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Achill asylum centre cancelled - mod warning in OP (01/11/19)

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    #692
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    So the 'debate' on the MF show is big on feelings and generalisations. But is totally ignoring the points Varadkar mentioned about safe countries such as Albania and Georgia.
    And no one dissenting voice amonsgt the 5 or 6 of them.

    edit- Gerard Howlin mentions the comments about economic migrants from Albania. He compares it to the Irish going to America illegally to work while on holiday visas! The Albania comments by Leo will run for the next few days but keep the Irish migration history in your mind before you talk abut it.

    And there you go folks...the Intelligentsia in Ireland have spoken.


  • Options
    #693
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Mules wrote: »
    Id be suspicious about varadkar's sudden interest in this. It's under his leadership that the weekly amount of money given to asylum seekers has doubled against advice from the department of finance. They said it would increase the numbers claiming asylum. He has also given them the right to work on top of keeping the weekly allowance and child benefit. He has also said he wants a large population increase. As Irish people aren't having enough cannot afford children the increase will have to come from immigration.

    LV is no dope.

    He is obviously reading his briefing notes on the issue,with todays comments merely confirming what has been already noticed by regular travellers through places such as Dublin Airport.

    Incredibly,illegals ARE being stopped and turned around before they even get to the terminal,and in full view of the other passengers,"pour decourager les autres" perhaps ? :eek:

    Varadakar knows the limitations of our post-brexit Budget to fund what now appears to be a steadily increasing flow of "undocumented" (I prefer the term Illegals meself ;) ).

    With even the more sympathetic folks now noticing the correlation between the numbers of Homeless vis a vis Undocumented individuals and families,LV is merely stating the Obvious,which oddly enough,might stand to him and FG in the 2020 General Election.

    Ireland as a viable State,balanced as it is on a fiscal knife edge,simply does not have the capability to provide for,and attempt to assimilate into it's Western culture the numbers envisaged by the Charlie Flanagan wing.

    One might wonder,as referenced by another poster here,whether Charlie Flanagan is,in some way,attempting to atone for the behaviour of his late father,even if Oliver J. in terms of votes,remains one of the most popular Irish politicians ever,a reality which Charlie might pause to reflect upon ?

    All that said,it has to be a positive thing that the issue and it's many facets is out in the open now,allowing direct comparison to be made between what is reasonable and what is obviously undesirable and unaffordable.

    However,just when all of this reasoned debate appears to be taking root,we are treated to a reminder of things more strangely strange.......

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-defence-forces-launch-secret-mission-to-bring-home-islamic-state-bride-lisa-smith-and-her-child-38656481.html
    THE Irish Defence ­Forces have launched a secret ­mission to help bring Islamic State bride Lisa Smith and her two-year-old daughter, Rakeya, back to Ireland.

    Military personnel, including members of the elite Irish Army Ranger Wing, were deployed to a location near the border between ­Turkey and Syria last weekend with the goal of repatriating Smith.

    Sources said local operatives in Syria may be used to bring 38-year-old Smith, a ­former ­member of the Irish Defence ­Forces herself, and Rakeya, to an agreed location where they will be met by Irish ­personnel and brought home. Details of the mission have been ­deliberately kept low key for security reasons.

    One hopes the total cost of "The mission" will be openly accounted for upon Ms Smith's return,including whatever amount was spent on "local operatives" ;)

    General Election 2020 may yet turn out to be a cracker :D !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #694
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jay0109 wrote: »
    An Asylum Accomm Consultant (who also owns the DP hotel in Wicklow town) is now speaking....hes going to be the main focus of this 'debate'.
    The switch from hotel to DP centre in Wicklow has been very profitable for him and and his business partner he admits. He doesn't live in Wicklow town...he's based in Dublin.

    Asylum accom consultant. Wtf are you on about

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #695
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Asylum accom consultant. Wtf are you on about

    Isn't that how he introduced himself.

    And keep it civil please.


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    #696
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jay0109 wrote: »
    Isn't that how he introduced himself.

    And keep it civil please.

    No. It wasnt no.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #697
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    zell12 wrote: »
    Varadkar mentioned it too, purpose built accommodation for asylum seekers

    Mr V may well have been thinking of something like this.....

    https://www.abf.gov.au/about-us/what-we-do/border-protection/immigration-detention/overview

    Purpose built,one could argue ? (and operated by the Private Sector :D)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #698
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No. It wasnt no.

    Well enlighten me please as to how he described himself?


