Cold Kitchen - How to improve

bawn79

Hi all,

I've been trying to figure out the best and most cost effective way to improve the heat / insulation of our kitchen.

It is an old single storey extension to the main house. It has high ceilings that mean that there is very little clearance space between the ceiling and the roof above it. This makes insulating it very difficult.

It is a large space of approximately 30m2 and is heated by only two old rads with TRVs on them heated by an oil boiler on one external wall of the kitchen.

There is a south-facing large window but it doesn't get much light due to the house beside it and two west facing windows that do get some light in the evening. There is also one velux sky-light in the roof-space. We had this replaced recently with a new double-glazed window to try and improve the insulating value.
The windows are double-glazed and were replaced about 8 years ago.

Another issue is that there is an attached garage to the kitchen and this has a block on flat separating it from the kitchen. All the external walls around the kitchen (and the garage) have been pumped with insulation. We replaced the garage door as well with a composite style door with a u-value of about 1.5. The garage has been split in half with one side now used as utility room and the remaining side (closest the door) a store area.

There is an old chimney from a stove within the kitchen area as well that is no longer in use.

The floor is on two levels, one tiled and one in wooden parque flooring. The parque feels ok but the tiles are cold to the touch so I'm guessing it is poorly insulated.

The boiler is a firebird and the Ber cert places it in the 70-80% efficiency range.

I've been on to the local energy efficiency company about getting a home energy audit but they haven't bothered getting back to me.

I had an insulating company look at the ceiling but they wanted to cut an access hole in it to see how they could insulate it which I'd rather not do.

I had the idea of building a ceiling with 150mm insulation up against the existing ceiling and got a quotation of about €2.5 k for what appears to be the least insulated part.

I wouldn't mind paying that if it was guaranteed to improve the general heat of the kitchen but my gut is telling me that this alone wouldn't.

Has anyone any suggestions or comments? Or even someone worth ringing for advice to come have a look at it (North Tipperary area).

Idbatterim

Why don’t you just put up insulated slab over existing ceiling and have it skimmed and painted ?

bawn79

Idbatterim wrote: »

Why don’t you just put up insulated slab over existing ceiling and have it skimmed and painted ?

Thanks Idbatterim, yes that was the quotation I got for the €2.5k - the ceiling is T&G timber (about 16m2) so that was for installing a new a T&G timber ceiling (over the existing) and about 150mm insulation (plus taping the edges of the insulation).
As I say I'm give it a go if I knew it was going to sort the problem but I'm just worried that after doing it, it will still be cold.

Odelay

Why bother with new t&g? Just go for a plaster finish. Better light from it too.

Idbatterim

Odelay wrote: »

Why bother with new t&g? Just go for a plaster finish. Better light from it too.

Yeah I’d agree. Or paint over the existing timber. My mate did that recently. But that won’t solve your insulation issue. Did the quote include material?

I’d get a quote or two for putting up the board and skim or skim only. No skill in putting board up ...

Generally you lose most heat through ceiling , as heat rises. Are there any obvious draughts etc ?

Is the t and g directly nailed into the joists ? If so and you want timer finish , you could take them down. Put insulated board between joists or Rockwool etc and reinstall t and g.

Is the space above the t and g insulated at all?

bawn79

Idbatterim wrote: »

Yeah I’d agree. Or paint over the existing timber. My mate did that recently. But that won’t solve your insulation issue. Did the quote include material?

I’d get a quote or two for putting up the board and skim or skim only. No skill in putting board up ...

Generally you lose most heat through ceiling , as heat rises. Are there any obvious draughts etc ?

Thanks for reply.

Yes it included material, I actually don't think its bad.

Sure I could go for the board and skim, I guess I like the idea of T&G if there was ever any leaks in the roof (which there had been) rather than a skim finish which would be harder to get at but really that is just a question of cost.

I'd imagine a skim finish with 150mm insulation might be in the region of €1.5k anyway.

I suppose I'm just wondering if the roof is the main problem or should I be looking at the upgrading the rads. The other issue is the big cold wall between the garage and the kitchen area. Also the lack of insulation in the floor probably doesn't help either.

Idbatterim

The cheapest energy is energy you don’t use. I’d look into the insulation... you can always throw on an electric rad with thermostat for a few hours to see the difference...

Is it a flat roof above it ? Is it a timber suspended floor below it or concrete ?

bawn79

Idbatterim wrote: »

The cheapest energy is energy you don’t use. I’d look into the insulation... you can always throw on an electric rad with thermostat for a few hours to see the difference...

Is it a flat roof above it ? Is it a timber suspended floor below it or concrete ?

Thanks again,

Roof isn't flat but the pitch is really, really low and with the high ceiling it is pretty much impossible for anyone to get in to it.

One section of the kitchen floor is timber and may be suspended and the other is tiles but I'm not sure may be suspended also. Ripping up the tiles at the moment seems a bit extreme.

I had wondered about some kind of electric heater with the thermostat as well as an idea but wondered where to start.

