsons resignation and enhance the perception that this was some sort of move developing against corbyn. From what i can tell watson has gone for mostly personal reasons, maybe time will tell otherwise, but i doubt it. I've no doubt labour has an issue with AS and it will hurt it, but austin was being cynically opportunistic this morning and likely hamming it up for all he was worth on the kay burley show. Imo anyway.

I couldn't agree more. To ask the Labour people who supported him to now vote for a right wing Tory party, with a right wing liar as its leader, is a betrayal.

listermint

quokula wrote: »

If you want to know what kind of Labour MP Ian Austin was, here's some snippets:

Attacking Corbyn for criticising the Iraq invasion

Making false claims about Palestinians and the holocaust

Demonising Immigrants

Calling on Labour to support an EU In-Out referendum, back in 2013

Sounds like a brexiteer....


Is this coming from corbyns recent Jump in popularity

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. To ask the Labour people who supported him to now vote for a right wing Tory party, with a right wing liar as its leader, is a betrayal.

I remember a couple of weeks back he stood up in the house - still sitting on the labour bench - and called for corbyn to go. The anger and disgust from mps around him told me all i needed to know about how he was regarded in the party. I suspect he hates corbyn for a lot more reasons than perceived AS, but that is just the most convenient stick to beat him with.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I remember a couple of weeks back he stood up in the house - still sitting on the labour bench - and called for corbyn to go. The anger and disgust from mps around him told me all i needed to know about how he was regarded in the party. I suspect he hates corbyn for a lot more reasons than perceived AS, but that is just the most convenient stick to beat him with.

Apparently he was very much on the right of the Labour party, which would make sense of his attacks on Corbyn. No more than the Tories, Labour is a very divided party and this is a prime example of that division.

Enzokk

In a revelation that will surprise nobody,

Bercow: Brexit 'biggest foreign policy mistake in post-war period'

Update posted at 14h26,

Former Commons speaker John Bercow has called Brexit "the biggest foreign policy mistake in the post-war period".

A recording of Mr Bercow has emerged when he was speaking at the Foreign Press Association in London.

He told journalists that while he was impartial when in the post, he could now tell all on his own opinion.

In the recording from the Turkish Anadolu Agency, Mr Bercow said: "I'm no longer the Speaker. I don't have to remain impartial now.

"And, if you asked me honestly, do I think that Brexit is good for our global standing? The honest answer is no, I don't.

"I think that Brexit is the biggest foreign policy mistake in the post-war period, and that is my honest view."

Many Tories will now jump up and shout, "I knew it! He was biased against Brexit!" They will however have a tough time explaining why he gave Brexiteers a lot of time in the HoC to ask their questions and give them time to present their case before the referendum.

Also, I learned something new today. The reason why people haven't had a raise in Ireland in more than 10 years is because of the Labour party in the UK. You learn new things everyday,

https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1192392227810676736?s=20

‘Many will remember financial crash of 2008 when arrogant Labour Govt allowed us to come to the edge of catastrophe’
-Sajid Javid

-So it wasn’t the banks then?

-Reminder: Sajid Javid was a banker, director of Deutsche, at the time

quokula

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed, but antisemitism in Labour was the primary reason he left Labour. I don't think he was ever truly comfortable in Labour once Corbyn took over.

Given his history of dishonesty and of being pro-war, anti-immigration and anti-Palestine (I posted a bunch of links on his past positions and behaviours on the previous page if you missed it) it's hardly a surprise he was uncomfortable under a leader who is the antithesis of that.

He was heavily critical of Miliband for not being hardline enough on immigrants, and he was one of the small number of MPs who threatened to resign when Miliband was going to whip MPs into recognising the Palestinian state back in 2014, before Miliband backed down. I wonder if the anti-semitism claims would have come out back then if Miliband himself wasn't Jewish.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Apparently he was very much on the right of the Labour party, which would make sense of his attacks on Corbyn. No more than the Tories, Labour is a very divided party and this is a prime example of that division.

That is true. One of the labour defectors was on newsnight last night claiming watsons resignation was the ultimate defeat of the moderate wing of the party. I dont like those labels as i refuse to accept the media spin that there is anything extremist about the current labour left. That's just my position but cannot disagree that the party remains divided. Probably always will too.

Edit: what i mean about those labels has just been outlined to me watching john mcdonnell on sky being asked by a reuters journalist whether he's a marxist. Just a dumb lazy question if you ask me.