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    #699
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    jay0109 wrote: »
    The Dept aren't happy with the numbers coming here and the general feeling within that area is that the vast majority are economic and shouldn't be allowed through but the Legal industry and how it all looks with the UN and EU are major factors in letting them into the never ending system that the rest of us have to pay for

    There is absolutely noting illegal with implementing the First Safe State rule enshrined in international law. You can even tell the Asylum Industry Legal Quangos here "This is the law, we are just implementing it."

    You could even go to the EU and say this. You can be sure though that Tusk, Barnier or some other Talking Head there would waffle on about morality or the "spirit" of the law.


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    #700
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Predictable response.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-s-comments-on-illegal-immigration-dangerous-says-rights-group-1.4070902


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    #701
    lola85
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭lola85


    Are we finally getting to the bottom of this homeless crisis hoax the opposition parties keep going on about?

    That the majority are non Irish chancers?


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    #702
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Balf wrote: »
    Predictable response.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-s-comments-on-illegal-immigration-dangerous-says-rights-group-1.4070902
    Typical response from this guy Nick Henderson who knows full well there is not a single person from Georgia and Albania that is fleeing war or religious persecution.

    So instead he goes down the usual route of general smears using rhetoric like "dangerous" while sidestepping the issue at hand - migrants from Albania and Georgia with fake documents were behind a rise in the numbers seeking asylum in the country.
    Nick cannot fight the truth so tries vilify the messenger when he can't fight the message.


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    #703
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Mr V may well have been thinking of something like this.....

    https://www.abf.gov.au/about-us/what-we-do/border-protection/immigration-detention/overview

    Purpose built,one could argue ? (and operated by the Private Sector :D)

    But does anyone know for sure they can't be state owned ?

    Seeing the recommendations from this report http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Spending_Review.pdf/Files/Spending_Review.pdf
    <<
    - Further examination could be carried out on the costs of increasing the number of State owned centres as the State run centres have cheaper operational costs on average than commercially owned centres. This would require consideration for additional capital expenditure.
    - Seeking to base more centres in cheaper locations could also reduce the costs involved in accommodating international protection applicants. This option would require investigation into each new centre toensure that it does not cause too much demand on other services in the area such as health and education. >>


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    #704
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I personally find the "your ancestors / fellow countrymen today engaged in illegal immigration, so your anti-immigration beliefs are invalid" argument ridiculous. Not everybody has collectivist views about their demographic - other Irish people broke and continue to break immigration law, yes - why should that automatically believe that I, an Irish person who doesn't break immigration law, has to have sympathy or support for those who do?

    A country has the right to decide upon its own border policy. I wouldn't disrespect that by entering or remaining in another country against their laws, so if my fellow countrymen or women decide to do so and then get "persecuted", why is it so ridiculous to suggest that I, and other Irish folk, would be indifferent towards it? If America decided to round up and deport all of the "undocumented Irish" in the morning, in my view they had it coming for breaking America's immigration laws to begin with. It's no skin off my nose because I'm not a criminal! My attitude is "well yeah, you broke the law and you got caught. Tough sh!t. They have every right to kick you out."

    I mean by the logic of that whole line of thinking, should I, someone who doesn't break the law by murdering people in drug wars, feel empathy for Kinahan mobsters who are jailed for breaking the law by murdering people in drug wars - just because we happen to share the demographic attribute of being Irish? Those people don't represent me and I feel no inherent support or sympathy towards them just because we happen to come from the same country. Likewise, with regard to Irish people who snuck in to the US or overstayed their visas - they're criminals, I don't have to justify or support their criminality just because they also happen to be Irish.

    It's always struck me as a very bizarre line of thinking.


  • Options
    #705
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Balf wrote: »
    Predictable response.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-s-comments-on-illegal-immigration-dangerous-says-rights-group-1.4070902

    Sarah mcinerney in the sunday times goes one better today -
    "after 20 years of the authorities treating refugees as subhuman, it is hardly surprising that many Irish people viewed them as such"

    Great stuff Sarah, alternatively their should be someone at the airport to hand over keys to a 3 bed semi n to sign em up for the disability allowance!


  • Options
    #706
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,555 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    jay0109 wrote: »
    An Asylum Accomm Consultant (who also owns the DP hotel in Wicklow town) is now speaking....hes going to be the main focus of this 'debate'.
    The switch from hotel to DP centre in Wicklow has been very profitable for him and and his business partner he admits. He doesn't live in Wicklow town...he's based in Dublin.

