Consumer Law- Geo Blocking

anewme

Anyone any experience of geo-blocking?

Ordered through a UK Website, for Delivery NI, order accepted and then cancelled with an email saying we do not accept direct orders from your Country.

Phoned and told I need to order through the Irish Website (double the price) The reason given is that although the delivery is to NI, that the card used to pay is registered to ROI.

Any experiences much appreciated.

hullaballoo

Use revolut, it isn't geo-tagged.

#NotLegalAdvice

anewme

Thanks.

I believe these are using IP address to block bookings and putting it down as the card.

On the payment advice, you have to put your registered address.

I rang CCPC today and was given a number to ring to follow up. Some sort of EU line. Anyone any experience of it.

scamalert

anewme wrote: »

Thanks.

I believe these are using IP address to block bookings and putting it down as the card.

On the payment advice, you have to put your registered address.

I rang CCPC today and was given a number to ring to follow up. Some sort of EU line. Anyone any experience of it.

did you start using internet yesterday ?


if they have a branch in eire, they can get into legal issues if audit is done stuff like avoiding tax and other crap. you been pointed that they have irish branch, yet better revolut as suggested. You dont have any gain on this, any company can refuse to ship in such cases on many grounds.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

did you start using internet yesterday ?


if they have a branch in eire, they can get into legal issues if audit is done stuff like avoiding tax and other crap. you been pointed that they have irish branch, yet better revolut as suggested. You dont have any gain on this, any company can refuse to ship in such cases on many grounds.

I understand from he GEO blocking regulations that it is illegal to block payment due to the origin of payment, if in the EU.

I am asking for legal advice on this specific issue, if anyone can help.

No offence, but it seems a bit above your remit.

Mod
Forum is for legal discussion rather than legal advice
Also pls be polite to other posters

c.p.w.g.w

anewme wrote: »

Anyone any experience of geo-blocking?

Ordered through a UK Website, for Delivery NI, order accepted and then cancelled with an email saying we do not accept direct orders from your Country.

Phoned and told I need to order through the Irish Website (double the price) The reason given is that although the delivery is to NI, that the card used to pay is registered to ROI.

Any experiences much appreciated.

What was the website?

anewme

Comment to Mods: I have asked for legal advice or discussion.

The comment "did you start using the internet yesterday" is not polite or helpful in any way and adds nothing to he topic discussion. It is also not legal discussion as per the Charter and is off topic.

People should not feel bereted or chastised for asking a genuine question.

i would respectfully request that politeness goes both ways please.

anewme

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

What was the website?

A household name in retail, I would prefer not to name at this point. Appreciate any feedback on the circumstances outlined.

c.p.w.g.w

anewme wrote: »

A household name in retail, I would prefer not to name at this point. Appreciate any feedback on the circumstances outlined.

Deleted

scamalert

i wasnt being smart, its reality with even likes of amazon, if you never noticed been like that for years x item costs here 100-2 more then in UK cheaper in germany/spain etc.


its not geo blocking issue with ip address, rather that NI and eire addresses dont match which present issues for sellers, and thats perfect grounds to refuse sale. no need for law degree to figure out why.

as i dont see any point what it even has to do with legal discussion as your nothing to gain.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

i wasnt being smart, its reality with even likes of amazon, if you never noticed been like that for years x item costs here 100-2 more then in UK cheaper in germany/spain etc.


its not geo blocking issue with ip address, rather that NI and eire addresses dont match which present issues for sellers, and thats perfect grounds to refuse sale. no need for law degree to figure out why.

When buying online, it is possible have a different delivery address and billing address.

My delivery address and registered address are both registered to my card. So that is not a reason to refuse sale.

I understand from geo blocking legislation that it is illegal to block payments due to the origin of the card.

It is also illegal to force consumers to buy from a specific website, which is what they were trying to make me do.

Have contact details for to follow up by CCPC, just wanted to check here if anyone had any further experience of geo blocking in practice.

Will update the thread when I contact them next week.

As to what is to gain- it is does this scenario qualify under geo blocking legislation; that should be clear from my OP.

scamalert

different address not different countries, unless Ireland went united your first line answers your question.
I could point to US and say why i have to pay 3 times for same item here - see logic ?

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

different address not different countries, unless Ireland went united your first line answers your question.

Not sure how familiar you are with the details of the Regulation.

This is the regulation:

Geo-blocking refers to practices used by online sellers that result in the denial of access to websites from other Member States. It also includes situations where access to a website is granted, but the customer from abroad is prevented from finalising the purchase or being asked to pay with a debit or credit card from a certain country.

