Syrian refugee student wins state scholarship

RandomName2

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Moi a condescending smartarse? Never! *pearl clutch*

To be fair recedite brought up a good point about what makes somebody constitute a refugee.

The question is, at what point does a refugee cease to be a refugee? When they esape the war, and reach the first safe country? The second safe country? the third?
Suppose they arrive in the wealthiest place on the planet, are accepted in and given work permits, and have official residency status there. The particular country does not generally hand out citizenship unless you marry a native, but their residency is assured.

Perhaps it isn't best answered in this thread, given that it centers around someone we only have partial information about, and individual cases are also often poor at providing deeper insight.

Saying that he's mad doesn't exactly add much to the conversation, and I think it's relatively justifiable to say that people who aren't actually interested in discussion, probably have public perception as a driving motivation.

4068ac1elhodqr

Assuming the genuity of this (singlular) positive story, maybe we should ask for more (likely to be geniune) young school-age (e.g. easy to integrate) refugees from Syria.

However looking over IPO applicants over many recent months this year, there's hardly any from Syria at all.
Syria doesn't even register in the top5 any longer, isn't that strange?

In fact, the largest single source comes with a 99.97% rejection rate (very, very, very, un-likely to be genuine).
Ah well, sure looks like it's mainly war-torn(?) Albanians & Georgians then going forward.
So be it.

RandomName2

1641 wrote: »

The father was working in the UAE on a visa. The UAE did not have an asylum programme before this year. So they couldn't have got asylum there.

There's the salient bit (provided it's accurate). That's the answer.

Let's not kid ourselves about why this is a news story, which is due to its temporal proximity to controversy in relation to direct provision. This vital piece of information makes the family in question genuine refugees.

Is there ongoing issues about whether asylum seekers are genuine refugees? Absolutely, 100%, and anybody who claims otherwise is clearly being somewhat selective in their appreciation of reality.

Wibbs

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well to be fair, even if they had been in the UAE before it kicked off, doesn't mean they can't claim asylum. They could have moved there on work visa, war starts back in Syria a few years later and then they are suddenly in the position that they would now be sent back to a war zone if their visa is not renewed. Maybe it would be renewed or maybe it wouldn't - but that is ultimately outside their control. If could be that to all intents and purposes for them, their previous country doesn't exist any more.

If they couldn't get refugee status in the UAE due it not being available, they'd be entitled to go elsewhere to claim it (Why they "chose" Ireland would be up for debate but it would not remove their entitlement to do so).

Good points there DT. Way back in the early 80's I knew a guy whose family had to leave Iran because of threat to life and his dad had a few quid squirrelled away and was able to hit the ground running here(to some degree anyway). They were given asylum and back then it was not easy to get. I also seem to recall that either the dad or the family stayed in another country for six months or something, before they got to here.

Syrian refugees I have far fewer issues with and the people at the sharp end of the dept seem to agree as they turn around and refuse very very few. The chancers from Georgia, Albania, sub Saharan Africa and the like on the other hand...

Wibbs

RandomName2 wrote: »

Let's not kid ourselves about why this is a news story, which is due to its temporal proximity to controversy in relation to direct provision.

Aye, and it's pretty transparently hamfisted with it. That I do take issue with.

Wibbs

RandomName2 wrote: »

There's the salient bit (provided it's accurate).

Oh it's accurate alright R, with precious few exceptions(Jordan, Turkey. Jordan has a very good record on helping when it came to it) the rest of the ME countries have been utter cnuts with this refugee crisis and even where they have allowed for refugees it has been tiny numbers. Kuwait held onto a few and then started to deport them. UAE is a thundering sh1thole, built on slave labour, western money lovers who'll bootlick for coin and instagram(and actual) whores. That it does little but give lip service does not surprise me one iota.

Kivaro

recedite wrote: »

That's typical alright. No facts, no citations. A condescending, smartarse, non-reply laced with insults and empty virtue signalling.