    He said his company Fire Break is a hotel cinsultancy firm. They advise hotels on how to be more successful.
    The hotel (DP) in Wicklow is a seperate private enterprise.


  • Options
    #707
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,542 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I personally find the "your ancestors / fellow countrymen today engaged in illegal immigration, so your anti-immigration beliefs are invalid" argument ridiculous. Not everybody has collectivist views about their demographic - other Irish people broke and continue to break immigration law, yes - why should that automatically believe that I, an Irish person who doesn't break immigration law, has to have sympathy or support for those who do?

    A country has the right to decide upon its own border policy. I wouldn't disrespect that by entering or remaining in another country against their laws, so if my fellow countrymen or women decide to do so and then get "persecuted", why is it so ridiculous to suggest that I, and other Irish folk, would be indifferent towards it? If America decided to round up and deport all of the "undocumented Irish" in the morning, in my view they had it coming for breaking America's immigration laws to begin with. It's no skin off my nose because I'm not a criminal! My attitude is "well yeah, you broke the law and you got caught. Tough sh!t. They have every right to kick you out."

    I mean by the logic of that whole line of thinking, should I, someone who doesn't break the law by murdering people in drug wars, feel empathy for Kinahan mobsters who are jailed for breaking the law by murdering people in drug wars - just because we happen to share the demographic attribute of being Irish? Those people don't represent me and I feel no inherent support or sympathy towards them just because we happen to come from the same country. Likewise, with regard to Irish people who snuck in to the US or overstayed their visas - they're criminals, I don't have to justify or support their criminality just because they also happen to be Irish.

    It's always struck me as a very bizarre line of thinking.

    Think that's the response from most, and then you'd some who're a little sympathetic and wish it turned out differently like the individuals in question had done it properly in the first place but not much more than that.

    Whatever about using people living there illegally now, you've also people tying it to the famine. By definition most of us are descendants of the people who didn't leave.

    Also tired of people treating tourism and illegal immigration as the same thing, you've idiots arguing that if someone doesn't want asylum seekers then they obviously don't want tourists. Same if some foreign workers, nurses for example.


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    #708
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    I personally find the "your ancestors / fellow countrymen today engaged in illegal immigration, so your anti-immigration beliefs are invalid" argument ridiculous. Not everybody has collectivist views about their demographic - other Irish people broke and continue to break immigration law, yes - why should that automatically believe that I, an Irish person who doesn't break immigration law, has to have sympathy or support for those who do?

    A country has the right to decide upon its own border policy. I wouldn't disrespect that by entering or remaining in another country against their laws, so if my fellow countrymen or women decide to do so and then get "persecuted", why is it so ridiculous to suggest that I, and other Irish folk, would be indifferent towards it? If America decided to round up and deport all of the "undocumented Irish" in the morning, in my view they had it coming for breaking America's immigration laws to begin with. It's no skin off my nose because I'm not a criminal! My attitude is "well yeah, you broke the law and you got caught. Tough sh!t. They have every right to kick you out."

    I mean by the logic of that whole line of thinking, should I, someone who doesn't break the law by murdering people in drug wars, feel empathy for Kinahan mobsters who are jailed for breaking the law by murdering people in drug wars - just because we happen to share the demographic attribute of being Irish? Those people don't represent me and I feel no inherent support or sympathy towards them just because we happen to come from the same country. Likewise, with regard to Irish people who snuck in to the US or overstayed their visas - they're criminals, I don't have to justify or support their criminality just because they also happen to be Irish.

    It's always struck me as a very bizarre line of thinking.

    Apparently this is our version of the white man guilt, its a ridiculous argument and its only goal is to really shut down the conversation. Basically it's a " you cannot say this because " your ancestors did x,y, or z.

    It's even more funny when they try equate it to current Irish illegals abroad, it's like that some how makes it right. I support all governments having clear and enforceable immigration laws, so if ours get sent home so be it.

    Another interesting take on this whole topic https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-in-attack-on-illegal-immigration-38656000.html . Looks like Leo is trying to calm it down.


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    #709
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    lola85 wrote: »
    Are we finally getting to the bottom of this homeless crisis hoax the opposition parties keep going on about?

    That the majority are non Irish chancers?

    No, the majority are just chancers, Irish included.


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    #710
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,727 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Apparently this is our version of the white man guilt, its a ridiculous argument and its only goal is to really shut down the conversation. Basically it's a " you cannot say this because " your ancestors did x,y, or z.

