Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You issued a threat. Plain and simple. You can deny reality as you are wont to do or you can withdraw the threat. Why would my safety be compromised for alleging Sinn Fein fraud?

Report the post if you have the perception that somebody threatened the safety of an anonymous poster on the internet.
I would consider making a fool of yourself getting caught telling porkies to be dangerous to your image as a serious political commentator who generally require some credibility. So it is 'safer' not to tell lies or get caught telling them.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Report the post if you have the perception that somebody threatened the safety of an anonymous poster on the internet.
I would consider making a fool of yourself getting caught telling porkies to be dangerous to your image as a serious political commentator who generally require some credibility. So it is 'safer' not to tell lies or get caught telling them.

More waffle from you Francie. I would be happy for you simply to withdraw the threat rather than attempt to excuse it.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

More waffle from you Francie. I would be happy for you simply to withdraw the threat rather than attempt to excuse it.

I am not withdrawing something I didn't make.

You are simply and ridiculously deflecting away from getting caught telling porkies.

Good loser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not withdrawing something I didn't make.

You are simply and ridiculously deflecting away from getting caught telling porkies.

Wouldn't you be better off criticizing SF for not taking up their seats in London, thereby ensuring the implementation of Brexit by the Tories, with disastrous consequences for their voters and all citizens in NI, than indulging ad nauseam in the above waffle?

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not withdrawing something I didn't make.

You are simply and ridiculously deflecting away from getting caught telling porkies.

Porkies? Every party except Sinn Fein alleged voting fraud in the election. Ballots were found pre filled in favour of Sinn Fein. Just because there was no prosecution for electoral fraud does not mean no voter fraud took place, in the same way that just because no prosecutions for collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane have taken place does not mean that no collusion took place.
If someone said to you it would be safer for you not to allege collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane how would you perceive that other than as a threat.

FrancieBrady

Good loser wrote: »

Wouldn't you be better off criticizing SF for not taking up their seats in London, thereby ensuring the implementation of Brexit by the Tories, with disastrous consequences for their voters and all citizens in NI, than indulging ad nauseam in the above waffle?

SF are well able to defend not taking their seats. (I personally don't see the merits of abstentionsm)

What is waffle about calling out somebody making unfounded claims on a po;itics forum?

Even the Electoral Fraud Commission cannot verify that fraud takes place. It is normally claimed when somebody loses in a close election. If the SDLP win Foyle as expected, SF will probably allege it. Par for the course 'sour grapes'.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF are well able to defend not taking their seats. (I personally don't see the merits of abstentionsm)

What is waffle about calling out somebody making unfounded claims on a po;itics forum?

Even the Electoral Fraud Commission cannot verify that fraud takes place. It is normally claimed when somebody loses in a close election. If the SDLP win Foyle as expected, SF will probably allege it. Par for the course 'sour grapes'.

If you think claims of voting fraud are normal you need to look beyond what is considered normal in a Sinn Fein.
Again your logic is that if a crime cannot be proved it must mean a crime has not taken place. So by your logic for 40 years Jean Mc Conville was not murdered because a crime could not be proven.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

If you think claims of voting fraud are normal you need to look beyond what is considered normal in a Sinn Fein.
Again your logic is that if a crime cannot be proved it must mean a crime has not taken place. So by your logic for 40 years Jean Mc Conville was not murdered because a crime could not be proven.

There is a perception of voting fraud. There is NO proof of voter fraud so saying something like this is a lie:

Safesurfer wrote:

if the same level of voter fraud which occurred in 2017 doesn’t happen again.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a perception of voting fraud. There is NO proof of voter fraud so saying something like this is a lie:

Absolutely not. A lie is something that is verifiably untrue. A perception is how something is understood, interpreted or regarded. My assertion is that the only way to interpret a proxy vote in Sinn Fein areas 17 times the national average is widespread fraud. You can call that a lie if you can credibly explain the massive discrepancy. Otherwise suck it up as a logical perception.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Absolutely not. A lie is something that is verifiably untrue. A perception is how something is understood, interpreted or regarded. My assertion is that the only way to interpret a proxy vote in Sinn Fein areas 17 times the national average is widespread fraud. You can call that a lie if you can credibly explain the massive discrepancy. Otherwise suck it up as a logical perception.

So show us where anybody proved that proxy voting (which is legal and done everywhere) was used fraudulently?

