Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

looks like Comrade McDonnell is going to borrow his way to bankruptcy then.
they'll make the winter of discontent look like a picnic in Richmond Pk.
anybody with anything, a house, an investment, a business, a pension, a few shares will be horrified by the thoughts of this guy as Chancellor. the stuff of nightmares for middle class voters.

UK debt in 2010 when the Tories took over, £1,200 billion and 75% of GDP. UK debt in 2018 £1,800 billion and 85% of GDP.

So in 9 years it it has gone up by £600 billion and gone from 75% of GDP to 85% of GDP. What has the UK have to show for it during the Tory governments? How many new hospitals? How is the Judiciary doing? Are schools any better than before? All this time of austerity and the debt has grown but services has been cut while Labour has said they would do the same but at least the country would have something to show for it.

But its Labour that is living in denial.

UK government debt and deficit: March 2019

Table 1: General government gross debt
UK, financial year ending March 2011 to financial year ending March 2019 and calendar years 2010 to 2018
£ billion3
Financial Years 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15 2015/16 2016/17 2017/18 2018/191
Debt2 1,214.5 1,349.7 1,425.6 1,522.5 1,604.0 1,652.0 1,720.0 1,763.8 1,821.3
as % GDP 75.6 81.8 83.3 85.5 86.5 86.4 86.5 85.3 85.2
Calendar Years 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018
Debt2 1,194.3 1,328.8 1,424.8 1,499.8 1,604.8 1,666.0 1,731.4 1,786.1 1837.5
as % GDP 75.2 80.8 84.1 85.2 87.0 87.9 87.9 87.1 86.8
Source: Office for National Statistics
Notes:
1. 2018/19 refers to the financial year ending March 2019.
2. Consolidated and at nominal values.
3. Unless otherwise stated.

J Mysterio

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Having gotten a serious dose of the DUP the average British person might understand northern Ireland a bit better.

The QIH scandal was pretty big news over yonder also. BBC Spotlight with the exclusive interview with Lunny.

Letwin_Larry

Enzokk wrote: »

UK debt in 2010 when the Tories took over, £1,200 billion and 75% of GDP. UK debt in 2018 £1,800 billion and 85% of GDP.

So in 9 years it it has gone up by £600 billion and gone from 75% of GDP to 85% of GDP. What has the UK have to show for it during the Tory governments? How many new hospitals? How is the Judiciary doing? Are schools any better than before? All this time of austerity and the debt has grown but services has been cut while Labour has said they would do the same but at least the country would have something to show for it.

But its Labour that is living in denial.

UK government debt and deficit: March 2019

Table 1: General government gross debt
UK, financial year ending March 2011 to financial year ending March 2019 and calendar years 2010 to 2018
£ billion3
Financial Years 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 2014/15 2015/16 2016/17 2017/18 2018/191
Debt2 1,214.5 1,349.7 1,425.6 1,522.5 1,604.0 1,652.0 1,720.0 1,763.8 1,821.3
as % GDP 75.6 81.8 83.3 85.5 86.5 86.4 86.5 85.3 85.2
Calendar Years 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018
Debt2 1,194.3 1,328.8 1,424.8 1,499.8 1,604.8 1,666.0 1,731.4 1,786.1 1837.5
as % GDP 75.2 80.8 84.1 85.2 87.0 87.9 87.9 87.1 86.8
Source: Office for National Statistics
Notes:
1. 2018/19 refers to the financial year ending March 2019.
2. Consolidated and at nominal values.
3. Unless otherwise stated.

well why doesn't McDonnell call Javid out on this then?
surely he is aware of these stats.
can McDonnell be so incompetent?

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

well why doesn't McDonnell call Javid out on this then?
surely he is aware of these stats.
can McDonnell be so incompetent?

Weird reply, you said Labour would borrow and I showed you that the Tories have been borrowing all this time. Your reply is to ask me why the Shadow Chancellor isn't stating something? Maybe if you linked a story with quotes from McDonnell I could possibly attempt an answer, but without one you are asking me to read his mind, which I cannot do.

What we do see is that with Labour offering a path to remain the effects of this borrowing will be less than the Tories who will leave and hurt the economy. The irony is that even by borrowing less the Tories could leave the country bankrupt due to their policy on Brexit.

FrancieBrady

J Mysterio wrote: »

The QIH scandal was pretty big news over yonder also. BBC Spotlight with the exclusive interview with Lunny.

BBC Spotlight only broadcasts on BBC NI.

Not sure what your point is otherwise.