    It's even more funny when they try equate it to current Irish illegals abroad, it's like that some how makes it right. I support all governments having clear and enforceable immigration laws, so if ours get sent home so be it.

    Another interesting take on this whole topic https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-in-attack-on-illegal-immigration-38656000.html . Looks like Leo is trying to calm it down.

    Looks like Leo is under huge pressure. Its great and he needs this issue to not be an election one.

    They have increased airport checks i.e. inspecting ID before you exit the aircraft and sending people back.


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    #711
    Ciaranis
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭Ciaranis


    Is Boards unrepresentative of Irish public opinion or is Ireland far more right-wing than I'd realised?


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    #712
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    apologies that ive missed it

    where is the source for the various reports of what the DOJ has said in terms of numbers and makeup of people involved here?

    original source from dept itself if possible, anything else is of course not to be treated as coming from the dept and we would all accept that, right?

    Not sure if there is a podcast of it or if it’s available online, but Minister Stanton stated on RTÉ Radio 1 on the Sean O’Rourke show that it was initially 38 males, then was changed to 13 females.


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    #713
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Not sure if there is a podcast of it or if it’s available online, but Minister Stanton stated on RTÉ Radio 1 on the Sean O’Rourke show that it was initially 38 males, then was changed to 13 females.
    The other 25 refused to shave off their beards and wear the hijab, so they had to stay behind.


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    #714
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,482 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Balf wrote: »
    ... of the 54,900 people who emigrated from Ireland in the year ending April 2019, more than half —29,000 — were Irish nationals. As such, there was a decline of 2,100 in the number of Irish nationals in Ireland.

    Birth rate?


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    #715
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    Ciaranis wrote: »
    Is Boards unrepresentative of Irish public opinion or is Ireland far more right-wing than I'd realised?

    I think Ireland like most of boards are centrist. Though it is in vogue to say everything right of communism is right wing


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    #716
    kowloon
    Registered Users Posts: 13,482 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »
    I think Ireland like most of boards are centrist. Though it is in vogue to say everything right of communism is right wing

    Same could be said for those who say everything is Marxism, it's called polarization. I'm not sure Right and Left serve any purpose as categories anymore.


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    #717
    ThunbergsAreGo
    Registered Users Posts: 10,399 ✭✭✭✭ThunbergsAreGo


    kowloon wrote: »
    Same could be said for those who say everything is Marxism, it's called polarization. I'm not sure Right and Left serve any purpose as categories anymore.

    Agree with you on that one, most of Ireland is centrist


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    #718
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    kowloon wrote: »
    Birth rate?
    Apologies, I don't follow what significance you are attaching to birth rate.


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    #719
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    humberklog wrote: »
    He said his company Fire Break is a hotel cinsultancy firm. They advise hotels on how to be more successful.
    The hotel (DP) in Wicklow is a seperate private enterprise.
    But is it fair to say the company has a more than random connection to the topic



    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/owner-lashes-out-over-negative-noise-37549041.html

    "The owner of the Grand Hotel has lashed out at critics of the decision to supply accommodation services to the Department of Justice and the 'negative noise' surrounding the move.

    Adrian Shanagher, the Director of Firebreak Hospitality, also acknowledged that the hotel has received numerous cancellations over the past week, some 'understandable' and others due to people wishing to 'voice their protests'.

    'Accommodation and hospitality IS the business we are engaged in and clearly the role of the Department of Justice should be well understood. The reaction and associated causes and effects of the past week are interesting to say the least,' said Mr Shanagher in his statement.
    .........
    He went on to explain that Firebreak Hospitality has invested €800,000 in the Grand Hotel since taking over in 2017, but experienced a 15 per cent drop in business in 2018, resulting in a loss of over €200,000."


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    #720
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,762 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Balf wrote: »
    Predictable response.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-s-comments-on-illegal-immigration-dangerous-says-rights-group-1.4070902

    When Michael McDowell was Justice Minister he was so alarmed to the extent he went on television to tell the public that, I think it was 99%, of asylum claims were bogus or "cock and bull" as he said.

    He got the same push back despite the fact he was privy to the information.


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    #721
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Balf wrote: »
    Predictable response.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-s-comments-on-illegal-immigration-dangerous-says-rights-group-1.4070902

    Indeed it is, i would not be surprised if the usual echo chambers/tax funded vested interests on twitter will be ramping it up and asking people to speak to their local TD's.

    It will go one or two ways from here, they will try and ramp it up and inevitably create another Peter Casey scenario or they will let it simmer out.


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