I am a patient man, take your time, sleep on it and get back to us when you can prove it. Otherwise it didn't take place and is just an allegation or lie.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So show us where anybody proved that proxy voting (which is legal and done everywhere) was used fraudulently?

I am a patient man, take your time, sleep on it and get back to us when you can prove it. Otherwise it didn't take place and is just an allegation or lie.

Round in circles again Francie. Why is proxy voting 17 times higher in Sinn Fein dominated areas?

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Round in circles again Francie. Why is proxy voting 17 times higher in Sinn Fein dominated areas?

Sinn Fein are masters at getting their vote out, they are renowned for it. They actively tell people about the proxy option and how to vote.




It is not illegal. and it is not fraud.

Here is what the Electoral Officer said:

Chief Electoral Officer Virgina McVeigh told the Belfast Telegraph the system for considering each absent voting application was overseen centrally by her and was robust.

She said it was vitally important people had confidence in the election process and they worked to ensure each application was valid before allowing an absent vote.

"I would encourage anyone with information in relation to any suggestion of impropriety to contact me immediately," she said.

If you have info, and you seem to do (that you have decided to keep to yourself) then read that last line carefully from the CEO

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So just rumour and easy allegations is all you have. Which neatly ties into what officials say about this, it is a 'perception' rather than anything factual.

Carry on.

Just like the perception Gerry Adams was on the army IRA council.
Electoral fraud was/is widespread in Northern Ireland. There is a Liverpool University study specifically into the subject that you can check out.

Why a political party with an armed wing might have been more persuasive at “getting the vote out” I surely don’t have to explain to you.

Were SF the only party to engage in electoral fraud? Certainly not.

Does the Foyle election result where SF unexpectedly won by a small margin, where SF dominated wards had 17 times the national average of proxy votes and where bin bags stuffed with pre filled votes in favour of the Sinn Fein candidate were found and where every other party involved in the election except SF alleged voter fraud indicate voter fraud?

No just business as usual for SF.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Just like the perception Gerry Adams was on the army IRA council.
Electoral fraud was/is widespread in Northern Ireland. There is a Liverpool University study specifically into the subject that you can check out.

Why a political party with an armed wing might have been more persuasive at “getting the vote out” I surely don’t have to explain to you.

Were SF the only party to engage in electoral fraud? Certainly not.

Does the Foyle election result where SF unexpectedly won by a small margin, where SF dominated wards had 17 times the national average of proxy votes and where bin bags stuffed with pre filled votes in favour of the Sinn Fein candidate were found and where every other party involved in the election except SF alleged voter fraud indicate voter fraud?

No just business as usual for SF.

What would you do if you wanted fraud suspicions to fall on a particular party checklist...

1. Organise for bags 'stuffed' full of pre-filled ballots to be found.

*Would the finding of these not indicate a failed attempt at fraud?

Al you are doing here is bandying around familiar sour grapes allegations which have no substance and which have not been found to be true by any official agency. I.E. the people who have access to the facts.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What would you do if you wanted fraud suspicions to fall on a particular party checklist...

1. Organise for bags 'stuffed' full of pre-filled ballots to be found.

*Would the finding of these not indicate a failed attempt at fraud?

Al you are doing here is bandying around familiar sour grapes allegations which have no substance and which have not been found to be true by any official agency. I.E. the people who have access to the facts.

You are like Chemical Francie! No American tanks in Baghdad, no electoral fraud in Foyle!

Then blaming bin bags of ballots being found as an attempt to accuse Sinn Fein of electorate fraud by others.

Don’t use all the tinfoil on that head piece Francie, it’s nearly Christmas.

BonnieSituation

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are like Chemical Francie! No American tanks in Baghdad, no electoral fraud in Foyle!

Then blaming bin bags of ballots being found as an attempt to accuse Sinn Fein of electorate fraud by others.

Don’t use all the tinfoil on that head piece Francie, it’s nearly Christmas.

You've been back and forth with this fraud thing.

I'm sure you can provide us with some links to proof and assertions etc. You seem very certain.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are like Chemical Francie! No American tanks in Baghdad, no electoral fraud in Foyle!

Then blaming bin bags of ballots being found as an attempt to accuse Sinn Fein of electorate fraud by others.

Don’t use all the tinfoil on that head piece Francie, it’s nearly Christmas.

I think it demeans the electoral process to make unsubstantiated allegations.

SF themselves make them about Unionists and I would look for the same proof of them.

