Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Letwin_Larry

woohoo!!! wrote: »

For the middle of the road average Brit, the choices on offer must be absolutely depressing.

i think for most people it will be choosing between the lesser of 2 evils.

a Tory Govt. taken over by English nationalists or a Lab Govt, run by a cabal of Stalinist Marxists.

not much of a choice i grant you. :eek:

Capt'n Midnight

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I shouldn't have bothered but i did check to see of the tories had added that 196bn to their labour costing plans. Of course they did.

I didn't bother checking it either.

The ongoing civil war within the Tory party is costing £40Bn a year.

That the same as the worst case mismanagement of a one off Labour privatisation using Tory scaremongering figures.

You're right when you said earlier about them copying the US campaigning model right now, who can get away with the biggest lies without any consequences whatsoever. Think there will have to be a reckoning on all this pretty soon if they dont want it to get out of hand, maybe another leveson is needed.

It'll be a dirty campaign. Lots of mud slinging.

Expect lots more misquoting and quoting out of context.

Another Leveson indeed.

Capt'n Midnight

CelticRambler wrote: »

Now I know that current sentiment in Ireland is "we know what side our bread is buttered on" but I do wonder how vulnerable Ireland's electorate might be in a post-Brexit world. We've seen on this thread how our status as "the only English speaking country in the EU" is seen as a selling point; but from my position of exile amongst non-English speakers, I see an awful lot of American influence in ordinary Irish life - forces against which we on the continent are somewhat insulated because of the language barrier.

Lots of EU funding signs on the roads.

Odd note though , on the roads GB cars have an EU flag on the reg. But NI ones don't have that fleg.

Anyway the Irexit candidate got a little over 2,00 votes during the EU elections, didn't even get a fraction of the protest vote that Casey got or of the UK residents which presumably would have included Brexiteers.

Bannasidhe

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i think for most people it will be choosing between the lesser of 2 evils.

a Tory Govt. taken over by English nationalists or a Lab Govt, run by a cabal of Stalinist Marxists.

not much of a choice i grant you. :eek:

Not a choice at all.

Even long-standing members of the Conservative Party are complaining about how it has been taken over by English nationalists.

The Labour Party, on the other hand, has socialists in control. Not Stalinist Marxists.
Socialists who would not be out of place in any Scandinavian government - so hardly the Soviet boogeymen you are trying to claim.

If you are going to sling hyperbolic terms around why not say the Tories have been taken over by English Fascist Moseylities?

Joe_ Public

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I didn't bother checking it either.

The ongoing civil war within the Tory party is costing £40Bn a year.

That the same as the worst case mismanagement of a one off Labour privatisation using Tory scaremongering figures.





It'll be a dirty campaign. Lots of mud slinging.

Expect lots more misquoting and quoting out of context.

Another Leveson indeed.

Its quite possibly already the dirtiest campaign in recent memory i would say and its barely a wet week old. Its going to get a whole lot worse too, they say cummings is taking a backseat but that i believe is only so that he can direct the nastiness and bile from the shadows where he loves to lurk. From where I'm looking ofcom and other regulatory bodies barely look fit for purpose there.

woohoo!!!

woohoo!!! wrote: »

For the middle of the road average Brit, the choices on offer must be absolutely depressing.

I would say that a large percentage of these are fairly apolitical and will simply vote the same way they always do, "grandad voted for (insert party here), Dad voted for (insert party here),I will vote for (insert party here)!
Regardless of what is written on the election leaflets or is said by politicians.


Same as it is here with some FF & FG voters.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would say that a large percentage of these are fairly apolitical and will simply vote the same way they always do, "grandad voted for (insert party here), Dad voted for (insert party here),I will vote for (insert party here)!
Regardless of what is written on the election leaflets or is said by politicians.


Same as it is here with some FF & FG voters.

That may well be changing.

Labour support in much of Northern and midlands England has dropped 25%.

Still in early 30s but neck and neck with the Tories now.

When allegiances change they can do so dramatically.

