High speed Rail

lawrencesummers

Has Irish rail / the Gov ever considered high speed rail?

If Cork - Dublin could be done in an hour it would take a lot of cars of the road, and make an already busy line super efficient, profitable?? and useful. Currently the time it takes to drive a car is the same as the time it takes to go by train.

Presumably Galway - Dublin would be under an hour and it would make commuting by train realistic for much larger areas of the country.

Construction costs may not be as high as other countries as it would use existing land / stations etc.

There are two high speed rail projects ongoing in the US, and China has built an extensive network so the figures / experience are available.

Anyone any ideas? It strikes me as a big investment with an even bigger pay off if you could have a massive change in how people commute between the two biggest cities?

is_that_so

Distances are too short and the cost is too high! Cork is under 3 hours anyway.

lawrencesummers

is_that_so wrote: »

Distances are too short and the cost is too high! Cork is under 3 hours anyway.

Is it to short? Why so?
If a train journey could take 1 hour and driving 3 hours then surely there would be scope for investigating it?

Journey time is only one consideration as well, traffic, environment, safety, future proofing, access, satellite towns, commuting etc etc are all direct benefits surely?

is_that_so

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is it to short? Why so?
If a train journey could take 1 hour and driving 3 hours then surely there would be scope for investigating it?

Journey time is only one consideration as well, traffic, environment, safety, future proofing, access, satellite towns, commuting etc etc are all direct benefits surely?

Cork is really the longest journey with a lot of passengers and one of the few that is profitable I believe. I imagine they'll get faster trains on it in due course but we're never going to TGV territory for the sake of one line.

circadian

I think they cost or building it is off-putting, however I think distances are perfect. South Korea has an excellent high speed rail system and is slightly larger in area than Ireland. They built their initial system out of old TGV stock before finally upgrading, so there are options.

I'd love to see an all Ireland HSR, if not to just replace the old diesels which will have to happen sooner or later. We'll be electrifying the rail lines so why not look at high speed rail at the same time.

lawrencesummers

is_that_so wrote: »

Cork is really the longest journey with a lot of passengers and one of the few that is profitable I believe. I imagine they'll get faster trains on it in due course but we're never going to TGV territory for the sake of one line.

Is there not a possibility of a Cork - Dublin - Dublin airport - Belfast line?

Sure brexit and the north and all that, but as the 3 largest cities on a relatively small island when you ignore the political stuff it could make a lot of sense.

circadian

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is there not a possibility of a Cork - Dublin - Dublin airport - Belfast line?

Sure brexit and the north and all that, but as the 3 largest cities on a relatively small island when you ignore the political stuff it could make a lot of sense.

There'd be big interest for that kind of line to Derry since a lot of people commute regularly from the North West to greater Belfast.

chuky_r_law

the Healy Raes would want it coming to Kilgarvan

tom1ie

Don't think they make high speed trains to Irish guage spec, so using old stock from another country is a no go.
We would have to upgrade the entire line from cork to Dublin to Belfast and also electrify it.
You would have to bypass Dublin's congested rail network either under or around Dublin.
There'd be a serious doubt as to whether the line would ever make a profit with cost of all of the above.
Other than that, no probs!!

Markcheese

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is there not a possibility of a Cork - Dublin - Dublin airport - Belfast line?

Sure brexit and the north and all that, but as the 3 largest cities on a relatively small island when you ignore the political stuff it could make a lot of sense.

I'd love to see that cork Belfast rail line... But it'd be stupidly stupidly expensive.... You'd pretty much need to build a whole new líne (ala HS2 in England), or 4 track the current line and pendalino or something...
The current cork Dublin is hardly over used at the moment... Its one departure an hour (more or less)

lawrencesummers

Markcheese wrote: »

I'd love to see that cork Belfast rail line... But it'd be stupidly stupidly expensive.... You'd pretty much need to build a whole new líne (ala HS2 in England), or 4 track the current line and pendalino or something...
The current cork Dublin is hardly over used at the moment... Its one departure an hour (more or less)

Cork - Dublin is busy though, as is the motorway, if journey times could be haved or better then the train would be in even bigger demand. A connection to the airport would make it even more worthwhile.