This is the Politics forum, if you are asked to back up a claim it is expected of you to do that or withdraw it.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it demeans the electoral process to make unsubstantiated allegations.

SF themselves make them about Unionists and I would look for the same proof of them.

This is the Politics forum, if you are asked to back up a claim it is expected of you to do that or withdraw it.

It is my opinion that the evidence points to electorate fraud in the Foyle election for the reasons I have outlined before.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It is my opinion that the evidence points to electorate fraud in the Foyle election for the reasons I have outlined before.

Finally, we get as close as we are probably going to get to a withdrawal of the original falsehood.

Maybe don't make claims you cannot back up in future and you won't have to make embarassing clarifications.

As it is, it is ONLY your opinion and isn't backed by any official source anywhere.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally, we get as close as we are probably going to get to a withdrawal of the original falsehood.

Maybe don't make claims you cannot back up in future and you won't have to make embarassing clarifications.

As it is, it is ONLY your opinion and isn't backed by any official source anywhere.

It is not a falsehood. Just because there were no prosecutions for fraud doesn’t mean fraud did not occur as I have explained to you.
The electoral commission has this to say about perceptions of fraud in NI.


“ A lack of prosecutions may reflect difficulties in gathering evidence in support of successful prosecutions or may be accounted for by direct or indirect threats of intimidation. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of the measures put in place to prevent fraud are impossible to gauge primarily because there is no readily available benchmark against which they can be measured.


There is, however, a body of research evidence regarding perceptions of electoral fraud, which might
be regarded as a useful proxy indicator of success in the absence of data regarding changes in the actual frequency of offences. Moreover, addressing people’s perceptions of fraud is a valuable objective in its own right – particularly if confidence in the integrity of the electoral process is to be maintained and enhanced. Boosting public confidence in the robustness of the electoral process has the potential to increase levels of participation and deter those intent on committing fraud.”


Surveys undertaken on both voters and presiding officers found up to 11% of respondents had direct experience of electoral malpractice.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It is not a falsehood. Just because there were no prosecutions for fraud doesn’t mean fraud did not occur as I have explained to you.
The electoral commission has this to say about perceptions of fraud in NI.


“ A lack of prosecutions may reflect difficulties in gathering evidence in support of successful prosecutions or may be accounted for by direct or indirect threats of intimidation. It therefore follows that the success or otherwise of the measures put in place to prevent fraud are impossible to gauge primarily because there is no readily available benchmark against which they can be measured.


There is, however, a body of research evidence regarding perceptions of electoral fraud, which might
be regarded as a useful proxy indicator of success in the absence of data regarding changes in the actual frequency of offences. Moreover, addressing people’s perceptions of fraud is a valuable objective in its own right – particularly if confidence in the integrity of the electoral process is to be maintained and enhanced. Boosting public confidence in the robustness of the electoral process has the potential to increase levels of participation and deter those intent on committing fraud.”


Surveys undertaken on both voters and presiding officers found up to 11% of respondents had direct experience of electoral malpractice.

Safesurfer, you made the claim:

Safesurfer wrote:

if the same level of voter fraud which occurred in 2017 doesn’t happen again.

Nobody anywhere has shown eveidence of ANY LEVEL of fraud in the Foyle election of 2017

Therefore your allegation is false = a falsehood, lie, non fact, sensationalism, sour grapes...call it what you want.
You tried to repesent a picture of a party stuffing ballot boxes with false votes.

You have failed.

Fraud takes place everywhere. The simple FACT is nobody knows, not you or anyone with the actual ability to assess and investigate, what that 'level' is.

ancapailldorcha

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You are like Chemical Francie! No American tanks in Baghdad, no electoral fraud in Foyle!

Then blaming bin bags of ballots being found as an attempt to accuse Sinn Fein of electorate fraud by others.

Don’t use all the tinfoil on that head piece Francie, it’s nearly Christmas.

Next snide comment and you will be banned. Cut it out.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is easy to make allegations when you lose a close elections and the public impression of 'fraud' that Safesurfer seems to be suffering from was addressed by the people who drew up the Electoral Fraud Act.



Seems it is more of a perception than anything real. SF accuses Unionists of it, SDLP accuse SF, Unionists accuse SF...all of them when they lose.

That extract you quoted should raise serious alarm bells.

When it says that fraud is hard to detect, one possible implication is that is so because it is easy to get away with it.

cameramonkey

blanch152 wrote: »

That extract you quoted should raise serious alarm bells.