Same as Labour in Scotland, now polling 4th, once dominated it completely.

Insulting your voter base as chavs, gammons, lumpen proles, white trash, etc may not have been the best approach for so many in the party to take.

It's a replay of Scotland again.

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

I would say that a large percentage of these are fairly apolitical and will simply vote the same way they always do, "grandad voted for (insert party here), Dad voted for (insert party here),I will vote for (insert party here)!
Regardless of what is written on the election leaflets or is said by politicians.


Same as it is here with some FF & FG voters.

There's also a lot of voters who just want the withdrawal bill passed and for the UK to leave the EU. That is going to play into Johnson's hands even in a lot of red seats.

Labour risks more vote splitting from the smaller remain parties than the Conservatives do from the Brexit party. It's going to be an interesting result.

Corbyn has a huge amount of work to do if the polls are right to win this one.

Danzy

theological wrote: »

There's also a lot of voters who just want the withdrawal bill passed and for the UK to leave the EU. That is going to play into Johnson's hands even in a lot of red seats.

Labour risks more vote splitting from the smaller remain parties than the Conservatives do from the Brexit party. It's going to be an interesting result.

Corbyn has a huge amount of work to do if the polls are right to win this one.

Aiming to have Labour in a position to win an election 2 term out might be a better goal given the polls.

theological

woohoo!!! wrote: »

For the middle of the road average Brit, the choices on offer must be absolutely depressing.

I don't think the average poster on this thread represents the "middle of the road average Brit".

What do you think the "middle of the road average Brit" looks like?

@Danzy - any idea how much work the Labour party needs to win an election 2 terms from now? What policy positions would they need to change?

Danzy

theological wrote: »

I don't think the average poster on this thread represents the "middle of the road average Brit".

What do you think the "middle of the road average Brit" looks like?

@Danzy - any idea how much work the Labour party needs to win an election 2 terms from now? What policy positions would they need to change?

The problem for Labour is it is several parties in one.

All parties have that but it is a greater divide here , Corbynites vs Blairities and both on completely different pages to much of working class England.

Add in it is a party increasingly dominated by London and middle class activists whose agenda often does not reflect the wants of its base.

Not sure they can fix it.

I've come to view the Blair victories as the last hurrah for the Labour party, souped up the old car and drove it to pieces to get it over the line.

McGiver

Bannasidhe wrote:

If you are going to sling hyperbolic terms around why not say the Tories have been taken over by English Fascist Moseylities?

I'm afraid they essentially are fascist. Always have been historically (not all of them of course). Thatcher was practically a fascist, just didn't codify one party government into law and didn't shoot people, but other than that very highly authoritarian, police state and militaristic person. You can't really get more fascist than you that within the paradigm of the parliamentary democracy. Let's call it Quasi-fascist.

And the current administration, they are totally authoritarian - rule of law means nothing to them, if they win the GE we'll see a massive erosion of human rights, liberties and increase in police state accompanied by deregulation and privatisation.

Well, Singapore is their model isn't it... That's exactly it.

26000 Elephants

It's difficult to navigate a steady course between the terrible reality that is Brexit and the constant stream of lies posted by brexit apologists.

"pre brexit"?

Again: there is no 'pre' brexit here. Everything we have endured for the past 3 years is "brexit". Every lost £ of investment, every Nissan/Honda/JLR announcement, every rich brexit supporter moving to Singapore.... Its all Brexit.

Strazdas

theological wrote: »

There's also a lot of voters who just want the withdrawal bill passed and for the UK to leave the EU. That is going to play into Johnson's hands even in a lot of red seats.

Labour risks more vote splitting from the smaller remain parties than the Conservatives do from the Brexit party. It's going to be an interesting result.

Corbyn has a huge amount of work to do if the polls are right to win this one.

Don't forget one third of Conservative voters voted Remain in 2016. It would be a big mistake to think of Tory voters as either pro-Johnson's deal or pro-Farage (and nothing else).

