Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

markodaly

Faugheen wrote: »

People need to understand this.

Anyone who votes for Sinn Fein is voting for abstention. That is their mandate.

The increase in Sinn Fein MPs over the years is proof their abstention mandate has only got stronger.

What if or when Sinn Fein lose MPs in the forthcoming General Election?

Will that be proof that their policy of abstentionism is no longer fit for purpose?

Faugheen

markodaly wrote: »

What if or when Sinn Fein lose MPs in the forthcoming General Election?

Will that be proof that their policy of abstentionism is no longer fit for purpose?

As long as SF has elected MPs then those MPs still have a mandate to abstain.

Again, it’s really not a difficult concept. If you want to be represented in the House of Commons then there are parties for you to vote for.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

As long as SF has elected MPs then those MPs still have a mandate to abstain.

Again, it’s really not a difficult concept. If you want to be represented in the House of Commons then there are parties for you to vote for.

It must be very weird and funny(peculiar not Ha Ha) for a SF voter in northern Ireland now. After having been ignored and pilloried for years by the Dublin Government and the partitionist elements in the south. To see how everybody is suddenly concerned about them and their representation now that the southern economy and well being is under threat.

dixiefly

Faugheen wrote: »

People need to understand this.

Anyone who votes for Sinn Fein is voting for abstention. That is their mandate.

The increase in Sinn Fein MPs over the years is proof their abstention mandate has only got stronger.

I dont accept that - people will still vote for them if the explain why they are taking their seats. It is a cop out and a dangerous one at that.

Sinn Fein have long since accepted the political status quo by getting ivolved in the government in the North. They are going around shouting about what everyboy else must do regardin brexit when they know they have a big part to play.

dixiefly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

People do understand it. It's the few anti-SFers on here and out there that refuse to countenance the idea that abstention is a legitimate mandate, and has been for SF for 100 years.

SF would be a "disgrace", to quote dixiefly above, if they were to take their seats.


And your correct Faughneen re the increase in seats for SF.

can you explain why they would be a disgrace to take their seats in the context of nbrexit and also that they have been part of the government in the North?

golfball37

if enough people feel the same way in NI as many in Eire do about this then they won't vote for them, simples. Its democracy.

FrancieBrady

dixiefly wrote: »

can you explain why they would be a disgrace to take their seats in the context of nbrexit and also that they have been part of the government in the North?

Because the Assembly is the 'governance' of themselves and does not impact other countries. It's key to abstentionism, the refusal to interfere in the running of other countries, as the British did here.
That is their view and their voters accept that.

BonnieSituation

dixiefly wrote: »

can you explain why they would be a disgrace to take their seats in the context of nbrexit and also that they have been part of the government in the North?

Are you asking that seriously?

You should probably brush up on their policy and the whys and wherefores, for starters.

dixiefly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because the Assembly is the 'governance' of themselves and does not impact other countries. It's key to abstentionism, the refusal to interfere in the running of other countries, as the British did here.
That is their view and their voters accept that.

I dont agree with that point because people are voting based on a range of points, issues etc. It is an important one but other sinn fein policies are just as important. So many could still be voting for them even though they may not agree with this particular policy.

Anyway, it looks as if they are going to cop out again on any involvement in the decision on Brexit for their constituents. This wont help their vote in the south either.

dixiefly

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are you asking that seriously?

You should probably brush up on their policy and the whys and wherefores, for starters.

Obviously I am asking that question because I stated the exact opposite.

FrancieBrady

dixiefly wrote: »

I dont agree with that point because people are voting based on a range of points, issues etc. It is an important one but other sinn fein policies are just as important. So many could still be voting for them even though they may not agree with this particular policy.

Anyway, it looks as if they are going to cop out again on any involvement in the decision on Brexit for their constituents. This wont help their vote in the south either.

And maybe it is important to their voters. Who is best positioned to know that?
Their voters will no doubt see that SF's first position on Brexit - that northern Ireland being treated as a special status - become that of (of an initially hostile to that idea) Fine Gael as adequate representation. They know after 100 years of experience that their views will be ignored if it comes to the selfish interests of the British. The DUP now know this too, despite having 10 very active MP's sitting in government with the Tory's.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And maybe it is important to their voters. Who is best positioned to know that?
Their voters will no doubt see that SF's first position on Brexit - that northern Ireland being treated as a special status - become that of (of an initially hostile to that idea) Fine Gael as adequate representation. They know after 100 years of experience that their views will be ignored if it comes to the selfish interests of the British. The DUP now know this too, despite having 10 very active MP's sitting in government with the Tory's.

You would hope that their voters will see that SF's first position on Brexit was always a second-best position, that no Brexit is the best possible outcome for Northern Ireland.

The current deal will reduce living standards across this island compared to where they should have gone. Rejoicing in harming people because it brings a united Ireland closer is something we should have let go of long before now.

Faugheen

dixiefly wrote: »

I dont agree with that point because people are voting based on a range of points, issues etc. It is an important one but other sinn fein policies are just as important. So many could still be voting for them even though they may not agree with this particular policy.