I’m sure new lines would be needed, there are section of the current lines not able for the top speed of the current trains.

The cost would be greatly reduced over other countries though as Irish rail own the land that the current tracks use and could be expanded.

I’m just wondering has it ever been considered? Have Irish rail ever looked at it with any seriousness?

I completely understand this current government are terrible when it comes to small scale construction projects - housing, falling down new schools etc, and have a worse record with large scale projects - children’s hospital, dunkettle
Interchange, so I don’t see them having the ability to do it, but has it ever been put forward as an idea?

lawrencesummers

tom1ie wrote: »

Don't think they make high speed trains to Irish guage spec, so using old stock from another country is a no go.
We would have to upgrade the entire line from cork to Dublin to Belfast and also electrify it.
You would have to bypass Dublin's congested rail network either under or around Dublin.
There'd be a serious doubt as to whether the line would ever make a profit with cost of all of the above.
Other than that, no probs!!

I read somewhere that the entire line is due for electrification in the next while anyway.

L1011

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I read somewhere that the entire line is due for electrification in the next while anyway.

For a very poor definition of "while"

It'll happen, but it might not be in my natural lifespan!

loyatemu

circadian wrote: »

I think they cost or building it is off-putting, however I think distances are perfect. South Korea has an excellent high speed rail system and is slightly larger in area than Ireland. They built their initial system out of old TGV stock before finally upgrading, so there are options.

they have literally 10 times our population.

Marcusm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Has Irish rail / the Gov ever considered high speed rail?

If Cork - Dublin could be done in an hour it would take a lot of cars of the road, and make an already busy line super efficient, profitable?? and useful. Currently the time it takes to drive a car is the same as the time it takes to go by train.

Presumably Galway - Dublin would be under an hour and it would make commuting by train realistic for much larger areas of the country.

Construction costs may not be as high as other countries as it would use existing land / stations etc.

There are two high speed rail projects ongoing in the US, and China has built an extensive network so the figures / experience are available.

Anyone any ideas? It strikes me as a big investment with an even bigger pay off if you could have a massive change in how people commute between the two biggest cities?

If you are going to use existing land and stations, how long will you shut the existing lines while you replace them with high speed tracks? There’s a reason why high speed is built separately.

Marcusm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Is there not a possibility of a Cork - Dublin - Dublin airport - Belfast line?

Sure brexit and the north and all that, but as the 3 largest cities on a relatively small island when you ignore the political stuff it could make a lot of sense.

Dublin - Belfast has a lot of trains. Separate tracks on different alignments would have to be built for high speed rail. It would not follow the same route.

lawrencesummers

Marcusm wrote: »

If you are going to use existing land and stations, how long will you shut the existing lines while you replace them with high speed tracks? There’s a reason why high speed is built separately.

Considering I know nothing about it I haven’t a clue. I’m sure a project of this scale would involve disruption but you can’t make an omelette....

IE 222

We don't need high speed rail. Quad tracking, upgrades such as strengthening the Curragh, sections of Mallow - Cork and 125mph would be a game charger here. Maybe a new line between Cherryvile Jct and Portlaoise to bypass Portarlington but not sure if the gain would be worth it.

It wouldn't break the bank to get the following journey times.

DUBLIN -
Cork & Galway 2hrs
Belfast, Waterford, limerick, Wexford 1.75hrs
Sligo, Kerry, Westport 2.5hrs

lawrencesummers

IE 222 wrote: »

We don't need high speed rail. Quad tracking, upgrades such as strengthening the Curragh, sections of Mallow - Cork and 125mph would be a game charger here. Maybe a new line between Cherryvile Jct and Portlaoise to bypass Portarlington but not sure if the gain would be worth it.

It wouldn't break the bank to get the following journey times.

