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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)
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This popped up on my twitter thread, this makes it very hard for people to claim the problem isn't big.
https://twitter.com/SiDedman/status/1192708942838878208?s=20
A Labour candidate for the Clacton seat has quit over antisemitism. It just won't go away for Labour.
Gideon is an odd name for a fellow making antisemitic remarks.0 -
This popped up on my twitter thread, this makes it very hard for people to claim the problem isn't big.
https://twitter.com/SiDedman/status/1192708942838878208?s=20
A Labour candidate for the Clacton seat has quit over antisemitism. It just won't go away for Labour.
Thats just grim. I see he's claiming he only used the term in a general sense, not specifically towards the jewish councillor, and didnt actually know Shylock was a jewish character. That could be so but the defence of ignorance is no defence at all. They must have selected him knowing this charge was hanging over him. That really is utterly baffling and dismaying.0 -
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3 candidates stood down for Antisemitism, 3 former party ministers saying don't vote for Corbyn.
Labour might implode.0 -
I find it hard to keep believing it is not as bad as depicted by a small amount of MPs when I am not receiving the abuse they are and the only MP who had to have protection at a Labour conference was a Jewish MP.
I find it hard to believe if it is as bad as depicted why it wasn't a big issue before the pro-Palestinian Corbyn became leader.
IF the LP is as rife with AS as is being claimed and IF Corbyn in his 4 years as Leader has failed to stamp it out that begs the question how long has it been rife? How ingrained is it?
Why did Miliband not stamp it out in the 5 years he was leader? Surely as a man of Jewish heritage he would have been attuned to this vein of AS running through the party and done all in his power to erase it?
We seem to be expected to believe that AS is a serious issue within the LP that only became a serious issue at the exact same time as the centrist Blairite faction lost the leadership contest to a pro-Palestinian socialist.
That stretches credibility a bit too far imo.0 -
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3 candidates stood down for Antisemitism, 3 former party ministers saying don't vote for Corbyn.
Labour might implode.
In Scotland, two candidates have stood down for other reasons
1. Labour candidate for online abuse against the sitting MP Joanna Cherry
3. Tory MP Ross Thomson for alleged sexual assault of other MPs0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »I find it hard to believe if it is as bad as depicted why it wasn't a big issue before the pro-Palestinian Corbyn became leader.
IF the LP is as rife with AS as is being claimed and IF Corbyn in his 4 years as Leader has failed to stamp it out that begs the question how long has it been rife? How ingrained is it?
Why did Miliband not stamp it out in the 5 years he was leader? Surely as a man of Jewish heritage he would have been attuned to this vein of AS running through the party and done all in his power to erase it?
We seem to be expected to believe that AS is a serious issue within the LP that only became a serious issue at the exact same time as the centrist Blairite faction lost the leadership contest to a pro-Palestinian socialist.
That stretches credibility a bit too far imo.
I think the charge is that it is more an issue with the left of the party so has come more to the fore with the elevation of corbyn. Part of the problem i think is that from the beginning they conflated the rise in AS allegations as a means of undermining corbyn and so never realised the imperative of doing something to stamp it out. They have been playing catch up all the time.
When i read stories likw jewish people will emigrate if corbyn becomes pm, it feels quite ott and hysterical but the truth is when you see the nec endorsing a candidate who had a complaint against him, its very difficult to argue that they are finally on top of the issue. The question isnt whether this damages them, but by how much.0 -
The entire British civil service, including FO diplomats overseas, is now in Purdah.boring accountant wrote: »I'd like to talk about Brexit if anyone is interested.
So don't expect any Brexit-related developments, at least on or from the UK side of things, outside of the political campaign until 13 December at the earliest.0 -
Capt'n Midnight wrote: »Another step down
The DUP, a great bunch of lads :rolleyes:
It's the holier than thou attitude that really does it.
The DUP's David Simpson is standing down as MP for Upper Bann after a reported affair with a party colleague.