McGiver

Strazdas wrote:

Don't forget one third of Conservative voters voted Remain in 2016. It would be a big mistake to think of Tory voters as either pro-Johnson's deal or pro-Farage (and nothing else).

They'll vote LibDems.

theological

McGiver wrote: »

They'll vote LibDems.

Not necessarily. Only those who are unwilling to accept the referendum result and move on will. There are a lot of remain voters who accepted the result post-referendum and simply want to move on. Johnson will probably be keeping their support.

Danzy

Strazdas wrote: »

Don't forget one third of Conservative voters voted Remain in 2016. It would be a big mistake to think of Tory voters as either pro-Johnson's deal or pro-Farage (and nothing else).

People forget the Tory party led Remain in the referendum, their donors financed remain. A majority of their MPs voted Remain.

Understandable for Tories to back Remain, their one time leader Thatcher had a significant part in creating the foundation of the modern EU.

Letwin_Larry

for all those who think there are no Communists at the heart of the Labour party, check out Seumas Milne.
In Oct 2015, the Mr. Corbyn, appointed Seumas Milne as Director of Strategy and Communications.

he's a big fan of Putin & Stalin apparently. and an apologist for ISIS/Al Qaeda.
this is what he thinks of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby, "Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

of course he may be right. i personally disagree, but ultimately it's up to the UK voter to decide.

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-03-20/stalinists-under-siege

http://markhumphrys.com/milne.html

briany

Have to say that Farage's 'ordinary bloke' getup that he puts on while out canvassing is some of the most blatant pandering you'll see. Bonus points if he takes the opportunity to very publicly scoff down some chips or a pint of real ale. Playing to the rubes 101.

Anyway, nice to see him squirm now that the Daily Mail has apparently turned on him and his party.

Bannasidhe

McGiver wrote: »

Thatcher was practically a fascist, just didn't codify one party government into law and didn't shoot people, but other than that very highly authoritarian, police state and militaristic person. You can't really get more fascist than you that within the paradigm of the parliamentary democracy. Let's call it Quasi-fascist.

I lived in the UK during the Thatcher years and it certainly didn't feel like I was living in a Fascist state - It felt very liberal compared to the Ireland of the 8th Amendment, Magdalene Laundries, Moving Statutes etc I had left. Franco would have felt right at home in that Ireland -in Thatcher's UK - not so much as due to grass roots movements she was quite often stopped in her tracks. Also the bloody trains did not run on time.
Authoritarian - yes. Fascist - no, I don't think so.

But that misses the point I was making which is the hyperbolic name calling.
If the LP is 'Stalinist Marxist' then by comparison the CP has accelerated beyond 'Fascist Mosleyite' and is getting the decor for the big rally ready where everyone Hails the Glorious Leader Bojo.

Bannasidhe

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

for all those who think there are no Communists at the heart of the Labour party, check out Seumas Milne.
In Oct 2015, the Mr. Corbyn, appointed Seumas Milne as Director of Strategy and Communications.

he's a big fan of Putin & Stalin apparently. and an apologist for ISIS/Al Qaeda.
this is what he thinks of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby, "Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

of course he may be right. i personally disagree, but ultimately it's up to the UK voter to decide.

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-03-20/stalinists-under-siege

http://markhumphrys.com/milne.html

When I joined the LP back in the 80s I was asked if I had ever been a member of the Communist Party - and If I had I could not join. I did question at the time why they didn't ask if I had ever been a member of the National Front...


But bully for you - you found a member of the LP who you claim is a communist and 'apparently' is a 'big fan' of Putin and Stalin (why is it rarely Lenin?) to 'prove' there is one communist even though no-one that I can see said there wasn't.

Shall we play find the fascist in the CP now in the interests of balance?

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

for all those who think there are no Communists at the heart of the Labour party, check out Seumas Milne.
In Oct 2015, the Mr. Corbyn, appointed Seumas Milne as Director of Strategy and Communications.

he's a big fan of Putin & Stalin apparently. and an apologist for ISIS/Al Qaeda.
this is what he thinks of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby, "Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

of course he may be right. i personally disagree, but ultimately it's up to the UK voter to decide.

