Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

maccored

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Should SF step back from this ekwction. As there MP will not take there seats and use there votes in Westminster should they give the SDLP and the Alliance party a clear run. These votes could be crucial in the next Parliament and could swing many votes on Brexit. These seats could be a counter balance to the DUP.

In the interest of NI and the Irish people in general should the SF stand aside

thats just being discriminatory and back to the good old days.

Instead, let people decide themselves. If they vote for SF then they'll know they won't be sitting in Westminster

maccored

L1011 wrote: »

A policy they changed in 1955, 1982, 1983, 1985 and 1986 (ROI Councils, Stormont, European Parliament, NI Councils, Dáil).

It is not some precious set-in-stone element of the party if its been changed 5 times already!

considering 1986 was when the GFA era SF leadership really started coming to the fore, you aren't actually saying much there at all. that version of SF have never changed it in the 33 years since

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

We are arguing over which is the worst and second-worst outcome to Brexit.

I also said that if we got to the stage where those were the two options, it was a really bad outcome for this island. Do you agree?

Answer my question first. Do you object to Boris's deal? You seemed to suggest that SF should be in Westminster fighting it earlier.

If you do, what is your 'solution' to the problem?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody who is partitionist needs Sinn Fein to be 'pragmatic' on his behalf, needs them to do something to get the outcome he wants?

Is that what you require of them? I think you will be sorely disappointed on that score.

I see you didnt answer the question.

Why do SF stand for elections for another country that they don't want to interfere in? These two points contradict each other.

They still collect a salary and expenses from a job they don't do.

maccored

markodaly wrote: »

I see you didnt answer the question.

Why do SF stand for elections for another country that they don't want to interfere in? These two points contradict each other.

They still collect a salary and expenses from a job they don't do.

have you ever read any history? Here - i even googled it for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstentionism

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I see you didnt answer the question.

Why do SF stand for elections for another country that they don't want to interfere in? These two points contradict each other.

They still collect a salary and expenses from a job they don't do.

Do yourself a favour before coming on these threads and look up what elected SF MP's do for their constituents, would you?

Representation isn't just standing up in Westminster and speaking.

markodaly

Berserker wrote: »

How? The DUP and even the Irish TDs are getting plenty of air time in the UK. SF aren't even on the field of play. FGs stance on Brexit has stolen a lot of SF's thunder.



More down to the fact that people have grown tired of their brand of angry politics. The fact that they have no interest in getting into government in the RoI and just want to sit on the opposition bench, taking hefty salaries and expenses from the tax payer, isn't helping either. Their current leadership is incredibly weak. I'm shocked that they, Mary-Lou and MON, have been allowed to continue as leaders for this long.

Have to agree with this.

SF are coming across as a party who are not interested in power or government and is more than content to sit on the sidelines berating and hectoring others for decisions they refuse to make themselves. At least others are stepping up to the mantle and making the hard decisions that government require of them.
Many commentaries on boards resembles this attitude as well.

I have said this already but this was quite apparent during the last EU/Local elections, where politicans of all ilk, let their guards down during the counts and spoke rather frankly about their feelings and the feedback they get from the electorate...all except SF, who still persist with this robotic, non-human way of talking to people through the media. To take a sporting parlance, they are overcoached and dont come across as likeable or even human, just a cog in a machine.

SF are elected in the ROI, NI and Westminister. Yet, in two of those jurisdictions, they are not taking their seats and in the ROI, after the last election, they ran away from any possible coalition government.

People are not stupid and will see them for what they are. A more organised version of Solidarity/PBP with a Tricolour wrapped around themselves. In other words they are not a serious party ready for government.

If SF were not able to get into government in the ROI during the worst of the last crash, then the hopes of them doing the same, when they have been a) anonymous on the Brexit debate and b) the economy is much stronger now then expect them to lose both seats and votes in the next elections in NI and ROI.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do yourself a favour before coming on these threads and look up what elected SF MP's do for their constituents, would you?

Representation isn't just standing up in Westminster and speaking.

So what is it?

Parish pump politics?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So what is it?

Parish pump politics?

Call it whatever you want but it is satisfying their electorate for a few decades now.

But you guys know better because your economic prosperity is threatened. How cringe is that?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG's stance on Brexit is taken from SF's initial stance, FG were against special status for NI.

Eh, no.

Trying to claim victory on behalf of SF for work the Government, Dept. of Foreign Affairs (who are the best in their class) and FG/FF have done is really really stretching it.

As they say, Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Call it whatever you want but it is satisfying their electorate for a few decades now.

But you guys know better because your economic prosperity is threatened. How cringe is that?

What are you on about? I didnt mention economics at all. Dont make this into another UI thread and take it off-topic.

However, I see you didn't answer the question.