I'm thinking maybe now to try and either take down the t&g ceiling that is there and reuse with new insulation above or to use insulated plasterboard as suggested and leave in place.
See how that goes and then with the saving maybe get a decent electric heater put in with thermostat.
The place may need a plumbing upgrade in the future as there is some older metal piping in the place in parts and maybe I can tease out whether it is possible to insulation the floors then.

Markcheese

Do the rads get hot when the heating is on?
They could be undersized for the dimensions of the room, the high ceiling is going to make it hard to heat anyway, maybe bigger better rads.?
The best bang for your buck will probably be insulated plaster board, on the ceiling and on the garage wall too if possible... Is the the chimney closed or open it could be worth doing something there,
Air- tightness on windows and doors may help too, you kind of need to know where you're loosing heat...

bawn79

Markcheese wrote: »

Do the rads get hot when the heating is on?
They could be undersized for the dimensions of the room, the high ceiling is going to make it hard to heat anyway, maybe bigger better rads.?
The best bang for your buck will probably be insulated plaster board, on the ceiling and on the garage wall too if possible... Is the the chimney closed or open it could be worth doing something there,
Air- tightness on windows and doors may help too, you kind of need to know where you're loosing heat...

Thanks for commenting.

The rads do get hot but it is likely that they are undersized for the room alright. If I had two newer bigger rads installed in their place, that wouldn't be massive job I'd imagine?

There is a solid fuel stove as well that I'd say the previous owner used to heat the room but I'd prefer to avoid that if I could. As the chimney has a fuel I'm thinking that is as good as closed or should I do more to close it off?

Regarding air-tightness I have wondered about getting someone to do a thermal image of the room but don't really know where to start with that without it being a crazy cost.

Goldengirl

bawn79 wrote: »

Thanks for commenting.

The rads do get hot but it is likely that they are undersized for the room alright. If I had two newer bigger rads installed in their place, that wouldn't be massive job I'd imagine?

There is a solid fuel stove as well that I'd say the previous owner used to heat the room but I'd prefer to avoid that if I could. As the chimney has a fuel I'm thinking that is as good as closed or should I do more to close it off?

Regarding air-tightness I have wondered about getting someone to do a thermal image of the room but don't really know where to start with that without it being a crazy cost.

+1 on removing t n g and slabbing sealing and skimming. We have the same and you get gaps between the wood so are looking to do the same.
Insulating wall at garage side might be easier than internal insulation and warm it up a bit.
New rads could use same pipes and either double and/or go vertical if you have wallspace. Want to check your boiler is up to heating bigger rads though.
If I had a stove and the room was cold I would use it, as electric heaters don't seem the answer , to me . Just my preference.
Let me know what you are quoted for doing the work as we are in the same boat, but need to do a bit of saving first !

BryanF

Op
Be mindful of roof ventilation and vapour barrier requirements if using insulated slabs

It sounds like the property/extension needs quiet a bit of upgrading works.

D13exile

I had tongue and groove cladding in the attic of the house I bought and all the heat was flying up through it and out into the air outside, as evidenced by the lack of snow on my roof during the "Beast from the East" snow event in March 2018. So I ripped the T&G down and discovered no insulation between the rafters. I put extratherm rigid insulation between the rafters and 52.5mm insulated plasterboard slabs over that. Massive difference to the heat retention in the house now. It was down to 2 degrees outside one night last week and I didn't need the heating on as the internal temperature of the house never dipped below 17 degrees. Prior to these works, it could get down to 9 degrees inside!!

As for cost of the works, I think you could save a packet by doing it yourself. The 2.4x1.2 meter slabs of insulated plasterboard range from €38-€60 a slab depending on what thickness the insulation is. You'd need about 10 of these and so you should pay no more than €600 for the plasterboard. Skimming is not as tricky as some would have you believe. I gave it a go and the walls and ceiling in my attic are as smooth as glass, unlike the rest of the house which I now plan to re-skim. You could do the job yourself for a thousand tops, including materials. It is not a difficult job and the heat retention will be huge.

As for the rest of the kitchen, the next job would be to put insulated plasterboard on the wall adjacent to the garage and seal the door as best you can. The open chimney is another problem that can be solved by a chimney balloon.

bawn79

Thanks to everyone for the advice on this. I'm leaning towards the insulated plasterboard ceiling to start with and see what effect that has. Thanks to everyone for their help.

Goldengirl

BryanF wrote: »

Op
Be mindful of roof ventilation and vapour barrier requirements if using insulated slabs

It sounds like the property/extension needs quiet a bit of upgrading works.

Yes , and ours , unfortunately. (Sorry , op , to jump on your thread )
We have a doubled up breathable membrane , Tyvek if I remember correctly, and and insulation, 2000's standard, between joists .
Just waiting to get money together to redo the ceiling and insulation there.
We have done a lot of insulation around the rest of the house , and you walk into the kitchen and it feels a lot cooler than the rest of the house.