On another thread he states this as fact, and we will have to concur:

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I have three law degrees and a degree in economics, I know how to spell, I'm an asshole and I get bored on long flights... so when you want to come to the table with the adults I'll think about entertaining you.

Overheal

RandomName2 wrote: »

To be fair recedite brought up a good point about what makes somebody constitute a refugee.



Perhaps it isn't best answered in this thread, given that it centers around someone we only have partial information about, and individual cases are also often poor at providing deeper insight.

Saying that he's mad doesn't exactly add much to the conversation, and I think it's relatively justifiable to say that people who aren't actually interested in discussion, probably have public perception as a driving motivation.

I would think that it's not particularly safe for the persons to return to their home state, that would make them refugees. It doesn't matter so much where they go from there. An Iranian political refugee would still be a refugee of Iran whether they were wealthy about it or not, if return means death. As long as people seek refuge from a place they cannot safely return I would think that makes them refugees. I suppose my follow up would be how safe would you feel if your family moved to Syria this afternoon?

1641

Wibbs wrote: »

Aye, and it's pretty transparently hamfisted with it. That I do take issue with.

Let's not get carried away with this one. The original announcement of the bursary got a fair mention in the media back in May, but it did not generate any additional controversy. Why would it - outside of science education/DEIS circles, anyway ?

But the announcement of the first winner was always going to get more prominence as there is a human face attached. The media love a story with a human face, and why wouldn't they as this is what engages public interest. Of course the fact that it was a recent graduate of the asylum system and from Syria was going to get the story more prominence. There does not have to be any conspiracy or agenda to see that.
The story from the mainstream media viewpoint was gone after a day. But not from some social media or Boards. It would have been gone from here too except that a small number of people seemed to take the gravest exception to the story and sought by any means possible to question this girl's credibility - often by the wildest contortions. If ham fisted (or maybe twisted) comes into it then it is in this response.

LillySV

splinter65 wrote: »

You think the body that awarded the scholarship should have to prove to you that she got the points? Why? It’s not your money, it’s not your business.
She’s won the scholarship because she’s demonstrated that she achieved academic excellence despite starting her secondary education from a position of severe disadvantage to most of the other students in her year.
Unless you are suggesting that medical school are admitting her without her having achieved the required academic standard.
Is that what you’re suggesting?
Why would they take that risk?
Also, do you demand to see the academic record of everyone who gets into medical school here or just those you feel should have to show their record, like refugees?

U say it’s not my money.... just wondering who’s money it is? Where is it coming from???

Anyways lets give a scenario... Let’s say you’re billy, the guy who worked hard inside and outside of school to get great results and afford to go to college... your mum and dad have low wage paye jobs and Cant really help ya....yet cause u live with them their wages are counted and u get no grant... so your leaving college every eve to go work in the likes of Supermacs where u will be until 12 that nite to try keep yourself funded... then have to get up early in the morning to attend the 9 lecture .... and here you see your classmate who also did well to get in to college....but they’ve been offered a scholarship...and u haven’t even though you had exceptional results....

u not think Billy is entitled to understand why he didn’t get a scholarship and his classmate did? U don’t think there has to be some transparency?

Shur if your happy not to have any transparency then u be ok if govt stops publishing expenditure and revenue intake each year ...they can increase our taxes if they feel it’s needed but they don’t need to tell us why... shur why do u need to know? And shur what about the elections ? Why should the votes for each candidate be published or let out.. they can just tell us who won ... why do we need to know.... no transparency required cause shur we can trust everyone!

Ps stop trying to bring in the fact that she is from outside Ireland or may be a refugee....ive only tried to query why there was no transparancy in the awarding of a scholarships....if your looking for evidence of racism in this thread .... the only person being racist here is you for tryin to point out differences

Wibbs

1641 wrote: »

Let's not get carried away with this one. The original announcement of the bursary got a fair mention in the media back in May, but it did not generate any additional controversy. Why would it - outside of science education/DEIS circles, anyway ?