Letwin_Larry

Enzokk wrote: »

Weird reply, you said Labour would borrow and I showed you that the Tories have been borrowing all this time. Your reply is to ask me why the Shadow Chancellor isn't stating something? Maybe if you linked a story with quotes from McDonnell I could possibly attempt an answer, but without one you are asking me to read his mind, which I cannot do.

What we do see is that with Labour offering a path to remain the effects of this borrowing will be less than the Tories who will leave and hurt the economy. The irony is that even by borrowing less the Tories could leave the country bankrupt due to their policy on Brexit.

my understanding is the Tories will borrow 10s of £billions (which is small change in the scheme of things), but Mr. McDonnell said in his speech he wanted to borrow 100s of £billions.

that's a hell of a difference imo. socialism doesn't come cheap it seems.

as for Brexit i agree there will be a short to mid-term hit, but we really have no way of knowing exactly how it will effect the UK economy in the long-term.

The Labour Party has got off to a catastrophic start to this election campaign.

Two former Labour MPs urging the public not to instal Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10; a damning indictment of his leadership.

I can only hope that more courageous Labour MPs come forward, resign and issue the same warning.

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

The Labour Party has got off to a catastrophic start to this election campaign.

Two former Labour MPs urging the public not to instal Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10; a damning indictment of his leadership.

I can only hope that more courageous Labour MPs come forward, resign and issue the same warning.

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

Quick question, if the SNP sweap the board in Scotland on a manifesto that proposes a new independance referendum for Scotland, should Borris Johnson as PM agree to allow a referendum go ahead?

Danzy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your answer may be in this tweet. It is more likely to rouse real Labour people to the cause. leaders can be changed, but you can't be endorsing the Tories and claim to have credibility. Had he urged people to spoil votes or vote for a Lib Dem even, it may have had some purchase. Counterproductive it is likely to be.


https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1192347967509925888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1192347967509925888&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058025860%26page%3D53

Not commentating on the content here in this but people like Ash Sarkar will only lead the Labour party to 3rd place and falling over time.

Dyr

Deleted User wrote: »

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

I dunno, I live in Ireland so Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister of the UK doesn't really affect me. I'm quite sanguine about it

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Labour Party has got off to a catastrophic start to this election campaign.

Two former Labour MPs urging the public not to instal Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10; a damning indictment of his leadership.

I can only hope that more courageous Labour MPs come forward, resign and issue the same warning.

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

There will be a lot of payback coming.

Letwin_Larry

Bambi wrote: »

I dunno, I live in Ireland so Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister of the UK doesn't really affect me. I'm quite sanguine about it

i agree. personally i could not care less if Mr. corbyn becomes the next UK PM.
i do not live, vote, pay taxes, or hold investments or property in the UK.

now if he were to become Taoiseach, then i would be horrified at the prospect of his tax, borrow, spend, spend, spend form of socialism. i would seriously consider relocating if they introduced that here.

i can fully understand why UK voters/taxpayers are frightened by Corbyn & McDonnell getting their hands on the levers of power.

Imreoir2

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Quick question, if the SNP sweap the board in Scotland on a manifesto that proposes a new independance referendum for Scotland, should Borris Johnson as PM agree to allow a referendum go ahead?

The Scottish referendum was settled in 2016.

As Scotland is part of the UK, and its the UK parliament that decides whether to implement a referendum that involves its potential break-up, I think Prime Minister Johnson would be right to jettison a new referendum.

Just as with Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon has a very hard time respecting referendum results.

Strazdas

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Quick question, if the SNP sweap the board in Scotland on a manifesto that proposes a new independance referendum for Scotland, should Borris Johnson as PM agree to allow a referendum go ahead?

According to all Brexiteers, yes.

In fact they believe such a decision to be binding, not optional (as per their stance on 2015-16).

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Labour Party has got off to a catastrophic start to this election campaign.

Two former Labour MPs urging the public not to instal Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10; a damning indictment of his leadership.

I can only hope that more courageous Labour MPs come forward, resign and issue the same warning.

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

What, as opposed to 21 being kicked out of the Tory party, their previous government partners being totally against their principle election point, Johnson hiding a report on Russian election interference, cancelling the publication of financial reports, a cabinet minister claiming poor people deserve to die because they lack commen sense.

Leroy42

Strazdas wrote: »

According to all Brexiteers, yes.

In fact they believe such a decision to be binding, not optional (as per their stance on 2015-16).

It makes perfect sense. Fundamentally brexiteers are against a political union, one where decisions are taken centrally that effect areas that those making the decisions don't even represent.

Therefore of course they are opposed to Scotland wanting to have it sovereignty back, the union is stronger together!

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Just as with Brexit, Nicola Sturgeon has a very hard time respecting referendum results.

