Should we now support England in the rugby world cup ?

Zzippy · 31-10-2019 2:21pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Anyone who is not PC today is sadly labelled a bigot. Billy has a right to his views as much as anyone else even if people disagree with him. I don't label others bigots if they disagree strongly with my firmly held views on marriage.

People are indeed entitled to their views. However, if airing those views promotes or encourages discrimination, hatred, bigotry or violence against individuals because of gender, race, sexuality, etc, I think that is not kosher, and if you do that people have every right to label you a bigot. Particularly so if you are a public figure with proportionate, or disproportionate influence on others.

31-10-2019 2:25pm

Gamb!t wrote: »

What did he say to label him as such ?

He initially "liked" Falou's instagram post about gays burning in hell. After the media drew attention to this, he said he supports Falou's position from a religious point of view.

Lefty Bicek · 31-10-2019 2:43pm

Zzippy wrote: »

People are indeed entitled to their views. However, if airing those views promores or encourages discrimination, hatred, bigotry or violence against individuals because of gender, race, sexuality, etc, I think that is not kosher, and if you do that people have every right to label you a bigot. Particularly so if you are a public figure with proportionate, or disproportionate influence on others.

Such weak thinking there.

'...entitled to their views... ' is only lip service unless it is predicated on the entitlement to express them. Otherwise no-one would ever know what anyone else's view are, on anything, for fear of offending someone.

It is disingenuous for you to pretend that Billy V and Israel F were simply 'labelled'. Contract termination is not a label.

All this BS about public figures and their alleged influence, I'm so sick of it. That clown Lenihan talking about 'rugby's values', re Folau. Give us a break, he made his international debut at a time when apartheid South Africa was an IRFU tour destination.

Apart from any of that - I will be supporting England for the following reason amongst others...

But even so it is terribly disappointing. We have to thank England who have supported us. It’s funny – when the chips are down the one country that always supports Ireland is England. We’re very grateful for that.

- Philip Browne, 15/11/2017

aloooof · 31-10-2019 3:30pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Such weak thinking there.

'...entitled to their views... ' is only lip service unless it is predicated on the entitlement to express them. Otherwise no-one would ever know what anyone else's view are, on anything, for fear of offending someone.

It is disingenuous for you to pretend that Billy V and Israel F were simply 'labelled'. Contract termination is not a label.

Freedom of expression is not the same as (and does not entitle you to) freedom from consequences.

Zzippy · 31-10-2019 3:34pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Such weak thinking there.

'...entitled to their views... ' is only lip service unless it is predicated on the entitlement to express them. Otherwise no-one would ever know what anyone else's view are, on anything, for fear of offending someone.

It is disingenuous for you to pretend that Billy V and Israel F were simply 'labelled'. Contract termination is not a label.

All this BS about public figures and their alleged influence, I'm so sick of it. That clown Lenihan talking about 'rugby's values', re Folau. Give us a break, he made his international debut at a time when apartheid South Africa was an IRFU tour destination.

Apart from any of that - I will be supporting England for the following reason amongst others...

- Philip Browne, 15/11/2017

Freedom of expression is not absolute. Otherwise anyone could engage in incitement to hatred or violence without repercussion. So let's not pretend otherwise.

I referred to Vunipola being labelled a bigot. I never referred to Folau but thanks for putting words in my mouth. He was sacked for breach of contract, he had a clause in his contract that he ignored and that resulted in that contract being terminated.

Vunipola is still playing rugby. He was simply labelled a bigot. No disingenuity there.

Former Former · 31-10-2019 3:47pm

Bundee Aki liked the post too. Worth remembering.

aloooof · 31-10-2019 3:51pm

Former Former wrote: »

Bundee Aki liked the post too. Worth remembering.

And later said he mistakenly liked it, and apologised for any offence caused. A completely contrasting reaction to that of Billy Vunipola, who doubled-down on it. That context is important.