I hesitate to criticise people based on physical appearance but I have to laugh at how Simpson lied in his election literature claiming he'd visited British troops in Afghanistan, but it was later revealed he'd never even travelled there since he was too fat to fit into a flak jacket...0 -
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Away from Labour, Johnson was at a event last night and predictably he seems to have tried to waffle his way around his deal and misled the audience and gone against the statements by his own Home Office and Brexit Secretary.
https://twitter.com/ManufacturingNI/status/1192564837345353728?s=20
The interesting part, other than Johnson not knowing his own deal (which seems normal for him, he is not a detail person so it makes sense he would not understand the consequences of the deal), is that apparently NI is getting the best deal,
https://twitter.com/jneill/status/1192596576084152320?s=20
We have had Cabinet ministers saying it before and trying to back peddle a little when they realize what they just said, but here is Johnson confirming that being in the single market and having access to the UK is the best deal out there.
This makes me wonder why he is pursuing a hard Brexit at all? If it was all just to get into Downing Street, surely he would soften it by now, but it seems to me he is happy to carry on with a hard Brexit so it is more than just a way to get him to be PM.
Does this mean Stephen Barclay is going to have to go back to the select committee and clarify his clarification that there will be checks at the border after all? Dont think so somehow.
And wonder does Johnson come out with paens to free movement when he's sharing a glass with Steve Baker and the hard brexit bunch?0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »We seem to be expected to believe that AS is a serious issue within the LP that only became a serious issue at the exact same time as the centrist Blairite faction lost the leadership contest to a pro-Palestinian socialist.
That stretches credibility a bit too far imo.
Exhibit B: this thread! Suddenly everything Brexit is swept to one side in favour of one divisive topic, centred by sheer coincidence on the main challenger to the dubiously funded PM.
If the Conservatives are not behind this, they would do well to steer clear of the matter, otherwise they risk being dragged down by who/whatever is pulling the strings, and the Lib Dems will be main beneficiary.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »I find it hard to believe if it is as bad as depicted why it wasn't a big issue before the pro-Palestinian Corbyn became leader.
IF the LP is as rife with AS as is being claimed and IF Corbyn in his 4 years as Leader has failed to stamp it out that begs the question how long has it been rife? How ingrained is it?
Why did Miliband not stamp it out in the 5 years he was leader? Surely as a man of Jewish heritage he would have been attuned to this vein of AS running through the party and done all in his power to erase it?
We seem to be expected to believe that AS is a serious issue within the LP that only became a serious issue at the exact same time as the centrist Blairite faction lost the leadership contest to a pro-Palestinian socialist.
That stretches credibility a bit too far imo.
Xenophobic attacks has increased since the Brexit vote. Were these xenophobes created by the result, or were they emboldened by the result of the referendum?
Racist and far right attacks has increased in the USA since Trump's election to president. Were those people created by his election or were they emboldened by it to start openly attacking people and shouting their abuse at their targets?
Antisemitism has always been a problem in the Labour party, but the increase in abuse seems to have increased since Corbyn was elected as leader. He may not be antisemitic, but his handling of antisemitism and his past behaviour (liking that post that has a antisemitic trope in it) seems to have led to those bigots becoming louder and bolder.0 -
Xenophobic attacks has increased since the Brexit vote. Were these xenophobes created by the result, or were they emboldened by the result of the referendum?
Racist and far right attacks has increased in the USA since Trump's election to president. Were those people created by his election or were they emboldened by it to start openly attacking people and shouting their abuse at their targets?
Antisemitism has always been a problem in the Labour party, but the increase in abuse seems to have increased since Corbyn was elected as leader. He may not be antisemitic, but his handling of antisemitism and his past behaviour (liking that post that has a antisemitic trope in it) seems to have led to those bigots becoming louder and bolder.
Corbyn may or may not be an anti Semite, plausible case either way but anti Semitism has flourished with his rise to the top and antisemites have been protected till pressure became unbearable on Labour.