DUBLIN -
Cork & Galway 2hrs
Belfast, Waterford, limerick, Wexford 1.75hrs
Sligo, Kerry, Westport 2.5hrs

I would consider those times ‘high speed’ - faster than a car is high speed for me.

Isambard

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I would consider those times ‘high speed’ - faster than a car is high speed for me.

How would you propose a 125 mph "high speed train" doing Cork to Dublin in an hour? It's an impossible pipe dream.

The fact is I can currently drive from home in North Cork to most places in the Dublin area quicker than I can do it by train. That's because I don't live in Mallow Station and I don't go to Dublin to visit anywhere near Heuston Station. Once the M20 is built, I'll be able to do it much quicker than train currently can.

Marcusm

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Considering I know nothing about it I haven’t a clue. I’m sure a project of this scale would involve disruption but you can’t make an omelette....

Years is the answer you are looking for! Only in limited places would there be sufficient space to add additional paths (ie sets of tracks). This would be further reduced if the line was to call at many stations.

Markcheese

Marcusm wrote: »

Years is the answer you are looking for! Only in limited places would there be sufficient space to add additional paths (ie sets of tracks). This would be further reduced if the line was to call at many stations.

If cork Dublin,was being upgraded to a much higher speed where would you stop on this fast route,cork, Mallow? limerick junction.? Portlaoise? M50? And heuston...
I'm assuming each stop will cost near 10 mins between acceleration, dwell time and acceleration...

IE 222

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I would consider those times ‘high speed’ - faster than a car is high speed for me.

That's not high speed. It's a relatively normal intercity speed. High speed in today's terms is 200+mph.

Jamie2k9

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Has Irish rail / the Gov ever considered high speed rail?

If Cork - Dublin could be done in an hour it would take a lot of cars of the road, and make an already busy line super efficient, profitable?? and useful. Currently the time it takes to drive a car is the same as the time it takes to go by train.

Presumably Galway - Dublin would be under an hour and it would make commuting by train realistic for much larger areas of the country.

Construction costs may not be as high as other countries as it would use existing land / stations etc.

There are two high speed rail projects ongoing in the US, and China has built an extensive network so the figures / experience are available.

Anyone any ideas? It strikes me as a big investment with an even bigger pay off if you could have a massive change in how people commute between the two biggest cities?

Many of the existing routes/stations would not be suitable and in many cases require stations to be knocked down or significantly altered plus additional land would be required because many parts of existing routes would need to be altered.
High speed is great but 100mph would be acceptable here if the infrastructure supported it.

Doubling of Portarlington to Athlone combined with removal of all farm and most level crossings capable of 100mph could possibly deliver 10-15 minutes saving to Galway/Westport. Each train crossing is about 6 minutes for one of the services involved. Removing farm crossings between Athlone-Galway and closing certain crossings to allow 100mph and that's potentially another 10 minutes.

Realignment of a few sections between Athy/Carlow and removal of farm crossings between Cherryville and Carlow should enable a constant 100mph section.

Sections of 100mph on Galway/Waterford today are just token gestures with schedules largely based on 80mph because in the few cases you manage to reach 100mph you have to slow to 80mph almost immediately generally because of a farm crossing. 80, 100, 80, 100, 80 and maybe the odd 90 is the set up today all within 10 miles or so...

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

Once the M20 is built, I'll be able to do it much quicker than train currently can.

Another massive waste of funds on what will be another underused motorway. €1bn (850 million in 2011) to shave 10-15 mins off Cork - Limerick.

Put that billion into the Cork line and you'll see massive improvements in rail services for Cork, Limerick and Kerry to Dublin.

silverharp

Ireland is a small country , frequency is as important as speed. With an eye to the future Ireland will benefit from autonomous vehicles/technology either road based or rail. With rail there would be a huge benefit if you could have single carriage driverless trains every 10-15min rather then something that only goes every hour or 2...one can dream! , high speed rail just doesn't seem to be commercially viable

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

Another massive waste of funds on what will be another underused motorway. €1bn (850 million in 2011) to shave 10-15 mins off Cork - Limerick.

