Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

Joe_ Public

schmittel wrote: »

That would be sweet. Is it too much to hope for that this is the start of an informal alliance...

It would be fabulous to see the oppo parties do a backroom deal to target likes of IDS, Raab, Rees Mogg, Patel, Baker, Cash, Bridgen, Francois etc.

If you could take half a dozen Tory MP head cases out of parliament you could change the dynamic significantly.

Would be a shame if they didn't. There are scores of constituencies where it would make sense. Theresa Villiers, for example, is holding a couple of hundred majority from 2017 and looks a sitting duck in a near 60% remain constituency. Plenty of others like that. It would take some hard bargaining to do it i think, but some pressure will come to bear surely.

Rjd2

Enzokk wrote: »

But this election will be tough to win as it seems even the BBC is up to dirty tricks, finding footage from 3 years ago to cover up a mistake Johnson did at the Cenotaph yesterday. This is a crooked and broken democracy that is hurtling towards that cliff, with the state broadcaster favouring the ruling party and the way reports and investigations have been shelved.

https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1193840620701437957?s=20
]

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1193932688169881607

Is their anyone who is not biased that thinks that was not a mere mistake?

All I see is viral tweets from people who people who are going to be biased against the tories and bbc.

It be no different than seeing a Guido fawkes smear and not looking someone with no skin in the game.

Always 2 sides to a story.

Nody

theological wrote: »

[*]Powers over trade policy (customs, tariffs, quotas).

And being the weaker power in every trade deal they will be told what the deal will be; so while they will nominally be in control that controls is purely theoretical. US, China etc. will tell them what the deal will be. Heck even Farao islands who among the few who could be seen as weaker got the exact same deal as today.

Powers over fishing policy.

Not really; if they wish to export any fish into EU (which they currently do for 80% of all they catch) they will need to abide by the EU Fishing policy as it's part of EU law. A fishing policy they previously had a significant say in and will now be rule takers only.

Powers over agriculture policy.

And what exactly do you expect them to do differently? Lower the food standards to US level? Increase GMO usage?

Powers over immigration.

The power of which they had already to a great extent and did not bother to use to manage or control both internal and external immigration? Once again why do you suddenly think that this would change when it did not for 30 years (talk yes; acting tough ala May's vans, yes. But actually act? No.)?

Powers over commercial standards.

Except that they will be a rule taker in practice once again; either they align to EU or US standards as they set the world standards that the rest follow. Once again; what exactly do you expect them to change?

Powers over financial services.

Except that once again they will be bound by international standards and requirements again. US for example will love to take more of the global finance trade and if they wish to work with EU; well take a guess who sets the rules and standards they will need to follow?

All of the above is of course before we start in on things such as the power UK actually had on global policy through their influence in EU. The same regulation that UK voted for 98% of the time since 1996.

To claim that leaving the European Union will not give the UK increased sovereignty in decision making in these areas and more is untruthful.

Actually you've yet to be able to show any area that has an actual significant increase in actual practical sovereignty. There's sovereignty on paper and in practice; you're showing a lot of theory but not in practice.

These are significant areas of power that Westminster will be entirely responsible for. MPs will be responsible for these matters and the public can and will hold them to account for it. They will no longer be able to blame Brussels for it.

While I agree with partially on the responsibilities (Westminster will be responsible 100% but are also today 100% responsible to vote on any law implemented in the UK no matter it's origins) you are grossly overestimating the BS people will accept. They have been spoon feed 40 years of lies and believed them and they will get another 40 years of lies after Brexit. It will be because of EU requirements, EU laws etc. that things are they way they are and the people will keep on swallowing that BS same way as now. Brexit will not change who they vote for when it comes to accountability and it will still be all EU's fault.

I genuinely think that the increased participation in democracy in the UK during the Brexit referendum and afterwards is a hugely positive force that needs to be maintained.

Except that will not continue when all the promises simply don't materialize. 350 million a week to NHS? Controlled immigration (when in fact the immigration is already increasing from the "wrong" countries" as is and will continue to go up even more)? Great new trade deals that will revitalize the UK export companies (well we've already seen how that's going)?

Don't get me wrong here; I'm all for the idea of people holding their politicians accountable and high participation. However the driving causes of Brexit was not a drive for democracy or participation; it was a protest vote and when things don't happen as promised they will simply stop voting again and continue believe the lies they are being told. People are tired of Brexit today yet in reality it's going to be the main line topic for at least a decade if not for longer.

quokula

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1193932688169881607

Is their anyone who is not biased that thinks that was not a mere mistake?

All I see is viral tweets from people who people who are going to be biased against the tories and bbc.

It be no different than seeing a Guido fawkes smear and not looking someone with no skin in the game.

Always 2 sides to a story.