I'm not talking about legitimate opposition to Israel but hardline anti Jewish views, denigration of the holocaust etc.0 -
Corbyn may or may not be an anti Semite, plausible case either way but anti Semitism has flourished with his rise to the top and antisemites have been protected till pressure became unbearable on Labour.
I'm not talking about legitimate opposition to Israel but hardline anti Jewish views, denigration of the holocaust etc.
what's the actual evidence for that?0 -
Joe_ Public wrote: »I think the charge is that it is more an issue with the left of the party so has come more to the fore with the elevation of corbyn. Part of the problem i think is that from the beginning they conflated the rise in AS allegations as a means of undermining corbyn and so never realised the imperative of doing something to stamp it out. They have been playing catch up all the time.
When i read stories likw jewish people will emigrate if corbyn becomes pm, it feels quite ott and hysterical but the truth is when you see the nec endorsing a candidate who had a complaint against him, its very difficult to argue that they are finally on top of the issue. The question isnt whether this damages them, but by how much.
I think this is the nub of the issue. Whatever your point of view it is undeniable that the allegations have gained serious traction, and it will be damaging without question.
I get the sense in this election a lot of votes will be cast as the "best of a bad bunch" - in that context the AS rumours I think will be hugely damaging as the result will be decided by those wavering voters.
It just provides another reason not to vote for Corbyn, (and there are already quite a few for these voters).0 -
CelticRambler wrote: »Exhibit B: this thread! Suddenly everything Brexit is swept to one side in favour of one divisive topic, centred by sheer coincidence on the main challenger to the dubiously funded PM.
If the Conservatives are not behind this, they would do well to steer clear of the matter, otherwise they risk being dragged down by who/whatever is pulling the strings, and the Lib Dems will be main beneficiary.
As ambro25 posted the civil service is in purdah now so getting anything new news regarding Brexit will slow considerably. Our interest in the election is in how it will shape Brexit after the result so while we may be straying from the topic at hand, it still has a effect on Brexit.
If you want to I can link many tweets and articles about Islamophobia in the Tories but they just don't care about it and neither does the majority of the newspapers.
https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1192501165277270016?s=20
As for Brexit and the election, another report blocked by the government and now not able to be released due to the election,
Cabinet Office blocks publication of OBR economic forecastThe government’s top civil servant has blocked publication of a report by the Treasury’s economic forecaster that was expected to show the UK’s public finances have deteriorated over the last eight months.
Mark Sedwill, the head of the Cabinet Office, pulled the plug only an hour before the Office for Budget Responsibility was due to send out documents that were also expected to chart how Brexit uncertainty has worsened the outlook for public finances.
Sedwill told the OBR chairman, Robert Chote, that publication would be in breach of the Cabinet Office’s general election guidance.
The OBR must present its outlook for the public finances to parliament twice in each financial year. It has yet to produce any forecasts during 2019-20.0 -
Joe_ Public wrote: »I think the charge is that it is more an issue with the left of the party so has come more to the fore with the elevation of corbyn. Part of the problem i think is that from the beginning they conflated the rise in AS allegations as a means of undermining corbyn and so never realised the imperative of doing something to stamp it out. They have been playing catch up all the time.
When i read stories likw jewish people will emigrate if corbyn becomes pm, it feels quite ott and hysterical but the truth is when you see the nec endorsing a candidate who had a complaint against him, its very difficult to argue that they are finally on top of the issue. The question isnt whether this damages them, but by how much.
Personally I don't doubt there are antisemitic individuals within the LP - as there will be in the CP, LD and sadly every other aspect of life.
However - I think that the current spate of allegations that it is 'institutional' and Corbyn has failed to tackle it don't hold up to scrutinity and have more to do with the Left being seen as pro-Palestinian and therefore anti-Israel.
A thing like AS does not become 'institutional' in 4 years - why were these concerns not raised when the LP had leader of Jewish heritage? If the LP is rife with AS how did it even have a leader of Jewish heritage?
