Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Why do you keep asking questions that have been well and truly answered?



Let me repeat: As I understand it, the SDLP have stood aside in a small number of constituencies where they have no chance of taking a seat, as have most parties in the North.

That is not a pact, that is not abandoning voters, unless every party bar the Alliance Party have done so. It is a rather silly question that you are asking, not just one that has been answered several times.

Every party bar the Alliance have entered pacts, some, like yourself are indulging fantastic verbal gymnastics trying to deny it isn't a pact. But there you go.

Many many party's run in elections where there is no chance of election to give people who support their policies a voice.

The SDLP have abandoned those people if they are not engaging in a pact. You can't have it every way. Ridiculous.

Stop moaning ffs

Is SF abstentionism the most flogged to death topic on boards?
It’s up there.

Taking their seats would be an utterly futile endeavour and completely pointless in every sense as no MP or party would or could vote the same way as them on any issue. They’d be at the receiving end of worse abuse and disrespect then the SNP receive and we all know this to be true

Why people continue to hang on about it is beyond me.

blanch152

Getting back on topic, interesting article here:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1114/1090951-constituency-profile/

Based on the recent opinion polls, could we see gains for the SDLP in Foyle and South Belfast ousting one each from the extremist parties which are losing support in the polls?

Similarly, will the increase in the SDLP vote give Fermanagh/South Tyrone to the UUP or will the Alliance surge keep it in Sinn Fein hands?

Wouldn't it be great for moderation if the Alliance took North Down and East Belfast.

If everything went well, we could see Sinn Fein lose two seats, the DUP lose three, and the SDLP (2), Alliance (2) and the UUP (1) gaining. That would be a huge boost for normality in Northern Ireland.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Every party bar the Alliance have entered pacts, some, like yourself are indulging fantastic verbal gymnastics trying to deny it isn't a pact. But there you go.

Many many party's run in elections where there is no chance of election to give people who support their policies a voice.

The SDLP have abandoned those people if they are not engaging in a pact. You can't have it every way. Ridiculous.

A pact is a formal written agreement. You have been asked several times to produce evidence of these pacts, and you have failed to do so.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Is SF abstentionism the most flogged to death topic on boards?
It’s up there.

Taking their seats would be an utterly futile endeavour and completely pointless in every sense as no MP or party would or could vote the same way as them on any issue. They’d be at the receiving end of worse abuse and disrespect then the SNP receive and we all know this to be true

Why people continue to hang on about it is beyond me.

Abstensionism suits the SDLP when they want it too, as well. Here is Eastwood on the matter:

Colm Eastwood wrote:

“An empty seat is better than Nigel Dodds, who is one of the architects of the Brexit mess we are in.”

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

A pact is a formal written agreement. You have been asked several times to produce evidence of these pacts, and you have failed to do so.

Ever heard of one of these? You sadly don't get to set the bar on this. Every single journalist on these islands recognises it as a 'pact'. Verbal gymnastics won't change it.

https://www.gregmonforton.com/windsor/personal-injury-lawyer/legaladvice/oral-contracts.html

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ever heard of one of these? You sadly don't get to set the bar on this. Every single journalist on these islands recognises it as a 'pact'. Verbal gymnastics won't change it.

https://www.gregmonforton.com/windsor/personal-injury-lawyer/legaladvice/oral-contracts.html

Apart from the headline, I don't see the word "pact" anywhere in that article. So again, please produce the evidence.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Apart from the headline, I don't see the word "pact" anywhere in that article. So again, please produce the evidence.

:D:D
Now there is no such thing as 'verbal agreements or pacts'.

We'll get nowhere.

I will leave it there.