It probably was a mistake, but it’s easy to see why people would think otherwise when there’s been such a pattern. The story of Russian donors to the Tories has had minimal traction in the media whereas the BBC went to the trouble of photoshopping Corbyn in a Russian hat in front of the Kremlin before.

And the coverage Rememberance Sunday, accidentally showing footage of Johnson that made him look good instead of correctly showing footage that made him look bad, is in pretty stark contrast to the attacks on Corbyn a couple of years ago for not being appropriately dressed up or bowing to the correct number of degrees. Not to mention the photoshop some of the papers ran to try and make it look like he was happily skipping past the memorial.

Rjd2

quokula wrote: »

It probably was a mistake, but it’s easy to see why people would think otherwise when there’s been such a pattern. The story of Russian donors to the Tories has had minimal traction in the media whereas the BBC went to the trouble of photoshopping Corbyn in a Russian hat in front of the Kremlin before.

And the coverage Rememberance Sunday, accidentally showing footage of Johnson that made him look good instead of correctly showing footage that made him look bad, is in pretty stark contrast to the attacks on Corbyn a couple of years ago for not being appropriately dressed up or bowing to the correct number of degrees. Not to mention the photoshop some of the papers ran to try and make it look like he was happily skipping past the memorial.

I'd like to see the footage , secret barrister saying it's not that flattering!

On the Russia stuff, it was on the front page of the BBC tbf so that's something although they could have been quicker on it.

Slagging Jezza for not been dressed is absurd yeah, although the freak out over the color of Jez a few years ago nearly justified it. The ****ing hysteria!

The Photoshop? Not seen it, but tbf don't need to in that one, some of the stuff they say about Corbyn is vile and at times slanderous and I say that as someone who is not a major fan.

26000 Elephants

Rjd2 wrote: »

Is their anyone who is not biased that thinks that was not a mere mistake?

I find it hard to believe. it was a mistake.

If Johnson had acted normally, and they made a mistake: outside probability.
Johnson happened to make a bit of a tit of himself and BBC mistalenly use archival footage? Yeah, right.

I dont think there was any dark forces behind it, just a bit of respect for a PM, perhaps?

But while I respect the Barristers opinion, nobody is infallible and he may have called this wrong.

MPFGLB

The Brexit party...what a joke
I knew they wouldn't win a seat against the Tories hence the u turn

They wont win against Labour either as they are not a viable party for government

I hope they lose their deposits ....


Read some ridiculous posts earlier about how British people would vote
Very insulting insinuating the British have no brains and vote like cattle

It is true that all my co workers and mates are very troubled with not knowing who to vote for
Lib Dems have alot of support in London ..probably need to make a pact with Labour but hard to stomach Corbyn as PM
Marginally better than Johnson ...but not sure

And also Labour cannot 'throw' the election as someone saying earlier
If Corbyn loses he says he will resign as leader

theological

Nody wrote: »

Actually you've yet to be able to show any area that has an actual significant increase in actual practical sovereignty. There's sovereignty on paper and in practice; you're showing a lot of theory but not in practice.

More silliness. Legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty.

All of the matters I listed will be matters for MPs in parliament, and for their constituents to hold them to account for.

robinph

26000 Elephants wrote: »

I find it hard to believe. it was a mistake.

If Johnson had acted normally, and they made a mistake: outside probability.
Johnson happened to make a bit of a tit of himself and BBC mistalenly use archival footage? Yeah, right.

I dont think there was any dark forces behind it, just a bit of respect for a PM, perhaps?

But while I respect the Barristers opinion, nobody is infallible and he may have called this wrong.

Am I missing something here? He put a wreath down the wrong way round is all I could see anything about. What other scandal were they trying to cover up for allegedly.

Nody

theological wrote: »

More silliness. Legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty.

No it is not but as usual the Brexiteers can't actually justify it when they are asked for the actual details on the topic. And you've not addressed the fact that UK Government and MPs have had the possibility to limit for example immigration; or how the fishing quotas were distributed etc. but now that will all magically change. Mention a single UK law that the UK parliament has not been part of voting on for implementation?

All of the matters I listed will be matters for MPs in parliament, and for their constituents to hold them to account for.

Why would they suddenly do this out of the blue? Once again theory vs. reality; the whole Brexit process has been at best flawed seeing the amount of outright lies going on yet the people have no issues with that or anything else.

Letwin_Larry

MPFGLB wrote: »

The Brexit party...what a joke
I knew they wouldn't win a seat against the Tories hence the u turn

They wont win against Labour either as they are not a viable party for government

I hope they lose their deposits ....


