More controversy.

Cass

Well, not controversy, but probably another thread which will only lead to an argument but here goes.

Was reading, over the last week or so, a few different articles and then some posts on various websites and something struck me as contradictory.

The discussion of bag limits was one topic and the other was birds of prey.

The article on bag limits was asking what clubs set, if any, in term of bag limits and there was a lot of comments about too much shooting, wiping out the years stock, etc. IOW overshooting.

Then the other article on birds of prey was people, a majority it seems from the comments, that viewed them as vermin and the sole or overwhelming reason why was the amount of Pheasants they take.

The reason why i think its contradictory is this.

The same people commenting on overshooting and blaming the birds of prey were also posting pictures of themselves having shot dozens and in one case over 100 birds (between a few lads) in the one day.

I won't pretend to know how many Pheasant or Duck are taken each year by birds of prey but i dare say it's not even close to the number shot by hunters each year and definitely not when i see dozens of birds shot by people in a weekend that would keep a fair few birds of prey fed for quite a while.

IOW are we, the shooting community, blaming the wrong culprit for imagined or actual drops in numbers?


Now i don't want this to turn into an argument, it's just a "food for thought" thread on which i'm interested in people's opinions on both topics and more importantly in how they relate to each other.

Birdnuts

Its lazy mindness/ignorance really - as any falconer will tell you a BOP the size and activity level of a buzzard only needs the equivalent of of an adult rabbit or a couple of rats to keep going over the course of a week and do not indulge in "mass" killing like a fox or mink would do around a pen. Whereas a trigger happy gun club member can take out dozens of pheasants in one day. In any case fox predation, poor habitat, poor weather,roadkill etc. are all far bigger factors in pheasant survival. A couple of recent studies back this up

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Predation-of-released-pheasants-Phasianus-colchicus-Sage-Turner/01c9afbc35032bf491ecace84ea138f312e55395


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Impacts-and-management-of-common-buzzards-Buteo-at-Parrott/e5355df097496e8b4123c860fc037ac37b4159d2


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325933273_Why_do_many_pheasants_released_in_the_UK_die_and_how_can_we_best_reduce_their_natural_mortality

https://www.gwct.org.uk/research/species/birds/common-pheasant/fate-of-released-pheasants/

https://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_612104_en.html

Eddie B

It's the same old story. We tend to focus on those factors we feel we can do something about. Mainly pointing the finger at predator species. Of course they are a factor, but not the real problem. When it comes to pheasants, they need food and suitable habitat.

Ideal habitat will provide both food and shelter for birds, but unfortunately we are losing habitat more and more each year. In the 80's there were so many birds in our club lands. There was no talk of bag limits back then, and not a whole lot of vermin control either.

minktrapper

There is talk of the Single Farm Payment being tied in with tree planting. So that should help to stop the loss of habitat.

Cass

@EddieB - excellent points.

ganmo

minktrapper wrote: »

There is talk of the Single Farm Payment being tied in with tree planting. So that should help to stop the loss of habitat.

Itll probably be implemented in a way that'll reward destruction of existing habitats to create unsuitable ones

minktrapper

ganmo wrote: »

Itll probably be implemented in a way that'll reward destruction of existing habitats to create unsuitable ones

As in grassland will be turned in to tree plantation and other waste land will be turned into grassland so as maintain acreage of grassland on a farm.

ace86

minktrapper wrote: »

There is talk of the Single Farm Payment being tied in with tree planting. So that should help to stop the loss of habitat.

Well I hope your right but I think there should be so much of 5-10% of any farm land left idle to nature and what ever happens on it happens, or else plant game Cover crops or natural trees like oak etc which would be great.The one thing that’s hampering any farmer today is to make a profit and as we see from dairy the prices needed to rent and cultivate land is getting more expensive.The Reps and other schemes want farmers cutting and destroying any unwanted scrub or trees that they don’t see value in for the payments they receive but I feel there has to be a balance struck that nature wins and that farming wins it has always happened down through the ages why not now!!!

minktrapper

A good few farmers have said to me that they would love to plant some of their farm to help wildlife. But with pressure to make a living and falling milk and cattle prices why would they.