Dunmhkl

I think the results will be:

SF retain their 7 seats and gain Belfast North.
SDLP gain Belfast South.
Alliance gain Belfast East and North Down.
DUP hold the remaining 7 seats.

liamtech

Ok this is a very heated debate so i cannot address every post made since i last logged on - i will therefore attempt to address each of the arguments made, and refute them

1. This is off topic, and is not to do with the OP

This is nonsense, discussing views on SF is absolutely in line with a discussion of Northern Ireland in the 2019 Election. The most fundamental reason for this is that attacking Sinn Fein will be a VITAL part of the Campaign for every party in Northern Ireland. And the Usual straw men tactic will be used and if i were a voter i would address them as follows

Dont vote for terrorists!! - Im not voting for a terrorist, im voting for a political party that have links to a paramilitary group in the past. This link is no longer relevant to me. As the PIRA no longer exists. A large majority of political parties on this Island has links to Armed struggle in its Gene pool, including the Irish Labour party who United with 'Democratic Left' (DL were born from a split with the Workers party, who were SF - the workers party, who were Official Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Old IRA from before the split with that produced the Provisionals).

They are abstentionist!! - yes they are, i am aware of that, and i still intend to vote for them.

Its a pointless vote then - no it isnt, its my personal choice which you have disagree with.

2. Sinn Fein Is EXTREMIST

No they are not. To those that argue this, its clear that this is your straw man to attack a party that you dislike. But nothing about Sinn Fein is Extreme

Support for a United Ireland is not an extreme position, it is an aspiration laid down in the GFA.

Abstentionism is not extreme, its a PEACEFUL political method, by which a party or group can chose to protest what they see as an unjust situation. You would probably chose NOT to abstain were you in their situation, which is your right. But to say it is extreme to refuse to take a seat is nonsense

Il be accused of rattling on but in terms of policy within NI, SF are actually a very progressive party, seeking to support the Irish language, LGBTQ issues, the rights of Minorities, etc etc - If you believe that these are Extreme Policies then i would retort that it is you that have Extreme views

3. SINN FEIN ARE DIVISIVE

On this point you will think you have home run in criticizing Sinn Fein, but unfortunately it doesnt hold water im afraid. It is not Sinn Fein who are divisive in Northern Ireland, it is the method by which other parties deal with Sinn Fein that foster inter-community division

• Continually referring to Sinn Fein as SF-IRA as though the two were literally the same group -
• refusing to work within Power Sharing, (as the DUP did for many years) , due to SF's links to the IRA
• Bringing up the IRA in every conversation no matter how unrelated it is to the topic being discussed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgkIOrTBW9Q&t=450s
• Attempts at scare mongering in relation to Unionist voters in particular, by making it an US versus THEM argument at every election. This obvious DUP campaign method is at the heart of every election since they began to finally work with SINN FEIN in 2007 - and the DUP bullying other moderate Unionist parties (aided and abetted by the Loyalist Paramilitarists) into standing aside, to allow them to deal with SF - the epitome of 'Politics of Division'
• Within Stormont, Vetoing policy simply because 'SF-IRA' are in favor of said policy

I think those criticizing SINN FEIN need to be more honest here - they dont like Sinn Fein - and they cannot view them as legitimate because of the Troubles - Fair enough, thats your choice - But the usual straw man tactics of attacking sinn fein and labeling them Divisive, extremists, and in relation to abstentionism saying they are pointless, is nonsense

Nidgeweasel

SF ousting Dodds would be incredible.

FrancieBrady

Dunmhkl wrote: »

I think the results will be:

SF retain their 7 seats and gain Belfast North.
SDLP gain Belfast South.
Alliance gain Belfast East and North Down.
DUP hold the remaining 7 seats.

I think SF will drop Foyle and may struggle against a concerted campaign in F/ST if Elliott can find some veral gymnastics of his own to come across as UUP (anti deal but pro remain) and DUP (anti deal and anti Remain)
I also think Alliance will suffer a bit.

They have allowed themselves to be caught in no-mans land in an important election when everyone else was engaging in pacts to secure a result.

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

As a matter of interest, is there another political party that abstains from taking its seats in its main national parliament?

Does it matter if there was or is?

Abstentionism is a policy because SF don't agree that the HOC is the national parliament. I thought that much was clear.