Letwin_Larry

looks like McDonnell is going to borrow his way to bankruptcy then. £400 Billion!!!
they'll make the winter of discontent look like a picnic in Richmond Pk.
anybody with anything, a house, an investment, a business, a pension, a few shares will be horrified by the thoughts of this guy as Chancellor. the stuff of nightmares for middle class voters.

It should come as no surprise that the further Left you go, the more anti-Semitism you find.

Many anti-Semitic racist tropes refer to Jewish people as being all about greed and the acquisition of wealth. And given how the far-Left is about wealth distribution, it's unsurprising that Jewish people become their primary target on confected conspiratorial grounds.

The hogwash we hear about Palestinian plight is a convenient cover to verbally smash the state of Israel on anti-Semitic grounds. I think if Israel were an Islamic country and the "Palestinian people" were treated in the same way, I don't believe you would see the same type of reaction and level of indignation from the Left that you do with the Jewish State.

It's not a coincidence. Far from it.

For these reasons, I sincerely hope that the anti-Semitism scandal engulfed within the Labour Party becomes a significant talking point in this election.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

That is true. One of the labour defectors was on newsnight last night claiming watsons resignation was the ultimate defeat of the moderate wing of the party. I dont like those labels as i refuse to accept the media spin that there is anything extremist about the current labour left. That's just my position but cannot disagree that the party remains divided. Probably always will too.

No more than the Tories have swung to the right (compared to Cameron's Tory party), Labour has swung to the left (compared to Blair's Labour party). I wouldn't describe their current policies as extremist but I wouldn't describe them as centrist either.

CelticRambler

josip wrote: »

I think the French as a nation and a mindset are much more open to change.
In the past they've had no problems with lopping off the heads of the elite or students/farmers getting out on the streets.

:pac: :pac: :pac: Oh, no. Nooo, no, no ... All those French students, farmers, gilet jaunes on the streets - they're all protesting against change! They love superficial renewal (as evidenced by the sheer number of hairdressers and decor shops in even the smallest towns) but resistance to real change is at least as deeply ingrained in the French mentality as in the British.

But they do love lopping off the heads of anyone deemed "elite".

Professor Moriarty

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

looks like Comrade McDonnell is going to borrow his way to bankruptcy then.
they'll make the winter of discontent look like a picnic in Richmond Pk.
anybody with anything, a house, an investment, a business, a pension, a few shares will be horrified by the thoughts of this guy as Chancellor. the stuff of nightmares for middle class voters.

Looks like Lord Javid has abandoned austerity and will be borrowing heavily.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No more than the Tories have swung to the right (compared to Cameron's Tory party), Labour has swung to the left (compared to Blair's Labour party). I wouldn't describe their current policies as extremist but I wouldn't describe them as centrist either.

I agree with that. But compared to blairism is the apposite phrase, how much to the right do you have to swing to earn the endorsement of rupert murdoch? The party is to the left which is what a lot of people in the uk want. A lot of people in Scandinavian countries probably wouldnt see labour policies as all that left wing at all, certainly nowhere near extreme anyway. The lurch to the right on the tory side is much more pronounced imo.

Letwin_Larry

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No more than the Tories have swung to the right (compared to Cameron's Tory party), Labour has swung to the left (compared to Blair's Labour party). I wouldn't describe their current policies as extremist but I wouldn't describe them as centrist either.

you must have missed Mr. McDonnell then.

LeinsterDub

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/06/lib-dems-plaid-cymru-and-greens-launch-pro-remain-electoral-pact


Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens launch pro-remain electoral pact

Big boast for remain

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I agree with that. But compared to blairism is the apposite phrase, how much to the right do you have to swing to earn the endorsement of rupert murdoch? The party is to the left which is what a lot of people in the uk want. A lot of people in Scandinavian countries probably wouldnt see labour policies as all that left wing at all, certainly nowhere near extreme anyway. The lurch to the right on the tory side is much more pronounced imo.

Maybe. It's a matter of perspective. Personally, I would find it difficult to vote for Labour given it's current economic policies but would have had no problem under previous leaders.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Maybe. It's a matter of perspective. Personally, I would find it difficult to vote for Labour given it's current economic policies but would have had no problem under previous leaders.

