the end of all racing?

Taxuser1

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-cyclocross-event-cancelled-over-insurance-dispute-fears-for-road-races/

potential for a domino affect through town and city councils if the level of insurance offered by the governing body is deemed insufficient. bear in mind this was an off road event on council lands which was objected to. would it cross over to road activities is my question?

magicbastarder

i suspect the specific issue faced here and the issue with road racing are two different issues; unless cork council have the same rules for hosting a CX race on council land, as there are for holding races on open roads?

Junior

Taxuser1 wrote: »

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/irish-cyclocross-event-cancelled-over-insurance-dispute-fears-for-road-races/

potential for a domino affect through town and city councils if the level of insurance offered by the governing body is deemed insufficient. bear in mind this was an off road event on council lands which was objected to. would it cross over to road activities is my question?

Not in the slightest. And SB are being hugely irresponsible in conflating issues here to scare monger. The issue with Ronde is with the Cork City Council being both Insurer and Insuree (for want of a better description) and looking to not have any chance of a claim lodged against it. Road Races don't rely on insurance from local Councils, or are not subjected to the vagries of Local Council Insurance.

Weepsie

What about all of those countless football matches that take place on council land? Do they demand the same type of insurance for that, because I bet they don't and having played football, hurling and soccer for over 10 years, there are a lot more injuries. Just go to an a&e at the weekend and you'll see a handful of poor folk who've broken, fractured or torn something. Their insurance through their club is deemed good enough, so why not for this?

cdaly_

Weepsie wrote: »

What about all of those countless football matches that take place on council land? Do they demand the same type of insurance for that, because I bet they don't and having played football, hurling and soccer for over 10 years, there are a lot more injuries. Just go to an a&e at the weekend and you'll see a handful of poor folk who've broken, fractured or torn something. Their insurance through their club is deemed good enough, so why not for this?

Maybe their insurance covers injury sustained during the match. I'm pretty sure they do. CI insurance covers third party injury but not injury caused by one participant to another.

Large bottle small glass

Junior wrote: »

Not in the slightest. And SB are being hugely irresponsible in conflating issues here to scare monger. The issue with Ronde is with the Cork City Council being both Insurer and Insuree (for want of a better description) and looking to not have any chance of a claim lodged against it. Road Races don't rely on insurance from local Councils, or are not subjected to the vagries of Local Council Insurance.

Cork City Council, self insure whereas Cork County Council are insured under the IPB scheme. I'd expect other local authorities might take a similar view if they also self insured. The claims manager sharing the same building as the manager and financial controller is more likely to be conservative it terms of risk than a middle man/woman sending claim forms to IPB.

If the City Council have an objection to insurance in a dedicated facility and can't necessarily see why it wouldn't on their open road

Have a look on Personal Injury Lists of Cork Circuit or High Court and you will see they get sued a lot.

If you look at
http://www.cyclingireland.ie/downloads/odonsummaryofcovercyclingirelandjune2019.pdf

you will see there is no cover under CI in the event of one racing participant injuring another. So in the event of Rider A getting badly injured and claiming Rider B caused it there is a risk of City Council being sued (more so if in legal land rider B isn't a mark).

While the link is there, any cyclist doing events would want to have good read of it. CI is cheap and it pretty sh1t in terms of cover especially if you are self employed and/or do any type of work which you can't do unless in full health.

Miklos

Stickybottle, while a great resource for news and results throughout the season, really like to balance it out with the most horrendous clickbait headlines.

thebouldwhacker

Junior wrote: »

Not in the slightest. And SB are being hugely irresponsible in conflating issues here to scare monger. The issue with Ronde is with the Cork City Council being both Insurer and Insuree (for want of a better description) and looking to not have any chance of a claim lodged against it. Road Races don't rely on insurance from local Councils, or are not subjected to the vagries of Local Council Insurance.

Apparently a national road series race had to be re routed at the end of last season because of this.

