Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Spanish Eyes

Maybe Corbyn's ideology is being supported by Putin, who knows?

Maybe the same is true of Johnson's administration. Who knows?

It is a strange time we are living in, when a country is held to ransom by idealogues or recipients of largesse from Russia and beyond.

There is no other way that anyone with half a brain would plunge an island country into this kind of mayhem.

Forgive me, I have had a couple of glasses of wine, so I may be talking out of my rear end. But the situation is so bizarre that I really don't care anymore what anyone thinks of me and my ramblings now. It is open season.

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

I wouldnt argue that Corbyn is a totalitarian myself - i have posted my criticism of Corbyn based on his approach to Brexit which i believe is wrong, bordering on ludicrous and dangerous - based entirely on how divisive and polarizing UKNI politics has become

I think the argument saying Labor are becoming totalitarian is wrong, but i can see where those claiming this, are coming from

• The Tom Watson debacle from a month ago was ludicrous - Watson comes out and says he wants a second ref before election - Logical, sensible, even if there was no chance of it happening, it was a good suggestion. Result; He has gone against 'the leader'!!! WATSON MUST GO! (explained that there isnt actually a mechanism to remove someone from position of Deputy Leader) ABOLISH POSITION OF DEPUTY LEADER!!!! therefore in summary WATSON MUST GO!!! - abysmal, ludicrous behavior that fuels those opponents of labor who wish to claim it is becoming militant
• Momentum - pure and simple, motivated by corbyn and his Corbyniesta's, have behaved poorly in the past - and again only added to the idea of them being bullies who attack anyone that isnt a Corbyn loyalist

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/len-mcluskey-jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-leadership-contest-len-mccluskey-unite-deselect-mps-clive-a7315636.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/08/activists-to-harness-corbyn-campaign-energy-with-momentum

For me Corbyn is 'the great disappointment' - he could be in number 10 right now, if he had boxed clever, and supported remain especially circa end 2017, mid 2018 - at that stage the writing was on the wall, and remain/peoples vote was gaining ground - but again, no. He thinks he will get brexit done - and now he is leading a crazy campaign for him to do so

He isnt totalitarian, no. But he is far more controlling than other political leaders - it would be a discussion worth having to try and find a leader who was as militant/controlling as Corbyn - how far would you have to go back

And lets face it he has developed a 'proto-Cult of Personality', around himself - and said leadership style is more commonly associated with authoritarianism

A couple of points worth noting i think.

The main architect of the move to oust watson as deputy leader was Jon Lansman. Lansman is indeed the main man behind Momemtum but he is not really all that much a fan of Corbyn.

Also, it was Corbyn himself who actually put a stop to it.

So while that may have been a shabby piece of business, i wouldnt be convinced it actually paints the dim picture of corbyn some imagine.

liamtech

Danzy wrote: »

Corbyn is one of the longestserving supporters of Brexit in the Commons.

On top of that he is faced with the problem of Brexit having its strongest class support in the working class, Large part of Labour's base.

Large chunks of them seem to be deserting the party now.

Think God on high couldn't square the problems Labour have.


If he was all out for remain he'd lose them completely.

That causes other losses as well.

I agree that Corbyn is at heart a Brexiteer - he always has been - what he have is a choice

• PRINCPLES - I don't like the European Union - i have always hated it - my principles are sacrosanct - maybe i can square the circle with my socialist principles - brexit can be good for us if im in charge
• Pragmatism - Brexit is going to seriously damage the United Kingdom, potentially break up the Union, and lead to unemployment- i should be pragmatic and support a peoples vote

Corbyn has, in my humble opinion, always been one to give in to his principles

Well, so be it - Moderate labor MPs have left, support has fallen, and he is potentially handing the Tory's the keys to the UK for another five years - and, possibly even handing the keys to the Opposition to the Lib Dems in the long run thanks to Labours ineffective policy-- and when the recession hits and the Tory's cut benefits and impose austerity, the Right Hon Jeremy will be safe in the knowledge that he stood firm on his principles - bravo

Spanish Eyes

Joe_ Public wrote: »

A couple of points worth noting i think.

