When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

If someone says (as maccored did) that Sinn Fein was always pro-EU, it is not trite or false to respond (as you did) that he is wrong.

We are actually in agreement here. You agree with me that Sinn Fein was virulently anti-EU and opposed Ireland's accession to the EU but has changed its position since. We agree on that (so does Permabear II, mattser, RandomName2, myself et al) unlike others (maccored in particular, who says that Sinn Fein have always been pro-EU), so take up your accusations of lying with your fellow republicans, not with the rest of us.

We can disagree on the extent to which they have changed (barely, in my opinion) and why (because of populism and opposing themmums), but we are in agreement that they have changed, so put away the normal blinkers and engage with the actual reality of what people posted.

As for the usual trite, have a look at your own posting on this thread.

Permabear11 wrote:

Sinn Fein's decades-long outright hostility to the EU would make the likes of Nigel Farage proud.

Trite nonsense and untrue, There simply is no 'decades long outright hostility'.

mattser wrote:

3-2-1

mattser wrote:

LIFT OFF

Seriously...you are quoting this as an 'argument'

Randomname2 wrote:

And naturally, as a poster had already pointed out, both the UK (and particularly their main rival in Stormont) are anti-EU, so they want to appear to do the opposite of what their opponent does.

This is also trite and not a true picture if you research how SF's EU policy evolved to where it is now.

manbitesdog

SF couldn’t be called pro-EU, but they are strongly anti-Brexit, and there is no contradiction there. Brexit in some forms would undermine the GFA.

manbitesdog

Mortelaro wrote: »

You'll find pointing out labour and the trade unions 1972 views in a thread on SF being described as whataboutery

It is important to consider the context when pointing out that SF opposed joining what was the EEC in 1972—opposition to Irish membership was not limited to the political fringes. And anyhow, it doesn’t really tell us anything about the party’s current position.

FrancieBrady

manbitesdog wrote: »

It is important to consider the context when pointing out that SF opposed joining what was the EEC in 1972—opposition to Irish membership was not limited to the political fringes. And anyhow, it doesn’t really tell us anything about the party’s current position.

To give some context to that Eire Nua document:

in 1979 Michelle O'Neill was 2 years of age
Mary Lou was 10
Ruairi O'Bradaigh was the leader of SF and Adams would not take over for another 5 years.

Some of the nonsense being posted here is akin to trying to say FG and FF are hypocrites because their policies on Gay Rights and SSM have evolved over the decades from outright hostility to acceptance and embracing of them.

nkl12xtw5goz70

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Trite nonsense and untrue, There simply is no 'decades long outright hostility'.

Sure there isn't. :rolleyes:

Mary Lou McDonald and Nigel Farage joined forces in 2012 to campaign for a No vote on the Fiscal Compact Treaty.

Farage's Brexit Party has also been using video clips of McDonald's speeches to bolster its own position.

McDonald now says that her party is "Euro critical" rather than "Euroskeptic," but that's nothing more than semantics. They have been bedfellows of the UK hard right when it comes to opposing the EU.

manbitesdog

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sure there isn't. :rolleyes:

Mary Lou McDonald and Nigel Farage joined forces in 2012 to campaign for a No vote on the Fiscal Compact Treaty.

Farage's Brexit Party has also been using video clips of McDonald's speeches to bolster its own position.

McDonald now says that her party is "Euro critical" rather than "Euroskeptic," but that's nothing more than semantics. They have been bedfellows of the UK hard right when it comes to opposing the EU.

In what way did they “join forces”? Farage didn’t even “join forces” with the official Leave campaign in the Brexit referendum.

FrancieBrady

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sure there isn't. :rolleyes:

Mary Lou McDonald and Nigel Farage joined forces in 2012 to campaign for a No vote on the Fiscal Compact Treaty.

Farage's Brexit Party has also been using video clips of McDonald's speeches to bolster its own position.

McDonald now says that her party is "Euro critical" rather than "Euroskeptic," but that's nothing more than semantics. They have been bedfellows of the UK hard right when it comes to opposing the EU.

Farage would use anybody to bolster his position.

Instead of letting the Indo do your research for you, why not try doing it yourself.