Put that billion into the Cork line and you'll see massive improvements in rail services for Cork, Limerick and Kerry to Dublin.

The M20 is not about time saving , it's about making a dangerous heavily used N road fit for purpose, and to save lives.

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

That's not high speed. It's a relatively normal intercity speed. High speed in today's terms is 200+mph.

indeed and still it couldn't do Cork to Dublin in an hour. IE can't manage 2 hours curently

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

The M20 is not about time saving , it's about making a dangerous heavily used N road fit for purpose, and to save lives.

And this necessitates a full motorway how?

circadian

Del.Monte wrote: »

And this necessitates a full motorway how?

Motorway standards remove all side road entrances and other hazards on national roads. I've not seen the specs but I'm assuming it's largely going to be dual carriageway with on/off ramps. If the current road is heavily used then it'll need upgrading one way or another to make it safer. You could argue that a regular dual carraigeway would suffice but you'll still have on road entrances across 2 lanes with multiple roundabouts.

Motorway makes more sense.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

indeed and still it couldn't do Cork to Dublin in an hour. IE can't manage 2 hours curently

Never said it could nor have I purposed it. I think 2hrs should be the aim here and anything less is unnecessary

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

The M20 is not about time saving , it's about making a dangerous heavily used N road fit for purpose, and to save lives.

It's not that dangerous of a road other than a few sections. Widening the road and adding more 2 plus 1 lanes between Croom and Twomiletownhouse is more than sufficient for a fraction of the cost.

IE 222

circadian wrote: »

Motorway standards remove all side road entrances and other hazards on national roads. I've not seen the specs but I'm assuming it's largely going to be dual carriageway with on/off ramps. If the current road is heavily used then it'll need upgrading one way or another to make it safer. You could argue that a regular dual carraigeway would suffice but you'll still have on road entrances across 2 lanes with multiple roundabouts.

Motorway makes more sense.

Other than Mallow there is no other roundabouts on the road. It's a full on motorway planned for it. The current volume of traffic is manageable, it's only when you have no way of overtaking slow moving traffic it becomes an issue. Other than people trying to park in Charleville I've never witnessed tail backs on this road.

Marcusm

Markcheese wrote: »

If cork Dublin,was being upgraded to a much higher speed where would you stop on this fast route,cork, Mallow? limerick junction.? Portlaoise? M50? And heuston...
I'm assuming each stop will cost near 10 mins between acceleration, dwell time and acceleration...

I don’t think it is a runner whatsoever!

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

It's not that dangerous of a road other than a few sections. Widening the road and adding more 2 plus 1 lanes between Croom and Twomiletownhouse is more than sufficient for a fraction of the cost.

It has one of the worst safety records in the State and the Mallow to Cork section is one of the busiest roads in the state.

You clearly don't know the road if you think the only problem is the area around Croom.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

It has one of the worst safety records in the State and the Mallow to Cork section is one of the busiest roads in the state.

You clearly don't know the road if you think the only problem is the area around Croom.

I use the full stretch of road 3 times a week in the morning peak. Where did I say the only problem is around Croom????

What I said was, the road needs widening for more 2+1 lanes between Twomiletownhouse and Croom. That's all that's required and maybe at most a small, single lane, similar to Longford, bypass around Charleville. Croom - M21 is wide enough already for additional 2+1 lanes so to is Ballyhea - Charleville and Mallow to Cork already has it.

There has been a few fatalities over the years mainly as a result from poor driving skills.

Mallow - Cork is most certainly not one of the busiest roads in the state. It's no busier than the N81 between Tallaght and Blessington.

It's a long way from been gridlocked. I've yet to see a major tailback approaching Cork's North Circular rd in the morning peak, were as if you look at the volume of traffic approaching Dunkettle, Ringaskiddy or the N40 in general its completely heaving in the peak hours.

The only issue is the lack of overtaking of slower moving traffic which may result in 20-30 vehicles been held up until they reach an area were they can overtake.

circadian

IE 222 wrote: »

Other than Mallow there is no other roundabouts on the road. It's a full on motorway planned for it. The current volume of traffic is manageable, it's only when you have no way of overtaking slow moving traffic it becomes an issue. Other than people trying to park in Charleville I've never witnessed tail backs on this road.