Hardly scare mongering.

thebouldwhacker

And now this......

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2212684218831625&id=115231578576910

dahat

Can a lad hold two insurance policies? In sure there is a big crossover between road & tri clubs.

eeeee

I don't understand the big need for participant to participant cover, if there's an accident you use your own policy to claim medical expenses and loss of earnings.
Insurance is just fcuked in this country now
At the agm this year, they gave the example of someone getting 18k through the CI participant to participant insurance for someone calling them a nut job. I'm sure they felt aggrieved, but claiming for it *facepalm*
According to the same presentation, name calling alone costs the fai €20 million a year.
I think if we want reaching to continue in the hostile insurance conditions and massive pay outs currently in place in the country, people need to manage expectations. If they want participant to participant cover then the licence cost would need to double to afford it.

Insurance needs to be tackled at government level yesterday. CI only had one company quote for its business this year. With bike park Ireland closed, bike rental and a lot of other activity businesses closing due to insurance costs driven up largely imo by people unwilling to take responsibility for themselves* and getting huge payouts (the hanging onto the luas one ffs) it's increasingly unsustainable to sport in this country.
People need to be looked after when things go wrong, but there system currently in place is massively dysfunctional. The NZ system looks a good idea, imagine that coming in here? People having to give up their 20k whiplash payouts :rolleyes:

CramCycle

That's insane, any reason that such a call would have went through insurance rather than a civil claim. When it did, any reason the insurance company didn't go after the rider who said it or fight it? I have said far worse things to riders, and had far worse things said to me. Sometimes deserved, often not, but jebus, I'd be a touch soft but Christ on a bike, 18k. Shake hands, say sorry, maybe buy the rider a cup of coffee, end of story. It's a sad state of affairs when my 6yo and his friends have a more mature response to a misspoken word. Could said rider even prove it happened?

NamelessPhil

The exact quote was:

"A volunteer coach was called a "nutjob by
another volunteer coach. The process for
handling such issues was not followed by
the board and a claim ensued. Including
legal costs the total outlay was in excess of
€30.000."

I've taken that from the slide at the presentation.

NamelessPhil

The lesson to be learned from the quote in my previous post is that Clubs need a Code of Conduct that is adhered to by club members. It doesn't have to be extensive, one page of A4 will cover most eventualities.

CramCycle

NamelessPhil wrote: »

The lesson to be learned from the quote in my previous post is that Clubs need a Code of Conduct that is adhered to by club members. It doesn't have to be extensive, one page of A4 will cover most eventualities.

Under Sports Ireland every club is required to have one, something I only became aware of through a child safeguarding course. Something I don't think CI actively push (or at least I missed the email). Currently writing up one for my own club, to be ratified and introduced in the near future.

Apologies anyway, from eeeee post, I thought it was mid race. Seema more a failure of governance than insurance.

thebouldwhacker

CramCycle wrote: »

)Currently writing up one for my own club, to be ratified and introduced in the near future.

I'm not sure I'm aware of it either.
Would it be possible for you to pm me a copy of that, or a link to guidelines, so we can make sure we have similar in my club?

Bambaata

NamelessPhil wrote: »

The exact quote was:

"A volunteer coach was called a "nutjob by
another volunteer coach. The process for
handling such issues was not followed by
the board and a claim ensued. Including
legal costs the total outlay was in excess of
€30.000."

I've taken that from the slide at the presentation.

So got a payout cos the club made a balls of it?! If so club should pay out!!

CramCycle

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

I'm not sure I'm aware of it either.
Would it be possible for you to pm me a copy of that, or a link to guidelines, so we can make sure we have similar in my club?

I'll copy my notes from the sports Ireland meeting on Monday and mail them to you.

Harrybelafonte

NamelessPhil wrote: »

The exact quote was:

"A volunteer coach was called a "nutjob by
another volunteer coach. The process for
handling such issues was not followed by
the board and a claim ensued. Including
legal costs the total outlay was in excess of
€30.000."