Read some ridiculous posts earlier about how British people would vote
Very insulting insinuating the British have no brains and vote like cattle

It is true that all my co workers and mates are very troubled with not knowing who to vote for
Lib Dems have alot of support in London ..probably need to make a pact with Labour but hard to stomach Corbyn as PM
Marginally better than Johnson ...but not sure

And also Labour cannot 'throw' the election as someone saying earlier
If Corbyn loses he says he will resign as leader

just spoke with my cousin mid 40s, based in London, but back in Ireland due to her mum being very unwell.
i asked her how she would vote. she is totally confused and fed-up with the whole business of Brexit.

she would normally vote Lab but she's of the opinion that Corbyn is toxic, and she doesn't like Boris. that's just 1 person obviously, but my guess is this confusion and exasperation is widespread over there.
how this will pan out is anybody's guess, but the polls if they are to be believed & translate into actual seats look like a Tory majority.

Sam Russell

theological wrote: »

More silliness. Legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty.

All of the matters I listed will be matters for MPs in parliament, and for their constituents to hold them to account for.

How will that work for NI - not in the SM or CU legally but in them de facto?

Joe_ Public

robinph wrote: »

Am I missing something here? He put a wreath down the wrong way round is all I could see anything about. What other scandal were they trying to cover up for allegedly.

No scandal, just johnson looking his usual scruffy self which is only noteworthy given how such an issue was made about corbyn and his rather drab anorak last year. Headline on one of the red top rags i saw this morning was damning corbyn with faint praise for not disgracing himself again. The usual garbage.

theological

Sam Russell wrote: »

How will that work for NI - not in the SM or CU legally but in them de facto?

There are democratic mechanisms in the deal for the assembly about whether the arrangements continue.

This is why Johnson's deal is actually better than Theresa May's.

Enzokk

robinph wrote: »

Am I missing something here? He put a wreath down the wrong way round is all I could see anything about. What other scandal were they trying to cover up for allegedly.

For me it is the image he is portraying. We know he ruffles his hair and he mumbles, almost everyone knows that is the act. But if he cannot pull it together for the few important days of the year where he needs to be dressed properly and behave respectfully then the message is he isn't really bothered.

As for the BBC, it could well be that a mistake was made, we all make them, but it is very convenient that it happened during a ceremony that people in the UK take very seriously. Look at the big deal made of James McClean not wearing a poppy every year.

Joe_ Public

He also missed the cue for approaching the wreath laying and ended up looking like a complete t!t going early. Fair to say he ballsed the whole thing up completely.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

He also missed the cue for approaching the wreath laying and ended up looking like a complete t!t going early. Fair to say he ballsed the whole thing up completely.

He seems to lack any gravitas or decorum. He has form for this, being very clumsy and awkward in public or when meeting dignitaries (a bit like his pal Trump).

sliabh 1956

My son who lives in UK normally Labour voter cant abide Corybn so will vote Lib Dem. I have other relations who would be children and grandchildren of Irish parents and from generally working class backgrounds are all pro Brexit and will vote Tory. If they are repesentitive of their backgrounds it going to be a Tory landslide. When I have tried to engage with them with regard to Brexit they seem to think once they are out of Europe no more foreginers will be taking English jobs yet they are all employed in prety good jobs. Their grasp of the finer parts of Brexit is shocking to say the least. The seem almost reckless and they just want out whatever the consequences.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

He seems to lack any gravitas or decorum. He has form for this, being very clumsy and awkward in public or when meeting dignitaries (a bit like his pal Trump).

Doesn't seem to matter what he does. His approval rating is climbing again slowly over the past six weeks.

PeadarCo

theological wrote:

More silliness. Legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty.

It's not. On a legal level yes the UK will have more sovereignty. However Brexit on a practical level is all about the UK giving up sovereignty to foreign powers.

On a practical level a huge portion of its laws that relate to anything about trade ie tariffs, standards, immigration etc will be decided by other countries/trade blocs. Whether that trade bloc is the EU(most likely), the US, China, India or some other bloc has yet to be decided.

Look at how negotiations have gone so far with the EU, the bloc over which the UK has most leverage. It's been concession after concession after u turn after u turn. The EUs redlines have held. Boris's in a ditch comment is only the latest in a long long list of promises that have been reneged on. And remember we haven't even got around to trade negotiations yet. So there is plenty more u turns and concessions to come from who ever is in charge of the UK.

The UK will do even worse with any other trade bloc.

MPFGLB

sliabh 1956 wrote: »

My son who lives in UK normally Labour voter cant abide Corybn so will vote Lib Dem. I have other relations who would be children and grandchildren of Irish parents and from generally working class backgrounds are all pro Brexit and will vote Tory. If they are repesentitive of their backgrounds it going to be a Tory landslide. When I have tried to engage with them with regard to Brexit they seem to think once they are out of Europe no more foreginers will be taking English jobs yet they are all employed in prety good jobs. Their grasp of the finer parts of Brexit is shocking to say the least. The seem almost reckless and they just want out whatever the consequences.