The main architect of the move to oust watson as deputy leader was Jon Lansman. Lansman is indeed the main man behind Momemtum but he is not really all that much a fan of Corbyn.

Also, it was Corbyn himself who actually put a stop to it.

So while that may have been a shabby piece of business, i wouldnt be convinced it actually paints the dim picture of corbyn some imagine.

With all due respect to the electorate in Britain, the above, whilst it may be true might require a fair bit of analysis and critical thinking far beyond the soundbytes of today. And therein lies the issue.

Headlines are paramount.

Spanish Eyes

Be better for Labour to let the Tories win on this occasion and self immolate if they go with Brexit in the end.

It will not end well, so let Johnson at it, and then in swoops the saviour of the Nation, the Labour Party. Corbyn will be gone by then.

Danzy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Be better for Labour to let the Tories win on this occasion and self immolate if they go with Brexit in the end.

It will not end well, so let Johnson at it, and then in swoops the saviour of the Nation, the Labour Party. Corbyn will be gone by then.

If there is an agreed deal, it won't be bad, no deal would be a disaster but as we've seen, the MPs who want that can be counted on one hand.

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

A couple of points worth noting i think.

The main architect of the move to oust watson as deputy leader was Jon Lansman. Lansman is indeed the main man behind Momemtum but he is not really all that much a fan of Corbyn.

Also, it was Corbyn himself who actually put a stop to it.

So while that may have been a shabby piece of business, i wouldnt be convinced it actually paints the dim picture of corbyn some imagine.

Well in fairness Lansman is even more militant than Corbyn - but i would count him among those in the Militant category who support Jeremy - granted they may have there differences but he is pro corbyn in my mind

As to Corbyn coming to Watsons rescue, yes i noted that. But he then talked for a time about having multiple deputy leaders? ?? - it is easy to see where this has led to, and now Watson is gone - I just hope that Labor remain the largest party of opposition, and at least then they will rebuild under someone more pragmatic -

jm08

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

for all those who think there are no Communists at the heart of the Labour party, check out Seumas Milne.
In Oct 2015, the Mr. Corbyn, appointed Seumas Milne as Director of Strategy and Communications.

he's a big fan of Putin & Stalin apparently. and an apologist for ISIS/Al Qaeda.
this is what he thinks of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby, "Rigby was a British soldier who had taken part in multiple combat operations in Afghanistan. So the attack wasn't terrorism in the normal sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians."

of course he may be right. i personally disagree, but ultimately it's up to the UK voter to decide.

https://www.workersliberty.org/story/2019-03-20/stalinists-under-siege

http://markhumphrys.com/milne.html

That would be the Right Wing/Zionist Mark Humphreys? He isn't a fan of Michael D. Higgins either. http://markhumphrys.com/michael.d.higgins.html

or David Norris either http://markhumphrys.com/david.norris.html

Quite a few people he doesn't seem to approve of, but he seems to be a fan of David Quinn mind and the mainly loony right.

Humphreys is the Friends of Israel contact in Ireland.

Capt'n Midnight

Danzy wrote: »

If there is an agreed deal, it won't be bad, no deal would be a disaster but as we've seen, the MPs who want that can be counted on one hand.

Best predictions for an agreed deal on current lines is a £70Bn a year hit to the economy.

Still better than no deal.


And the devil is in the detail, no one knows what the UK service industry will get. Or when it will get it.

Danzy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Best predictions for an agreed deal on current lines is a £70Bn a year hit to the economy.

Still better than no deal.


And the devil is in the detail, no one knows what the UK service industry will get. Or when it will get it.

The UK service market it important to the EU, not just the finance part which is strategic for all of Europe and globally important.

Rjd2

Sad to see one of the few Tories that I liked in David Gauke in stepping down.

However on the other hand Keith Vaz is finally ****ing gone. :

He won't be missed.

Capt'n Midnight

Danzy wrote: »

The UK service market it important to the EU, not just the finance part which is strategic for all of Europe and globally important.

Very important.

The EU will cherry pick based on what member states can't replicate.

And once the UK leaves it will be in direct competition with places like India.
Specialist services should be OK.
Generic ones will join the global race to the bottom or be roadkill.