If SF do more for their constituents than take their seats in Westminister and represent them in the HoC, then what exactly do they do instead?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Eh, no.

Trying to claim victory on behalf of SF for work the Government, Dept. of Foreign Affairs (who are the best in their class) and FG/FF have done is really really stretching it.

As they say, Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan.

Anyone who pays proper attention to northern Ireland and not just through a partitionist selfish prism would remember the many words spoken when Brexit was first mooted.
And FG were very much against where we have ended up and were forceably cajoled by SF to seek special status.
You might not give credit, but then, you don't have a vote in the Westminster elections coming up.
I would also advise not to view the lack of an executive through a FG/Dublin media prism, as once again those on the ground view it very differently.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

What are you on about? I didnt mention economics at all. Dont make this into another UI thread and take it off-topic.

However, I see you didn't answer the question.

If SF do more for their constituents than take their seats in Westminister and represent them in the HoC, then what exactly do they do instead?

Talk to a SF member or look it up. You are an 'expert' yet you are in search of information on your chosen subject...it's called 'research' my friend.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Talk to a SF member or look it up. You are an 'expert' yet you are in search of information on your chosen subject...it's called 'research' my friend.

So, the answer to my simple question is merely 'Google it'

If you cannot stand by your words, perhaps don't write them in the first place.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anyone who pays proper attention to northern Ireland and not just through a partitionist selfish prism would remember the many words spoken when Brexit was first mooted.
And FG were very much against where we have ended up and were forceably cajoled by SF to seek special status.
You might not give credit, but then, you don't have a vote in the Westminster elections coming up.
I would also advise not to view the lack of an executive through a FG/Dublin media prism, as once again those on the ground view it very differently.

Do you have a link for this, or are we talking fantasy stuff again?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So, the answer to my simple question is merely 'Google it'

If you cannot stand by your words, perhaps don't write them in the first place.

Anyone with a smattering of genuine (not selfish) interest would know that stuff Mark.

Sorry, I'm having a glass of wine and I'm not going to do basic, very basic research for you.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Answer my question first. Do you object to Boris's deal? You seemed to suggest that SF should be in Westminster fighting it earlier.

If you do, what is your 'solution' to the problem?

Of course I object to Boris’ deal. It is not good for Ireland, not good for Northern Ireland, not good for the UK and not good for the EU.

It is slightly better than no-deal, but not by a huge amount.

The only Irish person I have heard crowing that it is a great deal is you. The Taoiseach has said that no Brexit would be better.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course I object to Boris’ deal. It is not good for Ireland, not good for Northern Ireland, not good for the UK and not good for the EU.

It is slightly better than no-deal, but not by a huge amount.

The only Irish person I have heard crowing that it is a great deal is you. The Taoiseach has said that no Brexit would be better.

So, you missed the bit where I said 'if the UK are gonna Brexit'?

Of course 'no Brexit' would be better.

I'll ask again...if the UK is going to Brexit do you think there is something better for the island of Ireland than the deal negotiated? Because once upon a time, like Enda, you didn't think special status for NI and a sea border was a good thing in the event of Brexit.

Bass Reeves

maccored wrote: »

thats just being discriminatory and back to the good old days.

Instead, let people decide themselves. If they vote for SF then they'll know they won't be sitting in Westminster

No it is not. Brexit is the defining issue if our generation not just for Ireland but for Europe. DF see it as another political football like water charges. It much too important to be used as such.we already see them using the line we are more nationalist that you as we will not sit on Westminster.

This issue will be decided there if SF is unwilling to use its votes there it should step aside. Let the people of NI decide it as a remain/leave issue and all MP's elected take there seats.

Long term the Irish electorate will not forgive SF for using this as another political football

Fionn1952

Should they stand aside? Absolutely not. There are a significant number of people in the North who support abstentionism, who should be distinguished from those who don't bother to vote. No one who votes SF expects Westminster representation - if they did, there are a plethora of other parties they could vote for.

Should they get absolutely pilloried on the election campaign for their passenger status for the last few years? 100%, and I expect that to reflect in the election results.

I know quite a few people back home who have been life long SF voters that will be voting Alliance in the coming elections (local and personal reasons going back decades mean they won't vote SDLP, and would never unless they managed to bring back John Hume himself). Takes a lot longer to gain votes like these back than to lose them.

Dyr

Bass Reeves wrote: »

This issue will be decided there if SF is unwilling to use its votes there it should step aside. Let the people of NI decide it as a remain/leave issue and all MP's elected take there seats.

Or they could run for election and let the people decide as you are supposed to in a democracy

The whole Brexit thing has shown up some really deluded thinking, "I disagree with everything this party stands for but they should act in a manner that facilitates my agenda"

Mad stuff. Corbyn, Sinn Fein, the SNP all apparently supposed to act solely in the interests of the hard remainers.