BonnieSituation

Dunmhkl wrote: »

I think the results will be:

SF retain their 7 seats and gain Belfast North.
SDLP gain Belfast South.
Alliance gain Belfast East and North Down.
DUP hold the remaining 7 seats.

I'll have what you're having!

Stop moaning ffs

I cannot make heads nor tails of the DUPs position right now.

Nidgeweasel

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I cannot make heads nor tails of the DUPs position right now.

Flegs. The Union. Etc.

markodaly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Does it matter if there was or is?

Abstentionism is a policy because SF don't agree that the HOC is the national parliament. I thought that much was clear.

Well if there is not one party in all of Europe that abstains from their main national parliament, that certainly confirms that SF is extremist, as they are outliers.

liamtech

markodaly wrote: »

Well if there is not one party in all of Europe that abstains from their main national parliament, that certainly confirms that SF is extremist, as they are outliers.

Can you address the post i made previously - its utter nonsense to suggest that Abstentionism is Extremist

Ok this is a very heated debate so i cannot address every post made since i last logged on - i will therefore attempt to address each of the arguments made, and refute them

1. This is off topic, and is not to do with the OP

This is nonsense, discussing views on SF is absolutely in line with a discussion of Northern Ireland in the 2019 Election. The most fundamental reason for this is that attacking Sinn Fein will be a VITAL part of the Campaign for every party in Northern Ireland. And the Usual straw men tactic will be used and if i were a voter i would address them as follows

Dont vote for terrorists!! - Im not voting for a terrorist, im voting for a political party that have links to a paramilitary group in the past. This link is no longer relevant to me. As the PIRA no longer exists. A large majority of political parties on this Island has links to Armed struggle in its Gene pool, including the Irish Labour party who United with 'Democratic Left' (DL were born from a split with the Workers party, who were SF - the workers party, who were Official Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Old IRA from before the split with that produced the Provisionals).

They are abstentionist!! - yes they are, i am aware of that, and i still intend to vote for them.

Its a pointless vote then - no it isnt, its my personal choice which you have disagree with.

2. Sinn Fein Is EXTREMIST

No they are not. To those that argue this, its clear that this is your straw man to attack a party that you dislike. But nothing about Sinn Fein is Extreme

Support for a United Ireland is not an extreme position, it is an aspiration laid down in the GFA.

Abstentionism is not extreme, its a PEACEFUL political method, by which a party or group can chose to protest what they see as an unjust situation. You would probably chose NOT to abstain were you in their situation, which is your right. But to say it is extreme to refuse to take a seat is nonsense

Il be accused of rattling on but in terms of policy within NI, SF are actually a very progressive party, seeking to support the Irish language, LGBTQ issues, the rights of Minorities, etc etc - If you believe that these are Extreme Policies then i would retort that it is you that have Extreme views

3. SINN FEIN ARE DIVISIVE

On this point you will think you have home run in criticizing Sinn Fein, but unfortunately it doesnt hold water im afraid. It is not Sinn Fein who are divisive in Northern Ireland, it is the method by which other parties deal with Sinn Fein that foster inter-community division

Continually referring to Sinn Fein as SF-IRA as though the two were literally the same group -
refusing to work within Power Sharing, (as the DUP did for many years) , due to SF's links to the IRA
Bringing up the IRA in every conversation no matter how unrelated it is to the topic being discussed - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgkIOrTBW9Q&t=450s
Attempts at scare mongering in relation to Unionist voters in particular, by making it an US versus THEM argument at every election. This obvious DUP campaign method is at the heart of every election since they began to finally work with SINN FEIN in 2007 - and the DUP bullying other moderate Unionist parties (aided and abetted by the Loyalist Paramilitarists) into standing aside, to allow them to deal with SF - the epitome of 'Politics of Division'
Within Stormont, Vetoing policy simply because 'SF-IRA' are in favor of said policy


I think those criticizing SINN FEIN need to be more honest here - they dont like Sinn Fein - and they cannot view them as legitimate because of the Troubles - Fair enough, thats your choice - But the usual straw man tactics of attacking sinn fein and labeling them Divisive, extremists, and in relation to abstentionism saying they are pointless, is nonsense

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

Well if there is not one party in all of Europe that abstains from their main national parliament, that certainly confirms that SF is extremist, as they are outliers.