You live in a world where the Deutsche Börse or the Hong Kong Stock Exchange (who bought the London Metal Exchange back in 2012) can make a bid for the London Stock Exchange.
Services can move.

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

Well in fairness Lansman is even more militant than Corbyn - but i would count him among those in the Militant category who support Jeremy - granted they may have there differences but he is pro corbyn in my mind

As to Corbyn coming to Watsons rescue, yes i noted that. But he then talked for a time about having multiple deputy leaders? ?? - it is easy to see where this has led to, and now Watson is gone - I just hope that Labor remain the largest party of opposition, and at least then they will rebuild under someone more pragmatic -

Not sure about lansman, obviously a key figure of the labour left, going back decades but I'm not so sure corbyn really is his man. Complex situation probably.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/ally-jon-lansman-wanted-jeremy-corbyn-removed/28306

This notion of corbyn the cult leader is one i have a bit of trouble with. If he truly is the hard brexiteer he's portayed as, controlling his devoted flock, then i ask myself why he's leading them to a....second referendum. Hardly one of the great cult leaders if he's following the wishes of his membership as opposed to the other way round!

Another not altogether thing to remember is that only for jeremy corbyn - the main reason the tories did not get a majority 2 years ago - brexit would almost certainly have been done by now. Not that I'm suggesting remainers should bow down in thanks before him, as more just an accident of circumstance as anything else.

CelticRambler

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Maybe Corbyn's ideology is being supported by Putin, who knows?

Maybe the same is true of Johnson's administration. Who knows?

It was said by some (maybe many) commentators during the two big votes of 2016 - Brexit & Trump - that the Russians weren't actively supporting either side; rather they were exploiting the inherent flaws in social media's "intelligent" algorithms (especially Facebook's) to maximise the polarisation of the debate and engineer exactly the kind of instability we've seen in the UK and the US since.

I once heard someone saying that Osama Bin Laden was surprised that he brought down the Twin Towers; that the objective was "just" to fly a couple of planes into the upper floors, and the collapse was an unexpected bonus. Every time I've seen Putin smirking during his meetings and press conferences with Trump, I wonder if it's the same: that he set out to cause mischief as revenge for the UN sanctions, and accidentally succeeded beyond his ambitions.

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not sure about lansman, obviously a key figure of the labour left, going back decades but I'm not so sure corbyn really is his man. Complex situation probably.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/ally-jon-lansman-wanted-jeremy-corbyn-removed/28306

This notion of corbyn the cult leader is one i have a bit of trouble with. If he truly is the hard brexiteer he's portayed as, controlling his devoted flock, then i ask myself why he's leading them to a....second referendum. Hardly one of the great cult leaders if he's following the wishes of his membership as opposed to the other way round!

Another not altogether thing to remember is that only for jeremy corbyn - the main reason the tories did not get a majority 2 years ago - brexit would almost certainly have been done by now. Not that I'm suggesting remainers should bow down in thanks before him, as more just an accident of circumstance as anything else.

Ok well look it is complicated and TBH people will have differing views - my own view on these issues would be as follows

Corbyn will now support a referendum, Yet he is not supporting the peoples Vote Movement - WHY? Because a peoples vote is saying STOP BREXIT NOW - 2nd REF - The peoples vote is proceeding on the basis that the majority will be for remain now that they have seen the debacle

Jeremy Corbyn's 2nd Referendum is a choice between remain, and HIS DEAL (as yet non-existant) - now it is still a second referendum which i think is positive. But the idea is pure and simple. It will take 6 months MINIMUM to secure a Corbyn Brexit deal (assuming the EU wish to negotiate it, which granted it being soft they may well do) - but Corbyn will get massive amount of media coverage during this time where he will implicitly sell his deal, as the Sensible Soft Socialist Brexit. Then he comes back, sits on a fence, and lets the country have at it - the people will know by that time that he is for this deal, as he is the one who negotiated and AGREED IT! Its a second Ref on HIS TERMS

Now given that the labour party in government would undoubtedly be in coalition with SNP, LIB DEM, GREEN, PLAID, all of these parties would actively campaign AGAINST a Corbyn deal - which would increase strain on an already barely stable coalition (before anyone suggests im ruling out a Labour majority situation, let me be fair and balance, and Rule it out explicitly - they will not get a majority, and would be incredibly lucky to get to the point of having a working coalition to command a majority)

The point is Corbyn will not stop brexit, he will transform it into a socialist brexit, but still a Brexit - and an unstable coalition like that outlined above could easily collapse before the deal was negotiated - or worse still after it had been agreed - which would allow the tories back in - and we would be back to where we are now, but with the Caviat that the Tories could genuinely claim that their opposition had got their chance and failed - put simple this would be disastrous

What happens if the Corbyn Rainbow coalition collapses midway through the second round? And the Tories get back in?