I've taken that from the slide at the presentation.

I’m sorry, but I can’t get my head around this at all? To sue for this? I understand a level of anger, etc but my brain can’t comprehend seeking financial compensation?

J Madone

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I’m sorry, but I can’t get my head around this at all? To sue for this? I understand a level of anger, etc but my brain can’t comprehend seeking financial compensation?

Who was the (injured party) the one the money was paid out to?

CramCycle

I imagine a huge chunk is legal fees, regrettably, the few cases where insurance would serve a purpose is no longer covered because, well, I don't know the finer details, but Imagine there were simpler solutions.

CramCycle

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

And now this......

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2212684218831625&id=115231578576910

CI would not want them there either as you should be a member of CI if taking part in CI spins, bar the three tries you can have if thinking of joining a club, so it really is a non issue.

jinkypolly

CramCycle wrote: »

CI would not want them there either as you should be a member of CI if taking part in CI spins, bar the three tries you can have if thinking of joining a club, so it really is a non issue.

From CI's own web page;

As a club are we covered to allow Triathlon Ireland members take part in club training sessions and club spins?

Yes Triathlon Ireland members are allowed take part in Cycling Ireland club training sessions and spins.

godtabh

jinkypolly wrote: »

From CI's own web page;

I assume on the basis that they are fully paid up members of the CI club they are riding with?

CramCycle

As a club are we covered to take out non-Cycling Ireland members with us?

Non-members are allowed to take part in up to 3 club spins and they will be covered for insurance provided they sign in officially before each spin. After 3 spins the non-member will need to take out membership or they will not be covered for insurance.

They may be covered, not so sure the club would be indemnified though.

magicbastarder

the law is used as a weapon; and it's not something new. i used to work in a job where i'd be the chap with a new motherboard under my arm, ringing your doorbell to fix your computer for you. we used to fight over the cases in solicitor's offices - as in, no one wanted them. we had several instances where legal action was threatened over the most godawfully trivial issues.

Hungrycol

NamelessPhil wrote: »

The exact quote was:

"A volunteer coach was called a "nutjob by
another volunteer coach. The process for
handling such issues was not followed by
the board and a claim ensued. Including
legal costs the total outlay was in excess of
€30.000."

I've taken that from the slide at the presentation.

The irony is that the other volunteer coach was right. :pac:

J Madone

Hungrycol wrote: »

The irony is that the other volunteer coach was right. :pac:

Any ideas what part of the country this coach is from, is there a secrecy/anonymity clause?

magicbastarder

mod note - let's not try to drag boards into a legal spat, please!

mamax

Some discussions with our members lead me to believe they will not take out CI membership next time round as a lot of them are also TI members, CI could possibly see a huge drop in membership next year.

slow

The High Court is not a nice place to be. I've been there as a witness to a crash in a bike race. The plaintiff's legal team adopted a scattergun approach to the lawsuit claiming damages against the race organizer, the race commissaires, an individual cyclist in the race and the local Council.

An adjournment was sought after evidence from a few people had been heard. The barristers came back to say that the claim had been settled without an admission of fault. The plaintiff received an undisclosed award. None of the defending parties were informed as to whose insurance companies ended up paying what.

The case took ten years to reach the High Court, causing huge anguish to the plaintiff and defendants. A horrible situation all round. I don't think Stickybottle is scaremongering on this. The editor of that website is in court on a daily basis in his day job.

The extension of the Cork City Council boundary out past Glanmire to the East and Blarney/Tower to the West is a big worry. The fabulous circuit used for the 2014 Junior and A3 national championships and all Blarney CC promotions are in jeopardy. A traditional Rás stage like Clonakilty to Dungarvan likewise because it passes through Cork City Council territory.

Hopefully, CCC will remain an outlier as a self-insuring local authority and the insurance companies for all the other local authorities will continue to consider CI insurance to be sufficient for road racing. Fingers crossed...