It doesn't.

But alas.

Dunmhkl

Julian Smith has said that Stormont elections could be held early next year.

Bear in mind folks, under the GFA if nationalist parties get a majority in the next Assembly that will mean that a border poll will be held as it would show to Smith that the majority are voting for nationalism.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Well if there is not one party in all of Europe that abstains from their main national parliament, that certainly confirms that SF is extremist, as they are outliers.

You said they represent the 'extreme sectarians' though.

Some more verbal gymnastics to follow no doubt.

Stop moaning ffs

Dunmhkl wrote: »

Julian Smith has said that Stormont elections could be held early next year.

Bear in mind folks, under the GFA if nationalist parties get a majority in the next Assembly that will mean that a border poll will be held as it would show to Smith that the majority are voting for nationalism.

Don’t think it outlines which criteria have to be met for a SoS to be satisfied there’s a majority to call one but that would be a pretty good indicator alright.

Dunmhkl

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Don’t think it outlines which criteria have to be met for a SoS to be satisfied there’s a majority to call one but that would be a pretty good indicator alright.

Exactly.

United Ireland by 2021.

blanch152

Dunmhkl wrote: »

Julian Smith has said that Stormont elections could be held early next year.

Bear in mind folks, under the GFA if nationalist parties get a majority in the next Assembly that will mean that a border poll will be held as it would show to Smith that the majority are voting for nationalism.

I don't think a border poll will be even contemplated by the SOS until such time as avowedly nationalist parties secure more than 50% of the popular vote. Even then, an SOS would want to see that in more than one election so that he can be sure it is "likely" that a border poll would pass.

Stop moaning ffs

Dunmhkl wrote: »

Exactly.

United Ireland by 2021.

I want to see UI within my lifetime. But come down for a minute. In no universe will it be 2021.
Maybe within 5 years.

Massive and I mean truly massive amounts of work to do before even thinking about it. And a citizens assembly itself can take a full year.

All the work and evidence for and against would have to be prepared first to even present to CA to debate.

FrancieBrady

Dunmhkl wrote: »

Julian Smith has said that Stormont elections could be held early next year.

Bear in mind folks, under the GFA if nationalist parties get a majority in the next Assembly that will mean that a border poll will be held as it would show to Smith that the majority are voting for nationalism.

No. The SoS is not under any obligation to call a poll. He could call one tomorrow if he wished. He only has to be satisfied that it might pass and the only way to prove him wrong on that, is to actually hold a poll.

FrancieBrady

Lucid Talk poll showing:
8% drop for DUP 36% - 28%
5% drop for SF 29% - 24%
8% rise for Alliance
and SDLP rising 4.5%

BonnieSituation

Dunmhkl wrote: »

Julian Smith has said that Stormont elections could be held early next year.

Bear in mind folks, under the GFA if nationalist parties get a majority in the next Assembly that will mean that a border poll will be held as it would show to Smith that the majority are voting for nationalism.

It won't. Stop peddling this nonsense. The GFA says no such thing. A majority in the assembly is one demonstration of a wish for unity but in and of itself does not confirm that fact.

LoughNeagh2017

I won't be voting as usual, if my politicians had their way they would have me hanged from the gallows. The only politician I have any respect for is Gerry Adams, a man with a back bone, oh and I like Donald Trump too.

BonnieSituation

LoughNeagh2017 wrote: »

I won't be voting as usual, if my politicians had their way they would have me hanged from the gallows. The only politician I have any respect for is Gerry Adams, a man with a back bone, oh and I like Donald Trump too.

Good luck.