BarryD2

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Should they get absolutely pilloried on the election campaign for their passenger status for the last few years? 100%, and I expect that to reflect in the election results.

I'd say so too and ditto for the DUP. The citizens up north would do a lot worse than get these monkeys off their backs. Give someone else a go, it couldn't be worse for them.

Fionn1952

BarryD2 wrote: »

I'd say so too and ditto for the DUP. The citizens up north would do a lot worse than get these monkeys off their backs. Give someone else a go, it couldn't be worse for them.

One thing that makes it difficult is the necessary tactical voting up North - often you're not voting FOR a party, you're voting AGAINST the other one. I voted SF myself many times when I still lived in the North, to prevent particular politicians getting that seat. As my constituency has come down to single digit figures between candidates, it's very difficult to change.

There are huge numbers of people voting SF and DUP who just dislike the other more, it's a Mexican standoff on who moves first.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, you missed the bit where I said 'if the UK are gonna Brexit'?

Of course 'no Brexit' would be better.

I'll ask again...if the UK is going to Brexit do you think there is something better for the island of Ireland than the deal negotiated? Because once upon a time, like Enda, you didn't think special status for NI and a sea border was a good thing in the event of Brexit.

Absolutely, there are many better deals. The Labour proposal to remain in the Customs Union and the Single Market is a far far better deal than this one. So is the May deal with the backstop.

This deal is not a good thing in the event of Brexit, it is one of the two worst possible deals.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Or they could run for election and let the people decide as you are supposed to in a democracy

The whole Brexit thing has shown up some really deluded thinking, "I disagree with everything this party stands for but they should act in a manner that facilitates my agenda"

Mad stuff. Corbyn, Sinn Fein, the SNP all apparently supposed to act solely in the interests of the hard remainers.

It's utterly bizarre isn't it?

I am no fan of abstensionism but can see why it has been integral to this party since it began and I am also aware that in terms of representation these voters are happy.

The posters on here now talking about 'defining moments' for Ireland etc must have slept through the defining weeks and decades for the people who elect SF MP's or more likely, ignored them.

Now that their economic prosperity is threatened by Brexit they are suddenly very concerned who these people are voting for (They have been electing abstentionist MP'S for a very very long time now after all) and have a 'better way'.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolutely, there are many better deals. The Labour proposal to remain in the Customs Union and the Single Market is a far far better deal than this one. So is the May deal with the backstop.

This deal is not a good thing in the event of Brexit, it is one of the two worst possible deals.

No, blanch...there is ONE deal on the table, then there are the various other wishlists of an assortment of people who are not in power or have the capability of negotiating one.

I disagree re: the backstop. Under the new arrangements the 'border' is now a solely Irish decision.

If somebody wants a hard border in Ireland they have to propose it now and take the full responsibility for it.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's utterly bizarre isn't it?

I am no fan of abstensionism but can see why it has been integral to this party since it began and I am also aware that in terms of representation these voters are happy.

The posters on here now talking about 'defining moments' for Ireland etc must have slept through the defining weeks and decades for the people who elect SF MP's or more likely, ignored them.

Now that their economic prosperity is threatened by Brexit they are suddenly very concerned who these people are voting for (They have been electing abstentionist MP'S for a very very long time now after all) and have a 'better way'.

During those decades nobody voted for Sinn Fein, it was only until they stopped putting the ideology of nationalism ahead of people's welfare and livelihoods that they gained political support.

Now that they are welcoming Boris' deal they are in real danger of compounding the recent decline in their vote, by once again putting the ideology first ahead of people's wellbeing. They won't be the only one, as the DUP will similarly suffer.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

During those decades nobody voted for Sinn Fein, it was only until they stopped putting the ideology of nationalism ahead of people's welfare and livelihoods that they gained political support.

Now that they are welcoming Boris' deal they are in real danger of compounding the recent decline in their vote, by once again putting the ideology first ahead of people's wellbeing. They won't be the only one, as the DUP will similarly suffer.

The only people I can see objecting to Boris's deal so far, are you and the DUP.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, blanch...there is ONE deal on the table, then there are the various other wishlists of an assortment of people who are not in power or have the capability of negotiating one.

I disagree re: the backstop. Under the new arrangements the 'border' is now a solely Irish decision.

If somebody wants a hard border in Ireland they have to propose it now and take the full responsibility for it.

Actually no, Francie. If the UK general election sees Labour elected with support from others who actually take their seats in Westminister, there will be a different deal on the table, and it will be a much much better deal for this island, and for the welfare of the people on this island.

If is quite interesting (but not surprising) to watch you tie yourself to the Boris Johnson deal, and trusting in the Tories again. Quite interesting.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The only people I can see objecting to Boris's deal so far, are you and the DUP.

SNP, Liberal Democrats, UK Labour, are all opposed to this deal.