In this instance, I am the customer, who is prevented from finalising the purchase due to the Country of my card.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

different address not different countries, unless Ireland went united your first line answers your question.
I could point to US and say why i have to pay 3 times for same item here - see logic ?

This is an EU regulation.

The US is not in the EU.

Neither is the Uk, after BREXIT but this query is a few weeks old.

scamalert

anewme wrote: »

Not sure how familiar you are with the details of the Regulation.

This is the regulation:

Geo-blocking refers to practices used by online sellers that result in the denial of access to websites from other Member States. It also includes situations where access to a website is granted, but the customer from abroad is prevented from finalising the purchase or being asked to pay with a debit or credit card from a certain country.

In this instance, I am the customer, who is prevented from finalising the purchase due to the Country of my card.

ok simple question does the website say they deliver to Ireland ? If no why do you think they have irish website branch then ?

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

ok simple question does the website say they deliver to Ireland ? If no why do you think they have irish branch then ?

The website says they deliver to NI.

I ordered and and paid for the goods to be delivered to NI.

They said I cannot do this as my card is registered to ROI.

I believe this is contrary to the geo blocking regulation.

They were trying to make me use the ROI website. I choose to not use this website as it discriminates against me as a consumer under the geo blocking regulation where you cannot force a consumer to buy from a particular website.

usernamegoes

OP is correct. Reg 2018/302 Art 4.1

whippet

Is the delivery address Parcel Motel?

Some sites refuse to deliver to parcel motel as they have had issues where shipment don’t get to the buyer due to address label issues.

anewme

whippet wrote: »

Is the delivery address Parcel Motel?

Some sites refuse to deliver to parcel motel as they have had issues where shipment don’t get to the buyer due to address label issues.

Thanks, No, was not parcel motel. Was a private regular house.

I believe they are in breach of the regulations, just that no one has ever challenged them on it.

Was hoping here that someone has mounted a challenge under this specific legislation on any website and how they got on with it.

Its a bit frustrating to read comments like, well stuff is cheaper in the US or why do you think they have an ROI website?. They have an ROI website to gouge ROI customers and the geo-blocking regulation is to protect customers from being gouged.

The wording on the cancellation is that "we don't accept orders direct from your Country." This in itself, reads to me like breach of the regulations.

The items cost double ordering through ROI vs. UK.

This regulation is probably little known, in fairness.

anewme

CCPC have a booklet on it.

Might not apply now that Britain have left the EU, or have they officially gone yet, either way, the query relates prior to Oct. 31st. There is a difference of approx. 300 euro between the STG price and the Euro price.

Geo-blocking is the practice, by online traders, of using technology to restrict access to online cross-border sales for reason of nationality, residence, or place of establishment.

The practices include: denying consumers from other Member States access to websites, preventing these consumers from finalising their purchases, or asking them to pay with a credit or debit card from a particular country.

The Geo-blocking Regulation addresses these issues and obliges traders to treat EU consumers in the same manner, when they are in the same situation.

The Regulation applies to transactions which have a cross-border element. The new rules mean that:

EU-based businesses are no longer allowed to block or limit a customer from accessing their website based on their location, and they cannot automatically redirect a customer to a different online interface without their express consent.

In certain circumstances, businesses must provide consumers with the same access and possibility to acquire goods and services as local customers. In terms of setting prices, this means that a trader can have different prices on websites aimed at different territories, but customers must not be confined to buying from the website aimed at their location.

While traders are free to accept whatever payment method they wish, the Geo-blocking Regulation prohibits them from treating those payment methods differently depending on the location of the customer.

L1011

The UK have not left the EU as things stand. They won't for at least 6 weeks.

anewme

L1011 wrote: »

The UK have not left the EU as things stand. They won't for at least 6 weeks.

Ta, I was not sure whether the legislation changed after Oct 31 given they dont know what they are doing themselves.

Legislation still applies as it is then.

I will follow up with the phone number given and give an update here if anyone is interested.

Cheers all and thanks.

GM228

It's worth noting that the GBR regulation does not apply to goods sent from the GB to NI, however the issue of the card registered in Ireland does raise a question as to weather the exemption applies, it's not so clear cut.

usernamegoes

GM228 wrote: »

It's worth noting that the GBR regulation does not apply to goods sent from the GB to NI, however the issue of the card registered in Ireland does raise a question as to weather the exemption applies, it's not so clear cut.