Asus1

I think if a club releases 200 pheasant and then the club members shoot 150 of those pheasant good luck to them.Pheasant are not a wild native bird struggling against everything nature and mankind throws at them.They have a distinct place in the ecosystem as a captive reared bird,which are released for the purpose of being shot for the table,end of.
Shooting mass amounts of wild bird duck,woodcock etc is wrong and destructive to the shooting community.These birds must breed in the wild and survive predators of the animal and human kind so i think small bag limits should apply to them.
As for a buzzard or any bird of prey taking a few pheasant imagine the countryside devoid of these birds.Imagine never seeing a buzzard catching a thermal wind and seemingly floating high in the sky or a kestrel hovering over a field looking for mice and rabbits.

useurowname

Asus1 wrote: »

I think if a club releases 200 pheasant and then the club members shoot 150 of those pheasant good luck to them.Pheasant are not a wild native bird struggling against everything nature and mankind throws at them.They have a distinct place in the ecosystem as a captive reared bird,which are released for the purpose of being shot for the table,end of.
Shooting mass amounts of wild bird duck,woodcock etc is wrong and destructive to the shooting community.Theses birds must breed in the wild and survive predators of the animal and human kind so i think small bag limits should apply to them.
As for a buzzard or any bird of prey taking a few pheasant imagine the countryside devoid of these birds.Imagine never seeing a buzzard catching a thermal wind and seemingly floating high in the sky or a kestrel hovering over a field looking for mice and rabbits.

Makes sense.

marlin vs

Asus1 wrote: »

I think if a club releases 200 pheasant and then the club members shoot 150 of those pheasant good luck to them.Pheasant are not a wild native bird struggling against everything nature and mankind throws at them.They have a distinct place in the ecosystem as a captive reared bird,which are released for the purpose of being shot for the table,end of.
Shooting mass amounts of wild bird duck,woodcock etc is wrong and destructive to the shooting community.These birds must breed in the wild and survive predators of the animal and human kind so i think small bag limits should apply to them.
As for a buzzard or any bird of prey taking a few pheasant imagine the countryside devoid of these birds.Imagine never seeing a buzzard catching a thermal wind and seemingly floating high in the sky or a kestrel hovering over a field looking for mice and rabbits.

Well said.

Eddie B

Asus1 wrote: »

I think if a club releases 200 pheasant and then the club members shoot 150 of those pheasant good luck to them.Pheasant are not a wild native bird struggling against everything nature and mankind throws at them.They have a distinct place in the ecosystem as a captive reared bird,which are released for the purpose of being shot for the table,end of.
Shooting mass amounts of wild bird duck,woodcock etc is wrong and destructive to the shooting community.These birds must breed in the wild and survive predators of the animal and human kind so i think small bag limits should apply to them.
As for a buzzard or any bird of prey taking a few pheasant imagine the countryside devoid of these birds.Imagine never seeing a buzzard catching a thermal wind and seemingly floating high in the sky or a kestrel hovering over a field looking for mice and rabbits.

The thing is, back when I was a lad, the pheasants we hunted were very wild. Not a native bird, but were born out of wild stock. They were wild, hardy and clever birds. They could survive well without any help from gun clubs. Yes things have changed over the years, and most birds come from pen reared birds. The main reason for that, is loss of suitable habitat, and very little to do with predation.

minktrapper

Eddie B wrote: »

The thing is, back when I was a lad, the pheasants we hunted were very wild. Not a native bird, but were born out of wild stock. They were wild, hardy and clever birds. They could survive well without any help from gun clubs. Yes things have changed over the years, and most birds come from pen reared birds. The main reason for that, is loss of suitable habitat, and very little to do with predation.

Why rear them when natural birds could be more available.

BryanL

Asus1 wrote: »

As for a buzzard or any bird of prey taking a few pheasant imagine the countryside devoid of these birds.Imagine never seeing a buzzard catching a thermal wind and seemingly floating high in the sky or a kestrel hovering over a field looking for mice and rabbits.