What happens when the SNP get their second ref, and Corbyn will fight against them - coalition intact?

What happens when Corbyn is going on about how great a Leftwing Brexit is, and the Lib Dems in government with him, see the polls shift in favor of that brexit?

and What happens when half the Labor party urge remain in Corbyns referendum - how will momentum behave - how will lansman behave - ? because Corbyn might sit on the fence but with a wink and a nod (not to mention Corbyn working for 6 months on this) they will know - the leader wants this to pass

On your second point, yes i do give credit to Corbyn for gaining in the 2017 election and denying a conservative majority - no question - but you cannot merely credit corbyn for defeating Mays and Boris's -

On the contrary, there was bravery and genuine 'Country before Party' patriotism from members of the Tory Party, that effectively crippled both May and Boris - it was very admirable

I feel like im gonna end every post on Brexit with the same tired but relevant phrase from now on - so il end by saying

Its complicated

jimmycrackcorm

liamtech wrote: »

Jeremy Corbyn's 2nd Referendum is a choice between remain, and HIS DEAL (as yet non-existant) - now it is still a second referendum which i think is positive. But the idea is pure and simple. It will take 6 months MINIMUM to secure a Corbyn Brexit deal (assuming the EU wish to negotiate it, which granted it being soft they may well do) - but Corbyn will get massive amount of media coverage during this time where he will implicitly sell his deal, as the Sensible Soft Socialist Brexit. Then he comes back, sits on a fence, and lets the country have at it - the people will know by that time that he is for this deal, as he is the one who negotiated and AGREED IT! Its a second Ref on HIS TERMS

Why would it take six months? Boris took only weeks.
Corbyns will be easier as it week keep the UK still close to the EU which they will easily accept.

liamtech

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would it take six months? Boris took only weeks.
Corbyns will be easier as it week keep the UK still close to the EU which they will easily accept.

Good question but i would argue that a Corbyn deal would be completely different to those of May or BJ

Boris's deal was offered to May at one point - thats been widely reported. So its not an exageration to say that it didnt require a massive renegotiation to get from May to BJ - they are similar, kindred deals with the back stop being the main sticking point

But a Corbyn deal would be a wholesale departure in the opposite direction - it would be a minimum of 3 months, and i would suggest probably 6 or more

two right wing deals - then a jump to the far left- will require a proper renegotiation - right back to the start

reslfj

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why would it take six months? Boris took only weeks.
Corbyns will be easier as it week keep the UK still close to the EU which they will easily accept.

Wrong !

The Boris deal is TM's deal with a permanent fixed front-stop and no 'maybe-backstop'. It's without the island of GB in the/a CU i.e. not as close to the EU market. The UK will have to expensively 'buy' some of that EU27 market closeness back.
All worse for the UK and a bit better for the EU27.

The UK will have to pay much more for urgently needed trade benefits, when the EU27 negotiates a future deal. The EU27 is in an even stronger negotiation position as parts of the future deal need ratification by all 27 countries, some regional parliaments and the EP.

The EU27 can wait, but the UK will need to save its exports to the EU27 e.g. cars, lamb, beef, fish and more.

Lars

PS! I don't think Corbyn will get much beyond changing some 'worn out words' with basically synonyms. The patience in EU27 is fast decreasing.

Joe_ Public

Just for reference on what labour is offering re srcond referendum. Worth reminding ourselves of what the lib dems were saying in their 2017 manifesto. Barely any difference at all between them, perhaps why the ld felt they had to push further towards revoke position.