31-10-2019 3:52pm

Former Former wrote: »

Bundee Aki liked the post too. Worth remembering.

As did most of the big name players of islander descent. They are a religious bunch

Lefty Bicek · 31-10-2019 3:52pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Freedom of expression is not absolute. Otherwise anyone could engage in incitement to hatred or violence without repercussion.

Or worst of all, hurt feelings. About the afterlife.

I referred to Vunipola being labelled a bigot. I never referred to Folau but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Vunipola is still playing rugby. He was simply labelled a bigot. No disingenuity there.

I didn't put words in your mouth at all.

You might have named BV specifically, but you were also very obviously making a general point about 'public figures'. Unless you now want to say that it's different rules for BV than other 'public figures'. Nah.

The connection between BV and IF is natural, since Vunipola was disciplined by his club (not just labelled) as a result of his online support for what Folau was saying.

He was not as you say 'simply labelled a bigot', and therefore you are after all, being disingenuous.

He was sacked for breach of contract, he had a clause in his contract that he ignored and that resulted in that contract being terminated.

Of course, that's not in question.

ClanofLams · 31-10-2019 3:55pm

Former Former wrote: »

Bundee Aki liked the post too. Worth remembering.

Aki likes a lot of religious stuff, just from what I have seen following him on Twitter. I doubt he reads all of it. He said he mistakenly clicked it, when he read it he ‘unliked’. He also clarified he has no problem with gay people and doesn’t share the views offered by Folau and supported by Vunipola. So no comparison to either of those and non story really.

kenmc · 31-10-2019 5:20pm

Gamb!t wrote: »

What did he say to label him as such ?

He agreed, publicly on his Twitter or Instagram or whatever feed, with Israel folau when he posted something about gays going to hell or whatever bile it was he was spouting. Unfortunately he wasn't sanctioned.

alchemist33 · 31-10-2019 5:23pm

If it wasn't for Eddie Jones I'd want England to win. I still might though - I'll see what the gut says on Saturday morning. Last Saturday I thought I wanted NZ to win but the gut actually made me cheer for England.

gypsy79 · 31-10-2019 5:33pm

Has anyone mentioned the d word all too familiar with SA rugby?

England all the way

Lefty Bicek · 31-10-2019 6:13pm

kenmc wrote: »

He agreed, publicly on his Twitter or Instagram or whatever feed, with Israel folau when he posted something about gays going to hell or whatever bile it was he was spouting. Unfortunately he wasn't sanctioned.

He WAS sanctioned.

Skyfloater · 31-10-2019 6:28pm

I think the question could be how could anyone support SA after the bilge they served up in the semis.

Former Former · 31-10-2019 8:00pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Aki likes a lot of religious stuff, just from what I have seen following him on Twitter. I doubt he reads all of it. He said he mistakenly clicked it, when he read it he ‘unliked’. He also clarified he has no problem with gay people and doesn’t share the views offered by Folau and supported by Vunipola. So no comparison to either of those and non story really.

Maybe it's a non-story because we wanted it to be a non-story.

Like, if the difference between Aki and Vunipola is a pretty flimsy "oops I liked it without reading it" story, then I don't think it's fair to be so abusive of Vunipola and give Aki a pass.

I'm not criticising Aki, you understand. Just that Vunipola's religious beliefs are no reason not to support England this weekend.

ClanofLams · 31-10-2019 8:03pm

Former Former wrote: »

Maybe it's a non-story because we wanted it to be a non-story.

Like, if the difference between Aki and Vunipola is a pretty flimsy "oops I liked it without reading it" story, then I don't think it's fair to be so abusive of Vunipola and give Aki a pass.

I'm not criticising Aki, you understand. Just that Vunipola's religious beliefs are no reason not to support England this weekend.

That’s not true. The difference is a firm rebuttal of the beliefs expressed in the post and a firm backing of the beliefs expressed in the post.

That’s a huge difference.