Here is McDonald in 2009 for instance:

“Ireland’s place in the EU is secure. Our membership of the EU is as valued as France, the Netherlands and all other member states. Keeping Ireland at the heart of Europe is our priority. Sinn Féin wants to see Ireland play a central role in shaping the future direction of the European Union in the interests and all other member states. Since myself and Bairbre de Brún were elected to the European Parliament in 2004 we have had five key political priorities:–

- protecting Ireland’s interests in the EU,

- advancing the peace process, Irish language and the case for Irish unity,

- promoting workers’ rights’, regional development and the needs of Ireland’s rural economy,

- climate change,

- neutrality and global social justice.

Plenty of other source material out there if you are remotely interested in coming up with a fair appraisal.

nkl12xtw5goz70

manbitesdog wrote: »

In what way did they “join forces”? Farage didn’t even “join forces” with the official Leave campaign in the Brexit referendum.

Farage and McDonald appeared together to represent the "No" side in a 2012 Fiscal Compact referendum debate hosted by Today FM. On the "Yes" side were Richard Bruton and Micheál Martin.

manbitesdog

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Farage and McDonald appeared together to represent the "No" side in a 2012 Fiscal Compact referendum debate hosted by Today FM. On the "Yes" side were Richard Bruton and Micheál Martin.

Well appearing on the same panel as another “politician” (Farage hardly deserves to be called one) isn’t teaming up, even if you both hold the same position. Poor editorial decision to invite Farage though; MacDonald and the others should all have refused to take part.

LoughNeagh2017

SF are clowns, I am a hate filled Irish nationalist misanthropist and even I think so. Imagine getting off your sofa to vote for these wealthy people, these politicians want to watch me live a life of suffering.

maccored

NIMAN wrote: »

They campaigned against every eu treaty.
Every single one.

The public would have seen them as anti-EU.

Robert_Beach wrote: »

Every single one by my count. And of course they were wailing about how undemocratic a second ref (both times). We keep that quiet now,

Actually it would be interesting to dig up boards threads from the Nice and Lisbon re-runs and see how the arguments line up with what Nigel Farage is saying now

Mortelaro wrote: »

Certain ?
Didn't they oppose all EU treaties and in fact campaign AGAINST our EC membership in the 1972 referendum

blanch152 wrote: »

Am I in the Revisionist History thread again?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111503025&postcount=1

There is a whole other thread on the SF Eire Nua Policy, some of the lesser highlighted gems in it include:

"Power blocs such as NATO and the EEC on the one hand and COMECON and the Warsaw Pact on the other will be avoided."

"Pending Ireland’s withdrawal from the EEC to resist the implementation of any decrees or policies of the Common Market which would be detrimental to the best interests of our people or any section of it."

Sinn Fein were Irexit long before Johnson was Brexit.

Go back further and Sinn Fein campaigned against Ireland joining the EEC. Has there ever been a Treaty that they were in favour of?

Find me anywhere where SF - the party as it stands today, not 40 years ago - have stated they are anti EU. Forget the whataboutery.

facehugger99

When? - about 3 years ago.

Why? - they are populist charlatans who would adopt any policy position if they thought it would encourage a few extra morons to vote for them.

Robert_Beach

maccored wrote: »

Find me anywhere where SF - the party as it stands today, not 40 years ago - have stated they are anti EU. Forget the whataboutery.

40 years ago? It's just over 10 since SF were leading the charge against Lisbon and how undemocratic a second ref was.

Colonel Claptrap

"Sinn Féin is critical of much of the direction of the European Union" - Matt Carthy MEP

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/52333

Skylinehead

maccored wrote: »

Find me anywhere where SF - the party as it stands today, not 40 years ago - have stated they are anti EU. Forget the whataboutery.

You said:

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU

Patently false. Pointing out that it is indeed false is not even slightly "whataboutery".

Mortelaro

maccored wrote: »

Find me anywhere where SF - the party as it stands today, not 40 years ago - have stated they are anti EU. Forget the whataboutery.