The pro-Israel lobby has been very successful at characterizing any criticism of the policies of State of Israel as 'antisemitic' which is simply not true and buying into that trope is, I believe, dangerous as Israel - like any other state - should be open to genuine criticism of it's policies without that criticism being shut down by screams that it is antisemitic.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Personally I don't doubt there are antisemitic individuals within the LP - as there will be in the CP, LD and sadly every other aspect of life.
However - I think that the current spate of allegations that it is 'institutional' and Corbyn has failed to tackle it don't hold up to scrutinity and have more to do with the Left being seen as pro-Palestinian and therefore anti-Israel.
A thing like AS does not become 'institutional' in 4 years - why were these concerns not raised when the LP had leader of Jewish heritage? If the LP is rife with AS how did it even have a leader of Jewish heritage?
The pro-Israel lobby has been very successful at characterizing any criticism of the policies of State of Israel as 'antisemitic' which is simply not true and buying into that trope is, I believe, dangerous as Israel - like any other state - should be open to genuine criticism of it's policies without that criticism being shut down by screams that it is antisemitic.
Interesting to see how the Jewish Chronicle's readers viewed Milliband: https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/huge-majority-of-british-jews-will-vote-tory-jc-poll-reveals-1.66001 - basically all that publication cared about was how pro Israel he was and therefore they didn't like him (though they disliked the Lib Dems even more, back when there were still remnants of them being a Liberal party) - had Miliband not been Jewish he would undoubtedly have been described as antisemitic.
The Jewish children's author Michael Rosen has taken a particular interest in the latest smears (mostly because of his past run ins with Ian Austin, who has a record of being a proper racist unlike the person he's accusing) and it's worth reading what he's been saying and sharing.0 -
what's the actual evidence for that?
Here is a BBC article about it,
A guide to Labour Party anti-Semitism claimsWhat is the Labour anti-Semitism row about?
Anti-Semitism was generally not regarded as a big problem in the Labour Party before Jeremy Corbyn's election as leader in September 2015.
Since then, things have changed, with Mr Corbyn and other figures on the left setting a new political direction.
There has been an influx of new members, many of whom are vocal critics of Israel and who believe the UK, along with the US, should be tougher towards Israel, especially regarding its policies towards the Palestinians and its building of settlements in the occupied territories.
I think it is a confluence of events, Corbyn has attracted more new members and a small minority of them are antisemitic. This happened at the same time as Brexit and the emboldening of racist views so it has become amplified.
The problem is not as big as those Labour opponents want to say it is, but at the same time its a problem that should been confronted with more determination by Labour and Corbyn since he became leader.
But see the incidences where Corbyn has been implicated in antisemitism in the article. It is very hard to try and defend him, and I say this as someone who wants to think the best of him.0 -
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Here is a BBC article about it,
A guide to Labour Party anti-Semitism claims
I think it is a confluence of events, Corbyn has attracted more new members and a small minority of them are antisemitic. This happened at the same time as Brexit and the emboldening of racist views so it has become amplified.
The problem is not as big as those Labour opponents want to say it is, but at the same time its a problem that should been confronted with more determination by Labour and Corbyn since he became leader.
But see the incidences where Corbyn has been implicated in antisemitism in the article. It is very hard to try and defend him, and I say this as someone who wants to think the best of him.There has been an influx of new members, many of whom are vocal critics of Israel and who believe the UK, along with the US, should be tougher towards Israel
So basically because of criticisms aimed at the behavior of the state of Israel
That constitutes antisemitism?
Would criticisms aimed at the behavior of the Irish state be evidence of anti Christian views?0 -
Xenophobic attacks has increased since the Brexit vote. Were these xenophobes created by the result, or were they emboldened by the result of the referendum?
Racist and far right attacks has increased in the USA since Trump's election to president. Were those people created by his election or were they emboldened by it to start openly attacking people and shouting their abuse at their targets?