But the announcement of the first winner was always going to get more prominence as there is a human face attached. The media love a story with a human face, and why wouldn't they as this is what engages public interest. Of course the fact that it was a recent graduate of the asylum system and from Syria was going to get the story more prominence. There does not have to be any conspiracy or agenda to see that.
The story from the mainstream media viewpoint was gone after a day. But not from some social media or Boards. It would have been gone from here too except that a small number of people seemed to take the gravest exception to the story and sought by any means possible to question this girl's credibility - often by the wildest contortions. If ham fisted (or maybe twisted) comes into it then it is in this response.

Eh, the article in the paper and RTE news linked in the opening post on this thread is entitled "Syrian refugee student wins State scholarship" and dated the sixth of November makes a point of referencing those who may oppose DP centres in their area, sorry, dropped into their area with little or no consultation. Seems a tad convenient considering the background stuff going on. Never mind that when Varadkar acknowledged the obvious problems of the chancers, even here he kept to script and judiciously avoided the chancers who weren't pale of face and kept to pointing the finger at Albanians and Georgians, seemingly blind to the numbers of the darker of face being rejected at the same near 99%. It's more than bloody obvious.

Oh and for the record I do not question the award of her bursary. Fair play to her. I "thanked" the opening post. I would have little issue with Syrian refugees like her and her family. I do have an issue with the other chancers trying to get in and those that got in before. I do have an issue with being sold the same all too obvious lines of yay for "multiculturalism" that have precedents in every European nation that's tried to work this before us.

1641

LillySV wrote: »

u not think Billy is entitled to understand why he didn’t get a scholarship and his classmate did? U don’t think there has to be some transparency?

Well, if its only transparency you are looking for then just check out the the information document for the Campbell Bursary (below). It is perfectly transparent in terms who is eligible for consideration for the prize and the order of merit by which the winner is picked. But, somehow, I don't think that will satisfy you. And even more strangely I don't think there would have been any controversy if either Bridget from Bruree or Patrick from Parteen had won.

https://www.education.ie/en/Learners/Services/Scholarships/the-professor-campbell-bursary-scheme.pdf

Donald Trump

recedite wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well to be fair, even if they had been in the UAE before it kicked off, doesn't mean they can't claim asylum. They could have moved there on work visa, war starts back in Syria a few years later and then they are suddenly in the position that they would now be sent back to a war zone if their visa is not renewed.

Thats a big "if". Was that actually the case?
The answer is No. We know that because the father decided not to leave his well paid job while the mother and daughter were off to Ireland, putting on the poor mouth.
I wonder if the asylum office were even aware of his existence, or did the pair present as a vulnerable war widow with a child.

I think you miss the point (perhaps deliberately). If they did not have any permanent status in the UAE, and no mechanism to request it there, they would be entitled to claim it somewhere else - and they wouldn't have to wait until they were being deported from UAE to go somewhere else in order to do so.

You don't have to be poor to claim asylum. You just need to be fleeing something and unable to return home without a risk of being killed or persecuted.

Asylum means they get a right to stay in a country. Asylum does not strictly necessarily equate with being on welfare.

1641

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh and for the record I do not question the award of her bursary. Fair play to her. I "thanked" the opening post. I would have little issue with Syrian refugees like her and her family. I do have an issue with the other chancers trying to get in and those that got in before. I do have an issue with being sold the same all too obvious lines of yay for "multiculturalism" that have precedents in every European nation that's tried to work this before us.

Any suggestions as to why so many were triggered to try to undermine the winner and her family?

Wibbs

LillySV wrote: »

Anyways lets give a scenario...