On my reading on the Regulation, it would not apply if the OP lived in NI and ordered goods with a NI-based card and the website said they won't deliver to NI. However, the reason the OP stated is that she was declined based on her place on residence, being Ireland (ROI), and seems exactly what 4(1)(a) covers.

Art 5 deals with payment types. It seems that trader does except euros based on what the OP says, it just that they want her to pay more on the Euro denominated site.

anewme

Just checked and got another email there.

“We do not accept orders from Southern Ireland”’

scamalert

anewme wrote: »

Just checked and got another email there.

“We do not accept orders from Southern Ireland”’

What exactly are you trying to buy ?


I know tons of companies that have branches in UK and wont deal with Ireland, as they cant cover here nor provide warranty, so usual response is find someone locally, who will take guarantee and warranty on themselves which does cost 3rd at least when quoted here.


then theres daily threads here on bargain deals where people swap their ip using vpn and use likes of revolut to get services that are limited to certain countries be in inside or outside UK/EU but no ones complaining, as they have it written in bold that its only for certain country.

as simple example i bought something that needs to be ordered in person or via rep, Irish quotes were about 400-500e more, uk has a direct retail shops setup but, they refused as in case of service or any issues they dont have representation here, thou possible to order at extra cost, finally went with 3rd party from Germany who shipped across EU, but once purchase was made, company said any issues warranty will only be covered by German branch.

now its a bit extreme example but theres lots more simple reasons, why someone can refuse and your cry for some regulation wont have effect on them, as seems company has branch in Ireland and you been told several times, that your card is linked to country they dont deal with directly, which would be for UK customers, so unless your unable to find alternative, i dont see any legal breach as company seems to comply with every regulation and pay taxes here on top.

Bikerman2019

scamalert wrote: »

What exactly are you trying to buy ?


I know tons of companies that have branches in UK and wont deal with Ireland, as they cant cover here nor provide warranty, so usual response is find someone locally, who will take guarantee and warranty on themselves which does cost 3rd at least when quoted here.


then theres daily threads here on bargain deals where people swap their ip using vpn and use likes of revolut to get services that are limited to certain countries be in inside or outside UK/EU but no ones complaining, as they have it written in bold that its only for certain country.

And then there are the other threads where something has gone wrong and they cannot easily get a return or repair as it was shipped to NI parcel motel and accordingly it is expensive to send it back. Or it has arrive in ROI damaged. Who damaged it? Not the sellers problem, it wasn't sent to Ireland.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

What exactly are you trying to buy ?


your cry for some regulation wont have effect on them,

In response to a question in a legal discussion forum asking about specific legislation "has anyone any experience of the geo-blocking regulation", you respond....."your cry for some regulation wont have any effect on them", so the answer must be, no.

scamalert

read section 21 on exceptions and local laws company has to abide. As without knowing item, their terms and conditions its your gripe that you have to pay more here for import from same company.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

read section 21 on exceptions and local laws company has to abide. As without knowing item, their terms and conditions its your gripe that you have to pay more here for import from same company.

Yes, it would be down to their terms and conditions and whether their terms and conditions trump the geo-blocking act.


it would be great to keep this professional and not use language like "crying over some regulation", or "gripe" because that is not what is happening and a person should not feel like a whinger for asking if a consumer regulation covers their purchases. I would have thought this is what this forum is for, not for posters to shoot people down for asking a genuine question.


Given that they deliver to Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Germany, France, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland, UK, I am asking the question why Irish consumers are discriminated against and made to pay double the cost of the same item.

scamalert

anewme wrote: »

Given that they deliver to Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Germany, France, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Switzerland, UK, I am asking the question why Irish consumers are discriminated against and made to pay double the cost of the same item.

Id guess same reason Iceland isn't on the list. air,water transport only+ taxes and small market.

anewme

scamalert wrote: »

Id guess same reason Iceland isn't on the list. air,water transport only+ taxes and small market.

No Spain or Portugal either.

I would have thought the opposite for Ireland than Iceland- the market (was) verey significant when the Company was set up here (Celtic Tiger madness) and it was a way of making extra money before there was kickback on the likes of social media and greater transparency in EU regulations etc.

I don't want the goods now, but I will raise it as an issue with the contact I received from CCPC.

scamalert

well good luck with that, really mean it, not being sarcastic.


as i buy weekly online and see it day in, day out, if i cant bypass trough NI, ill find someone else to buy from :cool: since most have legit policies why they cant ship or offer product, and its not times where one is stuck with single option anymore.

usernamegoes

scamalert wrote: »

read section 21 on exceptions and local laws company has to abide. As without knowing item, their terms and conditions its your gripe that you have to pay more here for import from same company.