"Liberal Democrats believe the British people should have the final say. That’s why, when the terms of our future relationship with the EU have been negotiated, we will put that deal to a vote of the British people in a referendum, with the alternative option of staying in the EU on the ballot paper. We continue to believe that there is no deal as good for the UK outside the EU as the one it already has as a member. Every vote for the Liberal Democrats in this election is a vote to give the final say to the British people."

theological

Interesting summary of the polls in the Guardian.

Current average 39% Conservative, 27% Labour. That's a huge gap.

Seat translation estimate Tories 370 to 186 Labour. Seat translations are pretty difficult to be fair but even within a margin of error it looks like a Tory majority if things stand as they are today.

In Wales it looks like the Tories will gain 9 seats from Labour and 1 will go to the Lib Dems.

This shows the disconnect between some of the discussion topics on this thread like who would Labour go into coalition with if they won as one poster suggested and the reality which is that Labour don't have a prayer of being in coalition with anyone on these numbers.

I think this is good news. The withdrawal agreement needs to get through the Commons so the UK can move on to other policy priorities and using the increased powers that Brexit will give it effectively for its citizens.

Nody

theological wrote: »

I think this is good news. The withdrawal agreement needs to get through the Commons so the UK can move on to other policy priorities and using the increased powers that Brexit will give it effectively for its citizens.

Care to outline exactly what these increased powers you feel that will come are?

Not that I disagree on needing to move on from Brexit (though even if Tories get a majority which is not sure they would still struggle to get the bill through parliament due to their internal split) but that is not going to happen. After the deal is passed (let's magic wand wave that issue away) it then moves on to the future relationship with EU (FTA, rule alignment, agencies etc.) which will take even more time to hammer out. Followed by trying to strike FTAs around the world (who will in turn require new legislation changes etc.). So the Brexit topic and policies are not going away just because Tories get a majority; they simply move on to the next part of the topic related to Brexit.

Strazdas

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Is anyone surprised that there is even more meddling to have been found in UK politics by Russia?
Somehow "Take back control .. and give it to the Russians" does not have the same ring to it. I long insisted that Brexit is a start of a slippery slide to Putin style oligarchical authoritarian dystopia which Russia became after an economic crisis with people nostalgic for the 'better days'

It is fascinating the brexiteers here not only not seeing the irony but also trying to dismiss foreign interference in their 'democracy'.

The EU helps UK trade on a global stage with incredible access to worlds biggest market right on its doorstep == ENEMY
Russia murders people with gruesome radioactive and biologic poisons on UK soil multiple times == FRIEND

Especially as the hard Brexiteers claim they have "nothing in common with the EU states" and the UK "doesn't belong in the EU".

What have they got in common with Russia? The links are extremely tenuous.

Russman

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Both have populations and media that did not yet get over the death of their empire

Both have extremely rich upper class and a huge chunk of plebs barely scraping by

Putin and co has a history of support extremists on both left and right, they care for money and keeping the plebs from chopping off their heads. Brexit and other chaos in Europe and America helps weaken the institutions that might put a curb on his ambitions, also he can point at West and tell his people choose stability under me or chose chaos.

Brexit is a win, win, win for Putin and his kgb/mafia criminal buddies

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what does he really gain from Brexit ? I mean the the UK will still be in NATO and bound by those treaties. Its not as if the tanks are going to roll over into the EU and drive to Paris anytime soon. Taking Crimea is a whole order of magnitude smaller than taking Europe. Is it just instability for instability's sake and higher gas prices ? If anything, Brexit has brought the EU closer together and less likely to fragment IMO.

liamtech

theological wrote: »

Interesting summary of the polls in the Guardian.

Current average 39% Conservative, 27% Labour. That's a huge gap.

Seat translation estimate Tories 370 to 186 Labour. Seat translations are pretty difficult to be fair but even within a margin of error it looks like a Tory majority if things stand as they are today.

In Wales it looks like the Tories will gain 9 seats from Labour and 1 will go to the Lib Dems.

This shows the disconnect between some of the discussion topics on this thread like who would Labour go into coalition with if they won as one poster suggested and the reality which is that Labour don't have a prayer of being in coalition with anyone on these numbers.