Actually I know two such "Billys", or rather two "Willhelminas", from the same family. Scarily bright, consistently the tops of their classes in damn near every subject, IQ's measured off the charts, both want to do medicine, but their parents will seriously struggle when university comes around. I fear one may not get the chance unless things change in the interim. That said I doubt they're even close to being so unusual and at least they're not American where it would be essentially game over without huge loans they'd likely neither get nor be able to pay for. I actually mentioned this award to their dad and he was fair play to her. Ditto. So long as we don't go down some daft "affirmative action" road, which we hopefully won't.

alastair

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh it's accurate alright R, with precious few exceptions(Jordan, Turkey. Jordan has a very good record on helping when it came to it) the rest of the ME countries have been utter cnuts with this refugee crisis and even where they have allowed for refugees it has been tiny numbers.

Well that’s not true now, is it? Lebanon alone took in more than twice the number of Syrian refugees than the entire EU has. A country half the size of Leinster. A quarter of a million in Iraq, half a million in Egypt. There’s ten times the number of Syrian refugees in the Middle East compared to Europe.

Wibbs

1641 wrote: »

Any suggestions as to why so many were triggered to try to undermine the winner and her family?

Well if you're kicking off with "triggered" then we're kinda off on the wrong foot.

However 1, I would suggest that such kick backs are a near given in multicultural societies where too many see problems on the ground with the implementation of this cause, problems they don't hear or see or worse seem to be competely ignored by their media or their governments. Doubly so when articles can often come across as PR stunts for the same cause. And tribalism all the way up to xenophobia and racism is most certainly in play, again just like every other multicultural setup. I have never denied that, nor would I. The span of human history right up to today would make me a buffoon if I tried. Hell, the conflicts folks are fleeing from are because of it and the problems of every single multicultural nation are largely down to it too.

The difference is I don't just acknowledge it and bemoan it and that's that, I see it as a large part of human nature and human nature is rarely, bloody rarely for turning. I am not so naive to think this time it'll be different, because it never has been before. It's why I think multiculturalism is a hiding to nothing and if it can be avoided, or kept to a low level which seems to keep things stable, then it should be. It certainly won't change because the Irish are finally coming into the mix. Since the non EH migrants that came in during the boom, we're already seeing the seeds of marginalisation, ghettoisation like has gone before and like what has gone on before it doesn't tend to end well. Not least for the kids and grandkids of the first generation.

Subcomandante Marcos

alastair wrote: »

Well that’s not true now, is it? Lebanon alone took in more than twice the number of Syrian refugees than the entire EU has. A country half the size of Leinster. A quarter of a million in Iraq, half a million in Egypt. There’s ten times the number of Syrian refugees in the Middle East compared to Europe.

Hey you, don't let facts get in the way of badly informed opinion!

Wibbs

alastair wrote: »

Well that’s not true now, is it? Lebanon alone took in more than twice the number of Syrian refugees than the entire EU has. A country half the size of Leinster. A quarter of a million in Iraq, half a million in Egypt. There’s ten times the number of Syrian refugees in the Middle East compared to Europe.

Ah yeah, the poorest nations in the ME. And Lebanon which is about as fecked as you can get in the region is hardly a standard bearer for how to treat Syrian refugees. Since 2014 they've been trying to get shot of them. They're not allowed work, though do to survive which has screwed the local economy even further as wages crashed. Anti Syrian sentiment is strong. For obvious historical reasons, never mind the hordes of them that flooded across their borders. You make it sound like Lebanon "took them in" with open arms. :rolleyes: Oh and Egypt while treating the Syrians far more equitably has just over 100,000, not half a million. I wish people like you actually had a clue, or at least read more before coming out with half truths and nonsense..

LillySV

1641 wrote: »

Well, if its only transparency you are looking for then just check out the the information document for the Campbell Bursary (below). It is perfectly transparent in terms who is eligible for consideration for the prize and the order of merit by which the winner is picked. But, somehow, I don't think that will satisfy you. And even more strangely I don't think there would have been any controversy if either Bridget from Bruree or Patrick from Parteen had won.

https://www.education.ie/en/Learners/Services/Scholarships/the-professor-campbell-bursary-scheme.pdf

Where is the transparency ? That doesn’t prove that she got higher results than her classmates who weren’t awarded the scholarship ?