Anyway, it looks as if they are going to cop out again on any involvement in the decision on Brexit for their constituents. This wont help their vote in the south either.

Well there are similar parties to Sinn Fein which people can vote for if they want Westminster representation.

You can call SF a disgrace all you want (and they are for a number of reasons) but the people of Northern Ireland know exactly what they’re getting when they vote for them in a UK general election. If they don’t want their MP to abstain then they should vote for someone else.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You would hope that their voters will see that SF's first position on Brexit was always a second-best position, that no Brexit is the best possible outcome for Northern Ireland.

The current deal will reduce living standards across this island compared to where they should have gone. Rejoicing in harming people because it brings a united Ireland closer is something we should have let go of long before now.

Art 50 was passed in Westminster with a majority of 384 votes. Think about that for a second.

SF and the people of NI never had the power to 'Stop' Brexit, it was ALWAYS about making the best of it.

Stop moaning ffs

It’s amazing the lack of basic understanding people have around Sinn Fein and British politics.

Even if in the fantasy land scenario they’re calling for where Sinn Fein take their seats in Westminster. Do you really think any MP or party in the house would vote the same way as them? On any issue?

Even SNP wouldn’t.

The abstention topic is so completely jaded but always brought up by people who don’t even understand the basics.

Stop moaning ffs

* just to add. There’s a sizable cohort in NI calling for FF/FG to run for seats in NI.
Would an elected FF/FG member have any business sitting in Westminster as an MP?
How do you think that would go down there and here?

We have no business being involved in their mess. We have our own. Sit on the hands and wait is certainly Sinn Feins method. Border poll is inevitable now.

liamtech

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It’s amazing the lack of basic understanding people have around Sinn Fein and British politics.

Even if in the fantasy land scenario they’re calling for where Sinn Fein take their seats in Westminster. Do you really think any MP or party in the house would vote the same way as them? On any issue?

Even SNP wouldn’t.

The abstention topic is so completely jaded but always brought up by people who don’t even understand the basics.

This is an excellent point - having SF in a remain alliance to stop brexit would polarize politics in the HOC even further - after all MP's were killed during the troubles, not to mention British soldiers, and Mountbatten

In an ideal world SF would step aside and allow the SDLP to represent Irish Nationalists in the north

Given the fact that SF lost ground in the south in the EU Elections, they cannot afford to be absent from this election - they need a win. SO for political reasons they will continue with abstentionism

Stop moaning ffs

liamtech wrote: »

This is an excellent point - having SF in a remain alliance to stop brexit would polarize politics in the HOC even further - after all MP's were killed during the troubles, not to mention British soldiers, and Mountbatten

In an ideal world SF would step aside and allow the SDLP to represent Irish Nationalists in the north

Given the fact that SF lost ground in the south in the EU Elections, they cannot afford to be absent from this election - they need a win. SO for political reasons they will continue with abstentionism

It’s weirder than that given SF former opposition to the EU. People and parties are allowed to and should be able to change their minds. Circumstances change. The problem up north is certain parties refusing to acknowledge that change.

I can’t see SDLP ever getting any kind of foothold. Look to the alliance party for that. Regardless anyone thinking SF should take their seats look at the utter contempt of the 600+ MPs in Westminster whenever an SNP MP rises to speak.

The house clears out in seconds.

The contempt Westminster and Britain as a whole has for its democratically and recognized elected MPs within its union is telling.

And still the same nonsense calling for SF to take their seats.

Anyone bringing it up hasn’t the first clue.

BonnieSituation

liamtech wrote: »

This is an excellent point - having SF in a remain alliance to stop brexit would polarize politics in the HOC even further - after all MP's were killed during the troubles, not to mention British soldiers, and Mountbatten

This is a point that myself and others have made repeatedly across many threads and yet others continue to peddle the gibber about SF taking their seats.

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is a point that myself and others have made repeatedly across many threads and yet others continue to peddle the gibber about SF taking their seats.

SF stepping aside for the SDLP is a much better option than SF taking their seats.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

SF stepping aside for the SDLP is a much better option than SF taking their seats.

I was wondering why you thanked a post from me on the point of SF! Seems I misread the bolding tags. Apologies Blanch :P

Stop moaning ffs

Either way today sees DUP again thrown firmly under the bus by the extremist party on U.K. politics.
That’s the third time now.

What will it take for them to snap out of it?

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It’s weirder than that given SF former opposition to the EU. People and parties are allowed to and should be able to change their minds. Circumstances change. The problem up north is certain parties refusing to acknowledge that change.

I can’t see SDLP ever getting any kind of foothold. Look to the alliance party for that. Regardless anyone thinking SF should take their seats look at the utter contempt of the 600+ MPs in Westminster whenever an SNP MP rises to speak.

The house clears out in seconds.

The contempt Westminster and Britain as a whole has for its democratically and recognized elected MPs within its union is telling.

And still the same nonsense calling for SF to take their seats.

Anyone bringing it up hasn’t the first clue.