Problem is
That's not the position you stated in your opening post that everyone confronted
Ergo it doesn't answer your misconception that they were always pro EU
Doesn't matter anyway, I don't see how anyone can criticise SF's evolvement when in the interests of remain,they're advocating supporters vote for a Unionist in North Down

maccored

right, so you cant find anywhere where SF have said they are anti EU. Glad thats sorted.

maccored

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

"Sinn Féin is critical of much of the direction of the European Union" - Matt Carthy MEP

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/52333

Nowhere in that does it state SF are anti EU. Surely its allowed to be critical?

maccored

Skylinehead wrote: »

You said:



Patently false. Pointing out that it is indeed false is not even slightly "whataboutery".

hows it false? Have they stated they dont what to be in the EU? Where and when? As I say - no point in digging out 30-40 year old bits of history to back up claims (like blanch152 favours doing)

maccored

Mortelaro wrote: »

Problem is
That's not the position you stated in your opening post that everyone confronted
Ergo it doesn't answer your misconception that they were always pro EU
Doesn't matter anyway, I don't see how anyone can criticise SF's evolvement when in the interests of remain,they're advocating supporters vote for a Unionist in North Down

People dont seem to understand being in the EU can be supported, but yet not agree with everything the EU says or does.

If thats confusing to some, then they must lead pretty sheltered lives as its the kind of thing of everyday life - you can support something but also criticise what it does

maccored

Robert_Beach wrote: »

40 years ago? It's just over 10 since SF were leading the charge against Lisbon and how undemocratic a second ref was.

again - how does that make them anti eu? 'We dont like a document put forward therefore we hate the EU' ... thats just bollocks.

Obviously people find it hard to tell the difference between being anti EU and being critical of the EU

facehugger99

maccored wrote: »

Obviously people find it hard to tell the difference between being anti EU and being critical of the EU

Luckily people are very good at spotting the bullsh;t that SF and their online bots try to peddle though.

maccored

facehugger99 wrote: »

Luckily people are very good at spotting the bullsh;t that SF and their online bots try to peddle though.

going by that statement one would wonder. online bots? Bit lazy statement

Come back to me whenever you can find a statement from SF claiming they are anti EU.

FrancieBrady

maccored wrote: »

going by that statement one would wonder. online bots? Bit lazy statement

Come back to me whenever you can find a statement from SF claiming they are anti EU.

When the 'bots' 'moron' stuff starts you know what is happening maccored.

Odhinn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Horde: WE WANT THIS POLITICAL PARTY TO EVOLVE AND REFORM THEIR POSITIONS!

Political party evolves and reforms their position over 40 years.

The Horde: HYPOCRITES!

You guys truly are gas. :D

/thread.

maccored

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When the 'bots' 'moron' stuff starts you know what is happening maccored.

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

JohnnyFlash

They just seem like a really ineffectual party these days. Doing nothing up North as it suits both sides for that to be the case, and a party of populist nonsense and cheap sound bites down here. Real hurlers on the ditch.

FrancieBrady

maccored wrote: »

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

Nor carry out basic research because it isn't as if SF are hiding anything, here they are at the height of Brexit making no bones about what their relationship with the EU now is:

Speaking at the Sligo Citizens Dialogue on the Future of Europe, Matt Carthy said that constructive criticism was needed to make the EU work better, and that this should not be seen, as a question of being in or out of the EU or out of the EU:

“What Sinn Féin wants is a European Union that works for the people of Europe, not for EU insiders, corporate interests or established political parties from the larger states.”

Saying that the euro crisis was a severe blow to the idea of solidarity between member states, he said:

“People across Europe are rejecting the EU model that has created winners and losers, precarious employment, wealth inequality, debt dependent growth and privatised public services. A failure to recognise this will pose a threat to the future of the European Union itself.”

https://www.mattcarthy.ie/the-european-union-must-be-radically-reformed-carthy/

Odhinn

maccored wrote: »

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

Or the difference between "back then" and "now". It's a bit Father Dougal, really.

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

hows it false? Have they stated they dont what to be in the EU? Where and when? As I say - no point in digging out 30-40 year old bits of history to back up claims (like blanch152 favours doing)

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU

I am doubleplusgood to the rightthinking duckspeaker who has righted my crimethink and maked my oldthink go away.

Seriously, you said that Sinn Fein have always been pro-EU. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that they have never backed a single EU referendum and have been rabidly anti-EU for most of their political existence.