And what’s this about Bridget and patrick? Once again I never said anything about the persons name, origin,race, gender.... nothing ... just asked the simple question.... why isn’t her results published since they were deemed to be worth a scholarship? U came out with the comment about Bridget and patrick.... Reverse racism in action once again ....

LillySV

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually I know two such "Billys", or rather two "Willhelminas", from the same family. Scarily bright, consistently the tops of their classes in damn near every subject, IQ's measured off the charts, both want to do medicine, but their parents will seriously struggle when university comes around. I fear one may not get the chance unless things change in the interim. That said I doubt they're even close to being so unusual and at least they're not American where it would be essentially game over without huge loans they'd likely neither get nor be able to pay for. I actually mentioned this award to their dad and he was fair play to her. Ditto. So long as we don't go down some daft "affirmative action" road, which we hopefully won't.

I’d like to think they are recognized for their hard work and do go forward and get the support the deserve ...

1641

Wibbs wrote: »

Well if you're kicking off with "triggered" then we're kinda off on the wrong foot.

I think triggered captures it pretty well!:)

LillySV wrote: »

Where is the transparency ? That doesn’t prove that she got higher results than her classmates who weren’t awarded the scholarship ?

And what’s this about Bridget and patrick? Once again I never said anything about the persons name, origin,race, gender.... nothing ... just asked the simple question.... why isn’t her results published since they were deemed to be worth a scholarship? U came out with the comment about Bridget and patrick.... Reverse racism in action once again ....

Donald Trump

LillySV wrote: »

Where is the transparency ? That doesn’t prove that she got higher results than her classmates who weren’t awarded the scholarship ?

It kind of does

The Professor William C Campbell bursaries, shall be awarded to the eligible candidate who has made an application which meets the approved course criteria outlined above, and who has the highest number of marks on their exam papers in any combination of two science subjects counted for CAO purposes, one of which must be biology. In the event of two or more candidates being considered of equal standard the order of merit be determined by reference to the performance of the candidate in all six best subjects. If the total marks achieved by two or more candidates remain the same, the order of merit shall be determined by reference to the candidates’ achievement in his/her best subject.

LillySV wrote: »

And what’s this about Bridget and patrick? Once again I never said anything about the persons name, origin,race, gender.... nothing ... just asked the simple question.... why isn’t her results published since they were deemed to be worth a scholarship? U came out with the comment about Bridget and patrick.... Reverse racism in action once again ....

Bridget and Patrick were also eligible to apply.

I don't have any doubt that she was the highest candidate who applied. What wasn't clear to me was whether she got in under CAO or whether there was a different route available to her. Not that it mattered, but earlier in the thread there was talk that she didn't need the required points and I was trying to square that discrepancy (not trying to say she shouldn't have gotten in)

Wibbs

alastair wrote: »

Well that’s not true now, is it? Lebanon alone took in more than twice the number of Syrian refugees than the entire EU has. A country half the size of Leinster.

Oh and speaking of "not true now", or morre the usual half truths that the bleeding hearts are just as guilty of as the naysayers; as of 2018 according to the UN one million Syrian refugees applied for asylum status in the EU. I hate to break it to you, but your basic readin', writin' and arithmetic failed you yet again as one and a half million is not twice a million. Never mind that out of all the refugees in the world 18% of them are in Europe.

1641

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't have any doubt that she was the highest candidate who applied. What wasn't clear to me was whether she got in under CAO or whether there was a different route available to her. Not that it mattered, but earlier in the thread there was talk that she didn't need the required points and I was trying to square that discrepancy (not trying to say she shouldn't have gotten in)

I think its fairly clear ir is CAO:


"In addition to the eligibility requirements outlined above a student must be accepted onto an approved course in the areas of Zoology, Medicine, Physiology or Biomedical Sciences.Each candidate must submit a completed application form and provide evidence from the CAO that he/she has applied for a Zoology, Medicine, Physiology or Biomedical Sciences course as their first choice."