Sure. I would be long time labour leaning but blair and Campbell would have driven me reluctantly away. I dont believe corbyn is beyond criticism in any way, but the idea of a genuinely socialist gov that would tackle the gross wealth inequality in society as well as climate change holds appeal for me. Same with bernie sanders. Ive no huge faith either will ever happen though. Least in my lifetime anyway.

Bannasidhe

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

looks like Comrade McDonnell is going to borrow his way to bankruptcy then.
they'll make the winter of discontent look like a picnic in Richmond Pk.
anybody with anything, a house, an investment, a business, a pension, a few shares will be horrified by the thoughts of this guy as Chancellor. the stuff of nightmares for middle class voters.

Strangely enough my middle class, retired top ranking civil servant, living on her pension in an actual Tudor pile in the leafy suburbs of Torydom friend of 30 odd years standing and her equally middle class works in IT partner are positively invigorated by McDonnell's message.
I hoping her usual messages reading "I'm Scared" whenever Boris makes another 'promise' are a thing of the past. My inbox was getting full....

Any chance you could address my question re: Corbyn's 'associations'?

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Sure. I would be long time labour leaning but blair and Campbell would have driven me reluctantly away. I dont believe corbyn is beyond criticism in any way, but the idea of a genuinely socialist gov that would tackle the gross wealth inequality in society as well as climate change holds appeal for me. Same with bernie sanders. Ive no huge faith either will ever happen though. Least in my lifetime anyway.

Good point. It's that bite point between having fair and just policies (as many of Labour's current policies are) and getting elected to implement them.

Seth Brundle

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

you must have missed comrade McDonnell then.

Mod: Stop with this childish name calling - immediately!
I've deleted a number of posts based on you making childish names which are below the standard expected here.
If I see any more then I'll take a harder line!
Please read the POLITICS CHARTER AND GUIDELINES before posting in the Politics forum again.

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

Some more fact checking of Johnson's spending pledges,

So far building 40 hospitals means upgrading 6

20,000 new police only means undoing cuts previous




In 2015 the Tories promised to build 200,000 starter homes.

The 2015 spending review set aside £2.3bn to support the delivery of the first 60,000 properties under the scheme.

So far ZERO have been built.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

The hogwash we hear about Palestinian plight is a convenient cover to verbally smash the state of Israel on anti-Semitic grounds. I think if Israel were an Islamic country and the "Palestinian people" were treated in the same way, I don't believe you would see the same type of reaction and level of indignation from the Left that you do with the Jewish State.

It's not a coincidence. Far from it.

For these reasons, I sincerely hope that the anti-Semitism scandal engulfed within the Labour Party becomes a significant talking point in this election.

I think you will find that Irish people would side generally with the Palestinian and indeed our elected head of state, President Michael D. Higgins (a former Labour TD) is regarded as a major enemy of the Government of Israel because of his outspoken criticism of the Israeli Government in its treatment of the Palestinian people. Only Zionists dare to call Michael D. anti-semitic (and they do). Jeremy Corbyn comes from the same politicial family as Michael D. so its hardly surprising they would have similar views on the Israel/Palestine question. What a disgrace British politics is that it stoops that low to gain advantage over an opponent.


As for your own views on the Israeli-Palestine conflict - watch this documentary (made by Trocaire which is an Irish NGO working in the area) - it might give you some insight as to what the issues are like on the ground. https://vimeo.com/221868603


Sorry Mods, I know I'm off topic here, but someone has to set the record straight here. The plight of the Palestinians isn't hogwash.

Rjd2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Looks like Lord Javid has abandoned austerity and will be borrowing heavily.

Neither of the main parties care about fiscal conservatism and to be frank not many in other countries do.
Its a line of attack especially in the UK no matter the party just ignore.

Its going to need a recession for people to actually genuinely give a **** about such a thing. Win power now and **** the next generation basically is the unwritten motto.

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Sure. I would be long time labour leaning but blair and Campbell would have driven me reluctantly away. I dont believe corbyn is beyond criticism in any way, but the idea of a genuinely socialist gov that would tackle the gross wealth inequality in society as well as climate change holds appeal for me. Same with bernie sanders. Ive no huge faith either will ever happen though. Least in my lifetime anyway.

That's a perfectly fine stance tbh.

Its the whitewalkers who seem to have Corbyn on some sort of pedestal. Literally any form of criticism " ITS THE RIGHT WING MEDIA " etc who annoy everyone else. Its very much from the Trump playbook.

These people if they just admitted they consider Jez God it would be better for all.