Antisemitism has always been a problem in the Labour party, but the increase in abuse seems to have increased since Corbyn was elected as leader. He may not be antisemitic, but his handling of antisemitism and his past behaviour (liking that post that has a antisemitic trope in it) seems to have led to those bigots becoming louder and bolder.
Xenophobic attacks have increased due to Brexit. This is beyond dispute. Which was the 'brainchild' of members of the Conservative Party. A party that is lead by a man who has written disparagingly about aspects of Islamic culture yet there is nowhere near the level of outrage? This is a man who when told that his own words are being used in threats against members of parliament dismisses that as 'humbug'.
Corbyn liked a post - Johnson wrote an article. But Corbyn is the one encouraging xenophobes and racists??Really?
Muslim women are openly having their hajibs/burqas ripped off by xenophobic idiots threatened by a headscarf and the man who is now PM said that those women look like postboxes but due to Corbyn xenobhobic attacks have increased?
Yes, AS attacks have increased in the UK - but sadly they have also increased across Europe - is that Corbyn's 'fault' too or is it indicative of the rise of the very kind of Nationalistic Right-wing tosh that the current Tory party is feeding in the UK?
Xenopbobia and racism are fed by nationalism. Brexit is English nationalism writ large. I see only one party banging that particular drum (the DUP are always banging a big drum so we can ignore them in this instance.)
If AS 'has always' been a problem in the LP why weren't Miliband, Brown, Blair taken to task over it?
What changed in the meantime?
The answer is simple - this LP leader is openly critical of Israeli policies.0 -
So basically because of criticisms aimed at the behavior of the state of Israel
That constitutes antisemitism?
Would criticisms aimed at the behavior of the Irish state be evidence of anti Christian views?
You have a valid point, but as with a lot of things it all comes down to the optics. Eg, in the circumstances of yet another candidate to fall at the first:Labour candidate steps down after comparing Israel to 'abusive adult'
Kate Ramsden likened Israeli state first to ‘abused child’ and could face party discipline
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/07/labour-candidate-kate-ramsden-steps-down-israel-comparison“To me, the Israeli state is like an abused child who becomes an abusive adult.” The report said she added: “Like child abuse, it has to stop … As we intervene with child abusers, the international community needs to intervene with Israel.”
Now I haven't read her original blog post but it sounds very much like she was trying to make the point that Israel suffered terrible abuse as a child (Nazis etc) and has grown up to be an abusive adult, thinking its own suffering gives it a free pass to make others suffer.
If you strip out the noise, you might think it is actually a pretty fair analogy. But it is a shockingly clumsy analogy for somebody who has aspirations to be a public representative.0 -
Away from Labour, Johnson was at a event last night and predictably he seems to have tried to waffle his way around his deal and misled the audience and gone against the statements by his own Home Office and Brexit Secretary.
According to the video, Johnson is saying that there will be no checks on goods going from NI to GB. But doesn't that make a mockery of any attempt for them to negotiate a trade deal with the EU, or indeed many other countries?
Simply route the product through Ireland and drive, tarriff and quota free to GB.
The EU don't need an agreement with the UK.0 -
So basically because of criticisms aimed at the behavior of the state of Israel
That constitutes antisemitism?
Would criticisms aimed at the behavior of the Irish state be evidence of anti Christian views?Unease within Labour ranks in Parliament intensified in 2017 and 2018 amid concerns the leadership was not doing enough to defend Jewish MPs, such as Luciana Berger, who were themselves the targets of anti-Semitic abuse and death threats.In a further sign of the breakdown in trust between Labour and the Jewish community, the Jewish Labour Movement considered severing its century-old affiliation to the party.
While deciding to retain its ties, the organisation of 2,000 members did pass a motion of no confidence in Mr Corbyn and voted to describe the party as "institutionally anti-Semitic".Ms Berger, who had a police escort at the 2018 Labour Party conference, said she had come to the "sickening conclusion" that the party had become institutionally anti-Semitic and that she was "embarrassed and ashamed" to stay.
Ms Berger's supporters, including deputy leader Tom Watson, claimed she has been "bullied out of her own party by racist thugs".