I never ever saw a single buzzard until 15 years ago.

Now I never walk a field without seeing one or several. I wonder what effect thats had on the existing balance.

Asus1

BryanL wrote: »

I never ever saw a single buzzard until 15 years ago.

Now I never walk a field without seeing one or several. I wonder what effect thats had on the existing balance.

Well i have a pair breeding between the family home and mine for at least 5 years and every year they have hatched out at least 2 chicks as you see and hear them sitting in trees and on the bigger strainer posts in the field waiting to be fed and my god are they noisy.
The land around has hares,rabbits,lapwings and migratory snipe and curlew also more crows and jackdaws than ive ever seen have appeared in the last few years.The songbirds are in my opinion fairly healthy as well.
I suspect that like most top predators when food is scarce the chicks dont survive their first year,thus numbers fall.I also rear chickens and turkeys from chicks and so far have lost none to any bird of prey or even a magpie but have to fox and mink as their kills are easy to confirm.

Kat1170

Very good program on BBC Four last night called - Unlocking Nature's Secrets: The Serengeti Rules.

All about how the reintroduction of apex predators can have as big a positive effect as removing them had a negative effect in the first place.

Watch it if you can.

Nekarsulm

Eddie B wrote: »

The thing is, back when I was a lad, the pheasants we hunted were very wild. Not a native bird, but were born out of wild stock. They were wild, hardy and clever birds. They could survive well without any help from gun clubs. Yes things have changed over the years, and most birds come from pen reared birds. The main reason for that, is loss of suitable habitat, and very little to do with predation.

Main change in the Pheasants habitat is not loss of wild land, or clearing of scrub etc, it's the total take over of silage cutting as opposed to hay making.
Fields are mown before chicks are hatched, or too young to get out of the way.
Glass scheme and Organic schemes are rowing this back a little.

Our club rules: no member may shoot more than 2 pheasants a day on club lands.
No member may shoot more than 5 phesants in any one week on club lands.

minktrapper

Agree with you there. Another thing is the density of crops of hay/silage. Young chicks haven't a hope of making their way through a crop of silage to pick for insects etc. during their first few weeks of life. More fertiliser means heavier crops. Also grass breeds have changed. They mature at an earlier date compared to the older breeds.

Eddie B

minktrapper wrote: »

Agree with you there. Another thing is the density of crops of hay/silage. Young chicks haven't a hope of making their way through a crop of silage to pick for insects etc. during their first few weeks of life. More fertiliser means heavier crops. Also grass breeds have changed. They mature at an earlier date compared to the older breeds.

Actually modern fertilizers and insecticides are a huge part of the problem. The insects are gone, and the soil sterile. There is very little for birds to eat on modern day farms, apart from eating out of feed troughs for livestock. As far as i can see, there is too much damage done, and things will only get worse.

Nekarsulm

Fertilizers yes, insecticides no.
Grassland never gets sprayed with insecticides.
Run the mower through a silage field and the insects will be half an inch thick on the hood of it.
After got down and hushed a clutch of chicks over to the hedge and safety.
Spotting them in time is the problem....

Eddie B

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Fertilizers yes, insecticides no.
Grassland never gets sprayed with insecticides.
Run the mower through a silage field and the insects will be half an inch thick on the hood of it.
After got down and hushed a clutch of chicks over to the hedge and safety.
Spotting them in time is the problem....

Sorry wasn't talking about grasslands spacifically. I was talking about farmland in general. Years ago your car windscreen would be full of splattered insects. You'd have to get the wipers and water going to see properly. Not a case anymore. And that's wether your passing grain fields or silage fields. The insects just aren't there anymore.

Capercaillie

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Fertilizers yes, insecticides no.
Grassland never gets sprayed with insecticides.
Run the mower through a silage field and the insects will be half an inch thick on the hood of it.
After got down and hushed a clutch of chicks over to the hedge and safety.
Spotting them in time is the problem....

A monoculture of ryegrass will not have much insect life compared to a multi-species sward.