Donald Trump

1641 wrote: »

I think its fairly clear ir is CAO:


"In addition to the eligibility requirements outlined above a student must be accepted onto an approved course in the areas of Zoology, Medicine, Physiology or Biomedical Sciences.Each candidate must submit a completed application form and provide evidence from the CAO that he/she has applied for a Zoology, Medicine, Physiology or Biomedical Sciences course as their first choice."

It would appear so, but humour me for this:
Suppose there is also a parallel entry into a course in RCSI. You fill out your CAO form, apply for medicine in Trinity as your first choice. This allows them to process your application for scholarship. You also apply the parallel route for RCSI and later on you get accepted to RCSI via the parallel route.

The conditions are not to apply and furnish them with a copy of your CAO offer at the time. Therefore it would appear to me that the applications are at least partially processed before results come out. And that condition serves as an initial filter.

Now I don't know that such a parallel entry route would exist. I have no reason to believe it does other than it would hypothetically be a way that the allegations that she didn't get enough points to get in the normal way could be actually true.
The other, more likely, way to explain the discrepancy is that people saying so are just wrong.

I had thought it might not be impossible for them to have an alternate entry route for disadvantaged schools (which could easily be as equally valid a route as CAO even if you didn't need quite as many points). The same way that Trinity has it's access program.

Subcomandante Marcos

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh and speaking of "not true now", or morre the usual half truths that the bleeding hearts are just as guilty of as the naysayers; as of 2018 according to the UN one million Syrian refugees applied for asylum status in the EU. I hate to break it to you, but your basic readin', writin' and arithmetic failed you yet again as one and a half million is not twice a million. Never mind that out of all the refugees in the world 18% of them are in Europe.

By the most conservative estimates there are 1.5 million syrian refugees in Lebnanon, 3.6 million in Turkey, and 1.26 million in Jordan.

That's 6.35 million of a pre-war population of 21 million syrians living in neighbouring countries. That's over 30% of syria's pre-war population living in camps in neighbouring countries.
Lebanon has the highest refugee per capita population on the planet.

4068ac1elhodqr

Is there any reason why there has been hardly any Syrian refugees in recent months to Ireland?
it's almost as if others (from fairly peaceful countries) are taking their places, possibly taking advantge of the system.

On average they would probably be the 'most in need' right about now, considering their country.
Yet there's hardly any, how so?

RandomName2

alastair wrote: »

Well that’s not true now, is it? Lebanon alone took in more than twice the number of Syrian refugees than the entire EU has. A country half the size of Leinster. A quarter of a million in Iraq, half a million in Egypt. There’s ten times the number of Syrian refugees in the Middle East compared to Europe.

Alastair contends that Wibb's assessment that the Middle Eastern countries have not exactly played a part that would be expected of them in the management of the Syrian Civil War.

Wibbs says that there are a few exceptions, such as Jordan and Turkey.

Alastair says that Wibbs is wrong.

Let's have a look



As we can see, the number of refugees taken by anybody but her immediate neighbors is distinctly in the red (with the exception of Egypt). That is, that that absolutely massive landmass, to the south east of the map, has taken in distinctly zero refugees. This one one of the reasons I earlier queried the UAE origin of the girl's family (which has now been clarified).

I hope that Jordan and Lebannon have received some support from the West for the work they are doing in housing the number of refugees they are doing. Turkey is currently weaponizing its refugees and is definately getting money for not using them as an 'invasion force' to quote Erdogan.

RandomName2

1641 wrote: »

I think triggered captures it pretty well!:)

You've come off pretty triggered at times. It doesn't matter, you still contribute to this thread. I wish you would tone down the emotional timbre to your posts and stop trying to decry criticism for the sake of it being criticism (which is actually really meta when you think about it). This doesn't undermine the factual elements of your posts, but it is an unfortunate addition to them. Like anchovies on pizza.