I think this is good news. The withdrawal agreement needs to get through the Commons so the UK can move on to other policy priorities and using the increased powers that Brexit will give it effectively for its citizens.

Well the withdrawal agreement is better than nothing, i have to admit that. The problem is i have not the stomach to say that the Tories winning is good news, as they are 'better than nothing'. Vote Tory, better than nothing! nah

Its complicated (again) but what angers me is that there is a solution to this election, and one which could get a majority in favor of a Peoples Vote - If the opposition supported a wide scale pact they could keep the Torys out - it would be difficult but if only one main opposition party candidate ran against the Tory candidate in most seats, then adding the Brexit party in to the mix, would likely be a much closer election. it would move this election closer to a referendum on Brexit. and that would be a real chance

The problem is no one wants to work with Corbyn - Swinson is intractable on the topic of dealing with Labour- and obviously Labour, regardless of what anyone says or claims, are not running on a STOP BREXIT platform -

As it stands Labour havent a prayer of a majority - and if it keeps going the way it is, they have barely a chance of a coalition.

The best they could achieve would be to hang the parliament -

Very complicated, quite depressing actually

josip

Russman wrote: »

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what does he really gain from Brexit ? I mean the the UK will still be in NATO and bound by those treaties. Its not as if the tanks are going to roll over into the EU and drive to Paris anytime soon. Taking Crimea is a whole order of magnitude smaller than taking Europe. Is it just instability for instability's sake and higher gas prices ? If anything, Brexit has brought the EU closer together and less likely to fragment IMO.

For the past 3 years the UK has been entirely focused on its own internal problems which has given Russia more foreign policy freedom in Iran, Syria and its own backyard.

Bannasidhe

liamtech wrote: »

The problem is no one wants to work with Corbyn - Swinson is intractable on the topic of dealing with Labour- and obviously Labour, regardless of what anyone says or claims, are not running on a STOP BREXIT platform -

As it stands Labour havent a prayer of a majority - and if it keeps going the way it is, they have barely a chance of a coalition.

The best they could achieve would be to hang the parliament -

Very complicated, quite depressing actually

That's not actually true though.
The SNP have stated they are willing to work with Corbyn - and they are, at the moment, a far larger party in Westminster than the LibDems.

It's Swinson who refuses to work with Corbyn. That's her red line. That's her playing politics that could allow the Tories to get back in.

I honestly find it hard to understand why people have a problem with the LP position of putting the option of a deal or Remain to the electorate. In a country that is so bitterly divided it seems to me to be the only sensible option.

The Tories are saying BREXIT ALL ALL COSTS.
The LibDems are saying NO BREXIT - IGNORE THE REFERENDUM VOTE.
Labour are saying ELECTORATE MAKES FINAL DECISION.

Seems to me only one of those options takes into account what the 'will of the people' might actually be.

trellheim

Johnny Mercer MP was really strong on ensuring british soldiers would not be prosecuted for crimes committed -

this proviso was supposed to be in the Queens Speech a few weeks back but was omitted ; now we see PR from the tories "oh we'll do that" ... why didnt they put in the QS then something weird is going on

liamtech

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That's not actually true though.
The SNP have stated they are willing to work with Corbyn - and they are, at the moment, a far larger party in Westminster than the LibDems.

It's Swinson who refuses to work with Corbyn. That's her red line. That's her playing politics that could allow the Tories to get back in.

I honestly find it hard to understand why people have a problem with the LP position of putting the option of a deal or Remain to the electorate. In a country that is so bitterly divided it seems to me to be the only sensible option.

The Tories are saying BREXIT ALL ALL COSTS.
The LibDems are saying NO BREXIT - IGNORE THE REFERENDUM VOTE.
Labour are saying ELECTORATE MAKES FINAL DECISION.

Seems to me only one of those options takes into account what the 'will of the people' might actually be.

Ok well two points

1. With respect, if you read my post i was referring to Labour co-operation with other parties, during the election. Of course when the election occurs, and if they have the numbers collectively, there may well be a Unity Government, or rainbow-ish coalition. However Labour under Corbyn, or perhaps Jeremy and his loyalists have their head in the clouds for this election. They look set to run candidates for every seat (except NI), including Scotland. If Labour wanted to actually co-operate with anti brexit parties there would be electioneering at play. Labor would stand down in seats where the Lib Dems, Plaid, or the greens had a better chance of beating incumbent Tories. and the favor would probably be returned. its not happening, and Jeremy refuses to even address it, or the possibility of coalition.