Among the other defectors, Joan Ryan claimed the party had "become infected with the scourge of anti-Jewish racism" while Ian Austin blamed Mr Corbyn for "creating a culture of extremism and intolerance".
You can try to claim that this is just a plot to oust Corbyn because he isn't establishment enough or not a Blairite. You can try to claim that this is just because antisemitism is criticizing Israel, but it would take some convoluted thinking that there isn't a big problem within Labour and it started when Corbyn was leader.0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Yes, AS attacks have increased in the UK - but sadly they have also increased across Europe - is that Corbyn's 'fault' too ...
Was just about to make the same point: Anti-semitic attacks up 74% in France in 2018. The Force is strong in that Corbyn lad, if some folk are to be believed. :rolleyes:0 -
I think this is the nub of the issue. Whatever your point of view it is undeniable that the allegations have gained serious traction, and it will be damaging without question.
I get the sense in this election a lot of votes will be cast as the "best of a bad bunch" - in that context the AS rumours I think will be hugely damaging as the result will be decided by those wavering voters.
It just provides another reason not to vote for Corbyn, (and there are already quite a few for these voters).
On a slightly cynical vein, i would suggest its infinitely better for labour to have this out in the open during the first week of the campaign than the last. Thats assuming they can put a lid on it quickly and of course they're still left with the problem of how to eradicate this in the long term. Going to be a challenge for sure.0 -
You can try to claim that this is just a plot to oust Corbyn because he isn't establishment enough or not a Blairite. You can try to claim that this is just because antisemitism is criticizing Israel, but it would take some convoluted thinking that there isn't a big problem within Labour and it started when Corbyn was leader.
May I ask how exactly Corbyn is expected to defend someone from death threats issued by members of the public? Is that not a police matter?
Is there any evidence that these threats were issued by members of the LP?
I would also remind you that the PM dismissed death threats against female MPs which parroted the language he himself used ('Surrender Act' for example) as 'humbug'. Why is Johnson not being pilloried for failing to protect female MPs -many of whom are not standing in this GE due to the threats they have received?0 -
Bannasidhe wrote: »Personally I don't doubt there are antisemitic individuals within the LP - as there will be in the CP, LD and sadly every other aspect of life.
However - I think that the current spate of allegations that it is 'institutional' and Corbyn has failed to tackle it don't hold up to scrutinity and have more to do with the Left being seen as pro-Palestinian and therefore anti-Israel.
A thing like AS does not become 'institutional' in 4 years - why were these concerns not raised when the LP had leader of Jewish heritage? If the LP is rife with AS how did it even have a leader of Jewish heritage?
The pro-Israel lobby has been very successful at characterizing any criticism of the policies of State of Israel as 'antisemitic' which is simply not true and buying into that trope is, I believe, dangerous as Israel - like any other state - should be open to genuine criticism of it's policies without that criticism being shut down by screams that it is antisemitic.
I dont believe the labour party is institutionally AS by any means. I also dont believe jeremy corbyn is AS or racist in any way. But that doesnt mean they haven't handled it badly and allowed the sore to fester when opportunities were there to shut it down years ago. You cant claim to have incorporated a zero tolerance policy, or done everything asked of us, as john mcdonnell claimed yesterday, only to have a candidate step down a day later who had a complaint made against him months before. Thats not defensible imo and gives me no pleasure to say that.0 -
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Joe_ Public wrote: »I dont believe the labour party is institutionally AS by any means. I also dont believe jeremy corbyn is AS or racist in any way. But that doesnt mean they haven't handled it badly and allowed the sore to fester when opportunities were there to shut it down years ago. You cant claim to have incorporated a zero tolerance policy, or done everything asked of us, as john mcdonnell claimed yesterday, only to have a candidate step down a day later who had a complaint made against him months before. Thats not defensible imo and gives me no pleasure to say that.
surely a complaint has to be investigated first?0
This discussion has been closed.
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