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-03-20/stalinists-under-siege

http://markhumphrys.com/milne.html

Always interesting it when people are being attacked to see what kind of selectve quotes are being used. Why not use the full quote on rigby which is as follows:

"The videoed butchery of Fusilier Lee Rigby outside Woolwich barracks last May was a horrific act and his killers' murder conviction a foregone conclusion. Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

Whats actually wrong with that paragraph? I have no great feelings for milne from what ive read and heard of him, but at least i know where he's coming from with his views on rhe east and western imperialism because he's never sought to hide them. Its figures on the other side I'm not so sure about.

26000 Elephants

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Milne is not a communist. The weasel word "apparently" isnt necessary, but par for the course in a failure to establish a point.

Not that anyone asked the question, but you seem to have proved the point that there are, in fact, no communists in the Labour party.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Always interesting it when people are being attacked to see what kind of selectve quotes are being used. Why not use the full quote on rigby which is as follows:

"The videoed butchery of Fusilier Lee Rigby outside Woolwich barracks last May was a horrific act and his killers' murder conviction a foregone conclusion. Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

Whats actually wrong with that paragraph? I have no great feelings for milne from what ive read and heard of him, but at least i know where he's coming from with his views on rhe east and western imperialism because he's never sought to hide them. Its figures on the other side I'm not so sure about.

they mounted the pavement, slamming into the back of Pvt. Lee Rigby, running the poor guy over, then as he lay injured, prostrate and defenceless, they slit his neck, leaving him to bleed out on a busy city road in broad daylight.

and you have no problem with it.
deary me! :mad::o:mad::o

i wont even trying to remind you what Sunday this is.

briany

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i wont even trying to remind you what Sunday this is.

It's a day to remember those who died in World War 1.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

When I joined the LP back in the 80s I was asked if I had ever been a member of the Communist Party - and If I had I could not join. I did question at the time why they didn't ask if I had ever been a member of the National Front...


But bully for you - you found a member of the LP who you claim is a communist and 'apparently' is a 'big fan' of Putin and Stalin (why is it rarely Lenin?) to 'prove' there is one communist even though no-one that I can see said there wasn't.

Shall we play find the fascist in the CP now in the interests of balance?

I don't think Putin is a Communist in the true sense of the political ideal, he was obviously a "good communist" in his previous position in the KGB, but these days, his presidency is not communist in nature.

Authoritarian yes, but not Marxist/Leninist communism.

ancapailldorcha

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

they mounted the pavement, slamming into the back of Pvt. Lee Rigby, running the poor guy over, then as he lay injured, prostrate and defenceless, they slit his neck, leaving him to bleed out on a busy city road in broad daylight.

and you have no problem with it.
deary me! :mad::o:mad::o

i wont even trying to remind you what Sunday this is.

You've had enough warnings at this stage. Banned.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think Putin is a Communist in the true sense of the political ideal, he was obviously a "good communist" in his previous position in the KGB, but these days, his presidency is not communist in nature.

Authoritarian yes, but not Marxist/Leninist communism.

I agree. But then I would also question how many 'communists' are genuine followers of that political ideology - I would be reluctant to class any of the higher echelons of so-called 'communist' states as believing in the workers owning the means of production or to each according to their needs.
I prefer to just call them Totalitarian regardless of what political ideology they claim to follow.
And given that people complain about Corbyn's lack of 'leadership' I doubt even his harshest critic would call him Totalitarian... yet... :P

liamtech

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree. But then I would also question how many 'communists' are genuine followers of that political ideology - I would be reluctant to class any of the higher echelons of so-called 'communist' states as believing in the workers owning the means of production or to each according to their needs.
I prefer to just call them Totalitarian regardless of what political ideology they claim to follow.
And given that people complain about Corbyn's lack of 'leadership' I doubt even his harshest critic would call him Totalitarian... yet... :P