How about the Tories respecting the clearly undecisiveness of the most recent votes in the UK where there was a 50/50 result in a referendum with no clear question being asked, followed by an election where there was no majority of MP's elected from a single party.

Yet apparently it is the will of the people for a hard Brexit to be just got on with?

Surely if all the MP's in Scotland being from the SNP would be the clearest show of a definite opinion of the population going at the moment?

Letwin_Larry

both the Tories & Lab are displaying unbelievable incompetence. Rarely have i witnessed such a shambolic start to a GE campaign. right now they may well be cancelling one another out, and the ultimate winner could well be which one is the least incompetent/riven/divided/cack-handed.

that said i'm betting we are in for a hung parliament, and possibly a 2nd Ref.

Ah yes Brexit the gift that keeps on giving .....

Enzokk

Leroy42 wrote: »

What, as opposed to 21 being kicked out of the Tory party, their previous government partners being totally against their principle election point, Johnson hiding a report on Russian election interference, cancelling the publication of financial reports, a cabinet minister claiming poor people deserve to die because they lack commen sense.

Don't forget having the longest serving MP stating he could possible not vote for the party he has represented in Parliament for 49 years because of their policies, or picking someone to run for MP who said woman should take more responsibility when it comes to sexual assault.

Leroy42

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

both the Tories & Lab are displaying unbelievable incompetence. Rarely have i witnessed such a shambolic start to a GE campaign. right now they may well be cancelling one another out, and the ultimate winner could well be which one is the least incompetent/riven/divided/cack-handed.

that said i'm betting we are in for a hung parliament, and possibly a 2nd Ref.

Ah yes Brexit the gift that keeps on giving .....

At this stage, if voters really want the change that many would have us believe, then the only option is the smaller parties.

To complain about the state of the country and then vote for the same old is insanity

Enzokk

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

my understanding is the Tories will borrow 10s of £billions (which is small change in the scheme of things), but Mr. McDonnell said in his speech he wanted to borrow 100s of £billions.

that's a hell of a difference imo. socialism doesn't come cheap it seems.

as for Brexit i agree there will be a short to mid-term hit, but we really have no way of knowing exactly how it will effect the UK economy in the long-term.

It doesn't matter about the amount of debt, it is the fact that the Tories will be using debt when they are the party that usually has a neutral budget. They are, after all, the party of the economy and it is always safe in their hands, when the truth is much murkier.

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1192387997007851520?s=20

Letwin_Larry

Leroy42 wrote: »

At this stage, if voters really want the change that many would have us believe, then the only option is the smaller parties.

To complain about the state of the country and then vote for the same old is insanity

possibly, but many voters will argue voting for anything other that Mr. Johnson or Mr. Corbyn is effectively wasting your vote, as they are the only likely PMs.

Tbh there's something about Ms. Swinson i do not like. She's preachy and reminds me of a girl i once knew in Uni. Besides that i find some of her positions anti-democratic.

the SNP are keen to break away from the Union, so that they can join another which seems odd.

quokula

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I agree with that. But compared to blairism is the apposite phrase, how much to the right do you have to swing to earn the endorsement of rupert murdoch? The party is to the left which is what a lot of people in the uk want. A lot of people in Scandinavian countries probably wouldnt see labour policies as all that left wing at all, certainly nowhere near extreme anyway. The lurch to the right on the tory side is much more pronounced imo.

This is something that is very true. The overton window in the UK is so wildly out of kilter compared to most of western and northern Europe. Time and again they bring out a policy that is a bit left of centre, and it's torn apart as unworkable pie in the sky and compared to Venezuela, when it's actually a policy that is in action elsewhere in Europe.

I live in Ireland now but I lived in the UK for years and saw first hand the degradation of the NHS (I had family members working in hospitals), the streets get less safe (through news reports, but also through friends and acquaintances being mugged), ever more homeless people and beggars on the street, and housing getting ever more unaffordable over the last decade as a direct result of government policy. While I couldn't open a newspaper or turn on a news channel without seeing the Tories and the right wing media trying to blame everything on immigrants like me and ignite racism and xenophobia.

I was a long term Lib Dem supporter because of their dedication to fighting climate change, their anti-war credentials, their approach to social issues and their well research, evidence based economic policies. I understood their decision to work with the Tories and moderate and even defended their abandonment of their flagship education policy as a necessary sacrifice as a minority coalition partner. But since 2015, and particularly since the referendum, they seem to have abandoned most of their liberal policies in favour of attacking Labour at every opportunity, and they have been particularly cynical in their co-opting of the remain vote.