It remains to be seen if people (mostly Unionists) have lent their votes to the Alliance or have moved away from the DUP and UUP. I wouldn't be getting excited about a major sea change in unionism just yet. The 'fear' factor will be stoked up mightily yet.

Dubh Geannain

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Either way today sees DUP again thrown firmly under the bus by the extremist party on U.K. politics.
That’s the third time now.

What will it take for them to snap out of it?

Due to the DUP furthering the cause for the breakup of the UK Sinn Féin and the SDLP could aside in all constituencies to let DUP maximise their seats :pac:

liamtech

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is a point that myself and others have made repeatedly across many threads and yet others continue to peddle the gibber about SF taking their seats.

I know, and i have done so myself here, and in the Brexit thread- what i will say is that i have sympathy for people who would argue that SF should take there seats - you can understand why they would want that

The problem in northern ireland is Brexit. Its divisive in the UK too of course, but NI is an already politically divided community.

Small parties in the UK are co-operating with one another in a pro remain block, and stand to maybe make some gains from it. On paper, ignoring history your come to the conclusion that they should do so in NI too. and that SF would abstain from the election

Remain
SDLP
UUP*
Alliance

Leave
DUP
TUV
PBP

NOT STANDING
SF

*(i understand that the UUP respect the result but its clear they take a pragmatic view of Brexit - and i believe in a second ref they would urge remain. They were the biggest unionist bloc urging remain in 2016)

Problem is, as we know, any cross community co-operation is attacked, especially by 'Hard Unionism/Loyalism'

So the Alliance have to avoid pacts altogether, and will undoubtedly be attacked anyway for SF stepping aside in their favor (would almost have been better for SF to simply not field candidates and say nothing)

The SDLP are being pragmatic, but AGAIN will be attacked as supporting 'SFIRA' by Bryson, Allister, and the DUP, and Hard Unionism as a whole

SF are always attacked so, no change there - but will not take there seats as is their manifesto - and there supporters are with them on this stance

UUP are in an unenviable position - of wanting to run, rightly wanting to oust the DUP, but inevitably being attacked as 'damaging unionism'

DUP - just wanna keep there seats and dont care how in my opinion - behave disgracefully as always and consider themselves the Keepers and Guardians of Unionism -

TUV - Jim is in his element. he wont run, and now gets to criticize everyone (whats new you may ask)

Complicated as always

liamtech

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Either way today sees DUP again thrown firmly under the bus by the extremist party on U.K. politics.
That’s the third time now.

What will it take for them to snap out of it?

I think hell freezing over would do it?

Its never gonna happen. The DUP get shafted by the UK - and blame Irish Nationalists and the southern government - its Hard Unionism Bryson style

Stop moaning ffs

liamtech wrote: »

I think hell freezing over would do it?

Its never gonna happen. The DUP get shafted by the UK - and blame Irish Nationalists and the southern government - its Hard Unionism Bryson style

I’m following all the relevant accounts in NI and you’re correct.

Apparently unionism in NI is actually being thrown under a bus by a pan nationalist evil scheme between Dublin and London.

It’s nothing to do at all with the dup.


They’re all so mental.

I want a United ireland. Then you read some of even their finest minds both sides freaking out in tweets and you think, so I really want these lunatics having a say in my country?

dixiefly

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It’s amazing the lack of basic understanding people have around Sinn Fein and British politics.

Even if in the fantasy land scenario they’re calling for where Sinn Fein take their seats in Westminster. Do you really think any MP or party in the house would vote the same way as them? On any issue?

Even SNP wouldn’t.

The abstention topic is so completely jaded but always brought up by people who don’t even understand the basics.

I think if they just appeared during a term for a particular debate then other MP's would certainly have an issue with it.

But, in a case where hey have properly discussed it at an EGM and then decided to fight an election on that basis then I think other MP's would not have a problem with it. But then again, I cant speak for them so mine is just another opinion.

but, they should at least have an EGM (or should have had before now) to discuss their strategy in light of Brexit and the DUP holding the balance of power.

liamtech

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’m following all the relevant accounts in NI and you’re correct.

Apparently unionism in NI is actually being thrown under a bus by a pan nationalist evil scheme between Dublin and London.

It’s nothing to do at all with the dup.


They’re all so mental.

I want a United ireland. Then you read some of even their finest minds both sides freaking out in tweets and you think, so I really want these lunatics having a say in my country?

The sad fact is that the GFA was designed for use with the UUP. The DUP never wanted it, and reluctantly went in.

So when Brexit comes along, the DUP saw an opportunity to harden the border. it backfired.

The Tory party shafted them. And they blame, us, the eu, and nationalists in the north.

And with Bryson and his ilk, we have people who are arguing that if BoJo's deal goes through thats the end of the GFA and the 'one sided peace process'

dixiefly

blanch152 wrote: »

SF stepping aside for the SDLP is a much better option than SF taking their seats.

But how many seats will they do hat in? Probably not enough to cancel out (or mostly cancel) the number of DUP seats.