Section 21 of what?

My understanding is that she is not asking them to export anything. She is requesting that they accept her order to ship the goods intra-Member State on a non-discriminatory basis pursuant to her right under Art 4(1) of the quoted EU regulation.

There is no question of them having to comply with Irish laws because of this because of Art 4(3) of the same regulation.

Do you think this regulation doesn't not apply in this situation? Genuine question, as it seems pretty straightforward unless I've missed something.

OP perhaps make a complaint to UK authority https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/implementation-geoblocking-regulation-uk

Let us know how you get on.

Spook_ie

Would depend surely on what you are ordering, for example would companies sell you tobacco goods across borders with all it entails?

Spook_ie

BTW just on a similar question, what about playing on line through the lotto app. They won't accept any payment cards not issued on an Irish bank.

anewme

Spook_ie wrote: »

Would depend surely on what you are ordering, for example would companies sell you tobacco goods across borders with all it entails?

Nothing so exciting.

Homewares.

usernamegoes

Spook_ie wrote: »

Would depend surely on what you are ordering, for example would companies sell you tobacco goods across borders with all it entails?

My understanding is she's not requesting them to ship it across borders.

embraer170

anewme wrote: »

Just checked and got another email there.

“We do not accept orders from Southern Ireland”’

They may have the right to not deliver to Southern Ireland, but they have no right to refuse a payment method from Ireland or anywhere in the EU.

Try the European consumer centre for some advice:
https://www.eccireland.ie/

If you are a consumer (resident in Ireland) with a complaint about a trader based in another EU/EEA country (i.e. cross-border) and you have tried to resolve the matter with the trader to no avail, please feel free to contact us. Our service is free of charge and confidential.

embraer170

Some more information and examples are here:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/pricing-payments/faq/index_en.htm

I want to buy shoes online from a company in Spain, using my Italian credit card. The website won't accept my card as it's not a Spanish credit card. Is the trader allowed to do that?

NO. Under EU rules, traders are not allowed to discriminate based on nationality or country of residence. This means that if a trader accepts a particular brand of credit card, for example Visa, from Spain they have to accept the same brand of credit card from all EU countries.
Traders are allowed to choose which payment brands they accept – so, for example they can choose to accept Visa but not American Express. However, they are not allowed to refuse a payment card simply because it is from another EU country.

I live in Ireland and I want to buy tickets for a theme park online. The website automatically sends me to the Irish version of the website. A friend in Italy sees much cheaper tickets for the same theme park via the Italian version of the website. Why can't I see these prices?
EU websites are not allowed to automatically redirect you to a specific country version of their website without your consent. You should be able to choose which version you visit by selecting a country/territory or by directly typing in the correct URL. If you are unable to switch to a different version of the theme park's website, you can report the problem to your European Consumer Centre.

anewme

embraer170 wrote: »

They may have the right to not deliver to Southern Ireland, but they have no right to refuse a payment method from Ireland or anywhere in the EU.

Try the European consumer centre for some advice:
https://www.eccireland.ie/

I was not asking them to deliver to ROI. Delivery address is NI

CCPC gave me contacts ofr ECC Ireland on Friday, just could not get through.

Not sure if to contact them first or the UK end as outlined by usernamegoes (Thanks a lot for your help)

mdebets

You should read this explanation from the European Comission. The geo-blocking is allowed, if the seller has to ship physical goods to you (i.e. you can't force a seller to ship to a certain country (even within the EU). WHat makes your eample even more complicated is that your sale technically is not a cross border sale. You are trying to get a order shipped from one part of the UK to another, so it wouldnt fall under these regulations anyhow.

GM228

mdebets wrote: »

You should read this explanation from the European Comission. The geo-blocking is allowed, if the seller has to ship physical goods to you (i.e. you can't force a seller to ship to a certain country (even within the EU).

But, the OP wants to ship to NI which is where they ship to, their issue is not in relation to the delivery location, but rather the location the payment method is in.

mdebets wrote: »

WHat makes your eample even more complicated is that your sale technically is not a cross border sale. You are trying to get a order shipped from one part of the UK to another, so it wouldnt fall under these regulations anyhow.

I already raised this point, however, the exemption to the Regulation for purely internal transactions only applies when all the "relevant elements" of the transaction are confined within one member state, the fact the OPs card is registered in another member state may not satisfy that requirement meaning the Regulation does apply even though it is not a cross border sale.