When it says that fraud is hard to detect, one possible implication is that is so because it is easy to get away with it.

I think you are correct, it is easy and all political grouping engage in it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That extract you quoted should raise serious alarm bells.

When it says that fraud is hard to detect, one possible implication is that is so because it is easy to get away with it.

Chief Electoral Officer seems happy that the checks and balances in Proxy voting are adequate.

If the suggestion is that people are stuffing enough bogus electoral forms into ballot boxes then I fail to see why nobody has been caught doing it in a way big enough to swing an election.

SF make the same claims in close constituencies, I think most of it is sensational sour graping to be honest.

SafeSurfer

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Safesurfer, you made the claim:



Nobody anywhere has shown eveidence of ANY LEVEL of fraud in the Foyle election of 2017

Therefore your allegation is false = a falsehood, lie, non fact, sensationalism, sour grapes...call it what you want.
You tried to repesent a picture of a party stuffing ballot boxes with false votes.

You have failed.

Fraud takes place everywhere. The simple FACT is nobody knows, not you or anyone with the actual ability to assess and investigate, what that 'level' is.

We know that the LEVEL of proxy voting in Sinn Fein dominated areas is 17 times the national average. That proxy voting rose from 300 to over 1000, that there were multiple reports of people going to polling stations to be told their vote had already been cast,

Every major party with representatives on the ground, with the exception of Sinn Fein as well as a significant number of voters have alleged voter fraud.


Your statement that there is no evidence of ANY LEVEL of fraud in the Foyle election of 2017 is clearly untrue when valid voters were turned away from polling stations after being told that their ballots had already been cast.

That is evidence of voter fraud. i.e. someone not entitled to use these voters ballots, using these voters ballots.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-40294387

circadian

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally, we get as close as we are probably going to get to a withdrawal of the original falsehood.

Maybe don't make claims you cannot back up in future and you won't have to make embarassing clarifications.

As it is, it is ONLY your opinion and isn't backed by any official source anywhere.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0613/882433-election-investigation/

This coincides with every election cycle until this one, where the local Sinn Fein volunteer (well known to those in Derry) would always ask if I was still away or back home. I'm no longer on the register but I wouldn't be surprised if my vote was cast for me in some way.

I'd say if there was fraud in Foyle, it wouldnt be on any large scale.

FrancieBrady

SafeSurfer wrote: »

We know that the LEVEL of proxy voting in Sinn Fein dominated areas is 17 times the national average. That proxy voting rose from 300 to over 1000, that there were multiple reports of people going to polling stations to be told their vote had already been cast,

Every major party with representatives on the ground, with the exception of Sinn Fein as well as a significant number of voters have alleged voter fraud.


Your statement that there is no evidence of ANY LEVEL of fraud in the Foyle election of 2017 is clearly untrue when valid voters were turned away from polling stations after being told that their ballots had already been cast.

That is evidence of voter fraud. i.e. someone not entitled to use these voters ballots, using these voters ballots.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-40294387

I said there is no 'official' figure on the 'level' of voting fraud in Foyle.

You claimed it happened to a 'level' that swung the election.

Yet curiously, to this time and date you have not shown anything other than a healthy appetite for allegation and gossip.

If there is fraud in proxy voting, which is perfectly legal, then how hard is that to check? The CEO has publicly stated that she has confidence in it as I have shown in the link.

FrancieBrady

circadian wrote: »

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0613/882433-election-investigation/

This coincides with every election cycle until this one, where the local Sinn Fein volunteer (well known to those in Derry) would always ask if I was still away or back home. I'm no longer on the register but I wouldn't be surprised if my vote was cast for me in some way.

I'd say if there was fraud in Foyle, it wouldnt be on any large scale.

Smacks a bit of Regina Doherty claiming she had 40 people alleging child abuse by IRA men, that came to nothing as well.

It is easy to make these claims but if 'people where coming to Durkan', then there was clearly a trail for police to investigate to see if somebody had voted for them. Yet nothing happened.

circadian

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Smacks a bit of Regina Doherty claiming she had 40 people alleging child abuse by IRA men, that came to nothing as well.

It is easy to make these claims but if 'people where coming to Durkan', then there was clearly a trail for police to investigate to see if somebody had voted for them. Yet nothing happened.

Dunno, I'd take my mother's word over claims on a twitter account. She makes a good point, why is someone from Sinn Fein heading to a known Sdlp house and asking if the fella that emigrated, who is still registered, is still away.