SharpshooterTom · 31-10-2019 9:26pm

There's a lot of Irish people who seemingly want to support England at anything these days, the last Fifa WC, Euro 2020 etc. Even though a lot of English still hate the Irish (well certainly their ulster loyalist sympathising football fans do).

Personally I would be only supporting Ireland. Not interested in what anyone else does, but that's just me.

England are expected to win this at a canter. Currently 4/9 with the bookmakers.

I think also they may start dominating RWC's. They have a population of 55 million so I think I can see them retaining it or doing a three peat with good coaching.

gypsy79 · 01-11-2019 10:49am

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

There's a lot of Irish people who seemingly want to support England at anything these days, the last Fifa WC, Euro 2020 etc. Even though a lot of English still hate the Irish (well certainly their ulster loyalist sympathising football fans do).

Do you know any English people??

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

I think also they may start dominating RWC's. They have a population of 55 million so I think I can see them retaining it or doing a three peat with good coaching.

You should place a large bet on that if you think so. You will get MASSIVE odds. Pay off your mortgage. NZ will be favourites for next RWC

Gamb!t · 01-11-2019 11:25am

Imagine the 6 nations if they do win though

The world champions England vs Ireland.
The world champions England vs Wales.
France vs the world champions England.
Scotland vs the world champions England.
Italy vs the world champions England.

gypsy79 · 01-11-2019 11:28am

And on England ruling the world after this

they cant even afford the bonuses due!!

Dog Murphy · 01-11-2019 12:07pm

aloooof wrote: »

And later said he mistakenly liked it, and apologised for any offence caused. A completely contrasting reaction to that of Billy Vunipola, who doubled-down on it. That context is important.

No it isn't.

I reality Aki only backtracked because some PR guy with the IRFU told him to say he liked the post by mistake.

fryup · 01-11-2019 6:41pm

here's the lyrics if you want to sing along....

♫ Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry he home ♫

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 6:52pm

Dog Murphy wrote: »

No it isn't.

I reality Aki only backtracked because some PR guy with the IRFU told him to say he liked the post by mistake.

Link?

Lefty Bicek · 01-11-2019 6:57pm

fryup wrote: »

here's the lyrics if you want to sing along....

♫ Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry he home ♫

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 7:46pm

fryup wrote: »

here's the lyrics if you want to sing along....

♫ Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry he home ♫

No more than our lads singing Olé Olé, how did England end up with an American Spiritual Gospel song?

Lefty Bicek · 01-11-2019 7:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No more than our lads singing Olé Olé, how did England end up with an American Spiritual Gospel song?

Because to a remarkable degree, they are ignorant of their own folk music.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 8:14pm

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Because to a remarkable degree, they are ignorant of their own folk music.

Seems this is the origin...

England star defends use of well-known slavery song
Chris Oti knew nothing about it until it happened. Ever since then he has been linked to a piece of English rugby lore.
'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' was first belted out, en masse, at Twickenham back in 1988 as England came back from 3-0 down at half-time to defeat Ireland 35-3.

Oti ran in a second half hat-trick and became an instant hit with the home fans. The song, which was popular on the club rugby circuit in Wales and England, rung out as Oti shredded the Irish defence.

Five years later, a discussion on the seminal moment was described as 'slightly racist but in the best possible taste' in the letters section of The Independent.

The Wasps winger's international career last only three years and 13 caps but the song has lived on.

American academics were interviewed for a piece on the song, which was first performed internationally by the Fisk University Jubilee Singers in the 1870s. It was in existence long before the words were committed to paper and toured.

The spiritual has strong links with slavery in the United States and a New York Times article has looked into how it became an anthem for England's rugby team. The article quotes Josephine Wright, a professor of music and black studies at the College of Wooster in Ohio, who says:

"Such cross-cultural appropriations of US slave songs betray a total lack of understanding of the historical context in which those songs were created by the American slave."

Should we now support England in the rugby world cup ?

Comments