2. You state that "Labour are saying ELECTORATE MAKES FINAL DECISION" - with respect that is a spin of what labour are actually saying, and likely to campaign on

• Labour win the election - Jeremy is PM
• regardless of the fact that momentum is for a peoples vote, Jeremy will keep Brexit alive, by renegotiating
• He will obviously keep in the media spotlight during said negotiation - tacitly selling his new improved Socialist Brexit
• This will in effect, reduce the negativity of brexit which many now see - Brexit is not a positive, nor can it be. It is negative by differing degrees depending on hard soft etc
• Renegotiation is concluded Jeremy will return and split the country even further by having a referendum. He will also split his party, and create the conditions that existed in the Conservative party before the 2016 Ref. Jeremy will strengthen and reinforce Labours Euro-skeptic segment
• His policy on brexit is divisive and dangerous

Now im not saying the lib dems are correct in their approach, i thought it was a big mistake to stand on revoke rather than 2nd ref. I also have a great deal of sympathy for Defenders of Labour - i am one, regardless of what u think.

But Jeremy has turned from the greatest hope for the Labour party, to its greatest blunder - and possibly a fatal one

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

You state that "Labour are saying ELECTORATE MAKES FINAL DECISION" - with respect that is a spin of what labour are actually saying, and likely to campaign on

• Labour win the election - Jeremy is PM
• regardless of the fact that momentum is for a peoples vote, Jeremy will keep Brexit alive, by renegotiating.

I dont get the argument here. How can you promise a PV without keeping brexit alive in some fashion? What alternative path are you suggesting they follow?

Electorate makes final decision. There's no spin there. Unless you think they're lying, the position is crystal clear, regardless of what jeremy corbyn says or thinks after the election. You can criticise the position for many things i believe, but not that.

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I dont get the argument here. How can you promise a PV without keeping brexit alive in some fashion? What alternative path are you suggesting they follow?

Electorate makes final decision. There's no spin there. Unless you think they're lying, the position is crystal clear, regardless of what jeremy corbyn says or thinks after the election. You can criticise the position for many things i believe, but not that.

Ok well i dont think they are lying - i believe this policy of renegotiate and then a referendum is what Labour are about.

As to your first point. If you subscribe to the idea of Brexit (Any Brexit, soft, hard, no deal) being negative to some degree, then a peoples vote ASAP is the way to go. And polling has shown that the appetite is there for a second ref, and for a remain victory. Brexit has been weakened to a large degree over the last few years, and now would be the moment when it could be cancelled, provided the polls are correct this time (obviously it is to a certain degree unpredictable, but if leave won, after all this, i think most of us would sigh and move on)

By running on Renegotiate FIRST, Referendum SECOND manifesto, which is looking like Labours policy, Corbyn is going to reduce the negativity around brexit - he is effectively saying 'No - Brexit CAN BE POSITIVE if im running the country' - 'If Its Jeremy's Brexit it will be great'

If you want to believe this - fine. honestly im not criticizing your right to chose and have an opinion. But if you are a remainer who believes ANY BREXIT WILL BE BAD, you cannot wholeheartedly endorse JC, or this Labour Parties election plan/manifesto

So while yes, brexit will be alive after the election, it would only be so until the second referendum - If Labour were on board for an immediate Referendum, in the shortest available time, then they and all the Non Tory TBP groups could spend that time highlighting how negative brexit is.

Instead Corbyn through renegotiating is implicitly perfuming Brexit with shroud of legitimacy, and positivity. And he will get to do this throughout his renegotiation, which could be 6 months. And when he supposedly sits on the fence during his Referendum, he will split the Labour vote, with Eurosceptic LP MP's being able to sell Jeremys deal as being great for Britain.

Its so difficult to wrap my head round why he is doing this, but i said yesterday its a case of JC's Principles over-riding pragmatism. and it is damaging Labours credibility - and their chance of gaining seats in this election will suffer