Yeah lack of roundabouts is part of the problem regarding safety. There are multiple side entrances onto the current road and some are concealed/very difficult to see oncoming traffic.

These types of projects aren't just purely based on traffic calming, that road has an awful safety record. It's easily one of the worst in the state.

There's two options here. Upgrade to dual carriageway with multiple roundabouts along the way closing off the side roads or spending a little more and getting full motorway standard.

tom1ie

Was this thread not about high speed rail? Why are we talking about roads!

Okon

tom1ie wrote: »

Was this thread not about high speed rail? Why are we talking about roads!

Fair enough;

I don't see High Speed rail happening in Ireland in my lifetime.




(I might not see Buttevant and it's bendy roads around the quarry bypassed in my lifetime either!)

L1011

tom1ie wrote: »

Was this thread not about high speed rail? Why are we talking about roads!

At least partially because potential HSR is competing with coaches in Ireland not the more common competition with aircraft

Markcheese

L1011 wrote: »

At least partially because potential HSR is competing with coaches in Ireland not the more common competition with aircraft

If we're going down that road.... If the state invested in decent coach stops and encouraged coaches onto the motorways, would we need an intercity rail service at all.? Hi speed or otherwise?,

Isambard

IE 222 wrote: »

I use the full stretch of road 3 times a week in the morning peak. Where did I say the only problem is around Croom????

What I said was, the road needs widening for more 2+1 lanes between Twomiletownhouse and Croom. That's all that's required and maybe at most a small, single lane, similar to Longford, bypass around Charleville. Croom - M21 is wide enough already for additional 2+1 lanes so to is Ballyhea - Charleville and Mallow to Cork already has it.

There has been a few fatalities over the years mainly as a result from poor driving skills.

Mallow - Cork is most certainly not one of the busiest roads in the state. It's no busier than the N81 between Tallaght and Blessington.

It's a long way from been gridlocked. I've yet to see a major tailback approaching Cork's North Circular rd in the morning peak, were as if you look at the volume of traffic approaching Dunkettle, Ringaskiddy or the N40 in general its completely heaving in the peak hours.

The only issue is the lack of overtaking of slower moving traffic which may result in 20-30 vehicles been held up until they reach an area were they can overtake.

you mean New Twopothouse?

Markcheese

Marcusm wrote: »

I don’t think it is a runner whatsoever!

I though this was a hypothetical argument... Shure as a state we can't even agree on a route for city buses or even provide drinking water in Dublin, its unlikely we'd get to a fast or even a high-speed train.

tom1ie

Markcheese wrote: »

I though this was a hypothetical argument... Shure as a state we can't even agree on a route for city buses or even provide drinking water in Dublin, its unlikely we'd get to a fast or even a high-speed train.

A lot of this is down to a completely inept minister for transport who clearly doesn’t give a damn about anyone outside of stepaside village. (Not the drinking water- the shambles of a public transport system we have).

IE 222

circadian wrote: »

Yeah lack of roundabouts is part of the problem regarding safety. There are multiple side entrances onto the current road and some are concealed/very difficult to see oncoming traffic.

These types of projects aren't just purely based on traffic calming, that road has an awful safety record. It's easily one of the worst in the state.

There's two options here. Upgrade to dual carriageway with multiple roundabouts along the way closing off the side roads or spending a little more and getting full motorway standard.

There is a massive price difference between dual carriageway and motorway.

Side entrances are part and parcel with roads like these. There well sign posted and if any are particularly dangerous they should be improved by means of vegetation clearance, providing a small slip lane or lowering the speed limit in the vicinity.

To claim a whole new alternative motorway needs to be built due to side entrances is madness. If this is the criteria were basing these decisions on we'll need motorways everywhere.

IE 222

Isambard wrote: »

you mean New Twopothouse?

I do yes.