I wouldnt argue that Corbyn is a totalitarian myself - i have posted my criticism of Corbyn based on his approach to Brexit which i believe is wrong, bordering on ludicrous and dangerous - based entirely on how divisive and polarizing UKNI politics has become

I think the argument saying Labor are becoming totalitarian is wrong, but i can see where those claiming this, are coming from

• The Tom Watson debacle from a month ago was ludicrous - Watson comes out and says he wants a second ref before election - Logical, sensible, even if there was no chance of it happening, it was a good suggestion. Result; He has gone against 'the leader'!!! WATSON MUST GO! (explained that there isnt actually a mechanism to remove someone from position of Deputy Leader) ABOLISH POSITION OF DEPUTY LEADER!!!! therefore in summary WATSON MUST GO!!! - abysmal, ludicrous behavior that fuels those opponents of labor who wish to claim it is becoming militant
• Momentum - pure and simple, motivated by corbyn and his Corbyniesta's, have behaved poorly in the past - and again only added to the idea of them being bullies who attack anyone that isnt a Corbyn loyalist

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/len-mcluskey-jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-leadership-contest-len-mccluskey-unite-deselect-mps-clive-a7315636.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/08/activists-to-harness-corbyn-campaign-energy-with-momentum

For me Corbyn is 'the great disappointment' - he could be in number 10 right now, if he had boxed clever, and supported remain especially circa end 2017, mid 2018 - at that stage the writing was on the wall, and remain/peoples vote was gaining ground - but again, no. He thinks he will get brexit done - and now he is leading a crazy campaign for him to do so

He isnt totalitarian, no. But he is far more controlling than other political leaders - it would be a discussion worth having to try and find a leader who was as militant/controlling as Corbyn - how far would you have to go back

And lets face it he has developed a 'proto-Cult of Personality', around himself - and said leadership style is more commonly associated with authoritarianism

Danzy

liamtech wrote: »

I wouldnt argue that Corbyn is a totalitarian myself - i have posted my criticism of Corbyn based on his approach to Brexit which i believe is wrong, bordering on ludicrous and dangerous - based entirely on how divisive and polarizing UKNI politics has become

I think the argument saying Labor are becoming totalitarian is wrong, but i can see where those claiming this, are coming from

• The Tom Watson debacle from a month ago was ludicrous - Watson comes out and says he wants a second ref before election - Logical, sensible, even if there was no chance of it happening, it was a good suggestion. Result; He has gone against 'the leader'!!! WATSON MUST GO! (explained that there isnt actually a mechanism to remove someone from position of Deputy Leader) ABOLISH POSITION OF DEPUTY LEADER!!!! therefore in summary WATSON MUST GO!!! - abysmal, ludicrous behavior that fuels those opponents of labor who wish to claim it is becoming militant
• Momentum - pure and simple their behavior, motivated by corbyn and his Corbyniesta's have behaved poorly in the past - and again only added to the idea of them being bullies who attack anyone that isnt a Corbyn loyalist

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/len-mcluskey-jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-leadership-contest-len-mccluskey-unite-deselect-mps-clive-a7315636.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/08/activists-to-harness-corbyn-campaign-energy-with-momentum

For me Corbyn is 'the great disappointment' - he could be in number 10 right now, if he had boxed clever, and supported remain especially circa end 2017, mid 2018 - at that stage the writing was on the wall, and remain/peoples vote was gaining ground - but again, no. He thinks he will get brexit done - and now he is leading a crazy campaign for him to do so

He isnt totalitarian, no. But he is far more controlling than other political leaders - it would be a discussion worth having to try and find a leader who was as militant/controlling as Corbyn - how far would you have to go back

And lets face it he has developed a 'proto-Cult of Personality', around himself - and said leadership style is more commonly associated with authoritarianism

Corbyn is one of the longestserving supporters of Brexit in the Commons.

On top of that he is faced with the problem of Brexit having its strongest class support in the working class, Large part of Labour's base.

Large chunks of them seem to be deserting the party now.

Think God on high couldn't square the problems Labour have.


If he was all out for remain he'd lose them completely.

That causes other losses as well.