I live in London and I and all my work colleagues, friends , etc are pro remain, hate Johnson and are very wary of Corbyn

My cousins in Manchester are pro Brexit. They grew up in Britian ,me in Ireland
These cousins are so pro Brexit that they want out even without a deal . They also own houses that they rent by the room to emigrants. They own their own 3 story houses and believe London is full of elites and should somehow deserve a drop in the economy that no deal would bring . They dont even work full time
I have a massive mortgage in London and work from 7am to 7pm to make ends meet .I have a 3rd level education they dont but they are so much more financially better than me

I think there is an element of jealousy or begrudgery about the whole thing imo

Capt'n Midnight

theological wrote: »

The answer to this question is obvious. Any area the EU takes "exclusive competence" or "shared competence" over (using EU treaty language).

The main powers the UK will gain are those over it's own citizens.

EU health and safety legislation, working time directive, GDPR, European courts etc. will be replaced by the Snooper's Charter and other police state powers.


Powers over trade policy (customs, tariffs, quotas).
90% of tariffs abolished leaves 10% control, tops.

Powers over immigration.
UK has COMPLETE control over non-EU immigration.
The UK can send home any unemployed EU citizen after six months.
The UK can deport EU citizens on the grounds of unlawful immigration, maintaining public order, preventing tax evasion, countering terrorism and preventing repeat criminal offences.


Powers over agriculture policy.
The UK is a food IMPORTER. Removing £3Bn of EU money won't help.


Powers over financial services. LOL this is one is very simple.
Unless the EU grants UK service industries the rights to continue to operate in the EU those service industries are going to have a very bad time. And stuff like the GDPR and the Snoopers Charter won't help

These are significant areas of power that Westminster will be entirely responsible for. MPs will be responsible for these matters and the public can and will hold them to account for it.

FPTP means that nearly 60% of UK seats are safe.
The only people who can hold those MP's accountable are the party leader and the local selection committee.

beggars_bush

MPFGLB wrote: »

I live in London and I and all my work colleagues, friends , etc are pro remain, hate Johnson and are very wary of Corbyn

My cousins in Manchester are pro Brexit. They grew up in Britian ,me in Ireland
These cousins are so pro Brexit that they want out even without a deal . They also own houses that they rent by the room to emigrants. They own their own 3 story houses and believe London is full of elites and should somehow deserve a drop in the economy that no deal would bring . They dont even work full time
I have a massive mortgage in London and work from 7am to 7pm to make ends meet .I have a 3rd level education they dont but they are so much more financially better than me

I think there is an element of jealousy or begrudgery about the whole thing imo

We have an English secretary at work whose mother still lives in London
She is so pro Brexit it is scary

Blames the EU for the lack of manufacturing in the UK and all the foreign workers for something.

I really cannot get a proper rationale out of her for her belief in brexit.

Strazdas

beggars_bush wrote: »

We have an English secretary at work whose mother still lives in London
She is so pro Brexit it is scary

Blames the EU for the lack of manufacturing in the UK and all the foreign workers for something.

I really cannot get a proper rationale out of her for her belief in brexit.

Brainwashed into believing domestic problems caused by her own government are somehow the fault of the EU.

The UK population are in for one hell of a rude awakening once out of the EU. It will be ugly to watch.

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

Brainwashed into believing domestic problems caused by her own government are somehow the fault of the EU.

The UK population are in for one hell of a rude awakening once out of the EU. It will be ugly to watch.

They'll be fine. Mark Carney said so.
A new beginning. A new dawn and new opportunities.
Nothing to fear as FDR would have said.

Capt'n Midnight

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

They'll be fine. Mark Carney said so.
A new beginning. A new dawn and new opportunities.
Nothing to fear as FDR would have said.

Please provide the quote and context.

At no point has he said a deal would be better than remaining.

Think of it as putting a brave face on damage limitation.

reslfj

beggars_bush wrote: »

Blames the EU for the lack of manufacturing in the UK and all the foreign workers for something.

A Tweet from someone in England NE claimed in 2017:

1. The UK has been in the EEC/EU for 45 years
2. Coal mines has been closed during the same 45 years,

so the EU has caused the coal mines to close in the UK.

Twister2

Does Farage mention immigration at all now

Tea Shock

beggars_bush wrote: »

We have an English secretary at work whose mother still lives in London
She is so pro Brexit it is scary

Blames the EU for the lack of manufacturing in the UK and all the foreign workers for something.

I really cannot get a proper rationale out of her for her belief in brexit.

We have a PA in work. She’s from the Republic of Ireland but a die hard Unionist. Also very pro Brexit and Irexit for that matter. I engage with her very little on the subject myself, because well, it could easily lead to becoming a HR matter 🤣

fash

theological wrote: »

More silliness. Legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty.
.

If legal sovereignty is practical sovereignty, then there would be no need or reason to Brexit to "take back control". The UK always retained full legal sovereignty while in the EU.