Labour, meanwhile, have become the only large party taking the climate crisis seriously, have taken the high ground on progressive social issues while the Lib Dems have put multiple Tory MPs on their front bench, some with particularly questionable track records on Gay rights. Labour are a bit left of where I would be ideally economically, but they're far closer to the centre than the other parties.

Most importantly, on Brexit, they're the only party who've taken a sensible, grown up approach. They recognise the benefits of Europe and want to maintain as close a relationship as possible. However they also recognise the referendum happened, 50% of voters are still in favour of it, and they can't just stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they don't exist, as that's a sure fire way to alienate them and guarantee a hard Brexit. The reality is that the Lib Dems attempts to co-opt the remain vote to get themselves a few dozen seats, while doing nothing to address all the underlying issues in the UK that led to the referendum result, is going to do nothing to help the situation.

robinph

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

the SNP are keen to break away from the Union, so that they can join another which seems odd.

Not odd in the slightest. A vote was held about group A leaving club B which was itself a member of club C. Group A was told that would mean they would also leave club C if they left club B, so they decided not to leave after all.

Since then club B have said they are leaving club C and taking group A with them whatever they think, so it's perfectly reasonable for group A to want to leave club B and rejoin club C which was far bigger and friendlier and didn't park their nuclear submarines in their back yard.

Rjd2

Enzokk wrote: »

Don't forget having the longest serving MP stating he could possible not vote for the party he has represented in Parliament for 49 years because of their policies, o

Candidly he told that Channel 4 News that "40% of the public have not voted for the same party in the last three elections".

"It's not as certain as it has been in previous elections," he added.

"Because Ken used to vote for himself in previous elections!" pointed out Brexiteer Iain Duncan-Smith.

"It depends what sort of campaign they run, if we really do make ourselves the Brexit Party under our brand, my loyalty is going to be strained, absolutely.

"I'm not voting for some crazy right-wing nationalist organisation calling themselves a Tory government, but that I think is laying it on a bit, I don't think that will be where we wind up."

He has said he could not rule out voting for any other party that were not the tories. Huge difference.

I would be glad to be proved wrong have you any impartial links to your statement ? I don't mean propaganda sites like the left wing version of guido fawkes such as novarro media, owen Jones etc.

gooch2k9

robinph wrote: »

Not odd in the slightest. A vote was held about group A leaving club B which was itself a member of club C. Group A was told that would mean they would also leave club C if they left club B, so they decided not to leave after all.

Since then club B have said they are leaving club C and taking group A with them whatever they think, so it's perfectly reasonable for group A to want to leave club B and rejoin club C which was far bigger and friendlier and didn't park their nuclear submarines in their back yard.

Club C actually respects their country and what it has to say. It wouldn't walk out of the Club C Parliament en masse the minute a Scot started speaking.

LuckyLloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Labour Party has got off to a catastrophic start to this election campaign.

Two former Labour MPs urging the public not to instal Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10; a damning indictment of his leadership.

I can only hope that more courageous Labour MPs come forward, resign and issue the same warning.

The prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in No. 10 is frightening. Hopefully this is the start of a wave of catastrophes to undermine the party and its potential for government.

Of course *former* Labour MPs who left the party because it was too Labour for them under Corbyn oppose Corbyn. I fail to see why this is surprising or significant.

Christy42

robinph wrote: »

Not odd in the slightest. A vote was held about group A leaving club B which was itself a member of club C. Group A was told that would mean they would also leave club C if they left club B, so they decided not to leave after all.

Since then club B have said they are leaving club C and taking group A with them whatever they think, so it's perfectly reasonable for group A to want to leave club B and rejoin club C which was far bigger and friendlier and didn't park their nuclear submarines in their back yard.

I would also point out that they will be have a full veto on many issues decided on in club C which is not the case in club B. Including the ability to have a vote to leave the club at any point they want which is not something that club B offers.

Joe_ Public

Rjd2 wrote: »

He has said he could not rule out voting for any other party that were not the tories. Huge difference.

I would be glad to be proved wrong have you any impartial links to your statement ? I don't mean propaganda sites like the left wing version of guido fawkes such as novarro media, owen Jones etc.

In fairness i think on the basis of what he said ken clarke could not in all conscience vote for a johnson led tory party. They are clearly taking a very hard brexit position, refusing to rule out no deal. Can't see how he coukd be on board with that.

hometruths

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Of course *former* Labour MPs who left the party because it was too Labour for them under Corbyn oppose Corbyn. I fail to see why this is surprising or significant.

It is widely reported that Austin left because of the antisemitism row.

If antisemitism is "too Labour" then I think that would be surprising and significant!