General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Mr.Wemmick

Aegir wrote: »

so if the Novara piece is NOT the Labour party, can you prove that the fake news is coming from the Tory party, or do we just presume it is because we want to?

why anyone believes anything that is posted on twitter is beyond me

It is just normal run-of-the-mill disinformation regarding the child receiving treatment on the floor of a hospital. Last week it was something else.

It's the propaganda machine working full throttle 3 days before an election. Same old, same old - and if it isn't the opposition party doubling down on the lie that the NHS is doing great, well then.. it's them aliens, innit?

Rjd2

Rjd2 wrote: »

That's a dodgy road to go down. I'd need to see some proper proof regarding that.

Even if so, its somewhat irrelevant as it was unbelievably bad from Boris.

Just say I'l try and get in contact with the parents and find out why this has happened in the next day or so. That's the story killed right there.

For all their flaws, the likes of Gove, Hunt, Jaavid would have done the above.

if you read the articles rather than the spin, it is pretty obvious what happened. Boy turns up at A&E during the busiest week in three years and has to wait 4 1/2 hours for a bed, gets sleepy so rather than sleep in the chair, curls up on a pile of coats.

last time I was in A&E with my child, we waited about two hours before getting treatment and then the treatment itself took several hours. It is a very draining experience and tempers get frayed.

getting treatment in a public hospital can be a lottery. If you turn up at the right time it can be very quick, but turn up at the wrong time and it is a nightmare.

If you go back through every single election campaign for the past god knows how many years, there are similar stories rolled out. People become immune to it after a while.

Mr.Wemmick

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

It's the propaganda machine working full throttle 3 days before an election.

absolutely, it is.

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

innit?

Savanta ComRes out with a new poll, showing just a 7-point lead for the Tory party.

That's 2 days in a row with a 6-7 point lead.

Maybe the Corbyn surge has started!?

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1204306504276414464

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Savanta ComRes out with a new poll, showing just a 7-point lead for the Tory party.

That's 2 days in a row with a 6-7 point lead.

Maybe the Corbyn surge has started!?

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1204306504276414464

Fingers crossed. More like Johnson plummeting than Corbyn surging.

ArmaniJeanss

Aegir wrote: »

if you read the articles rather than the spin, it is pretty obvious what happened. Boy turns up at A&E during the busiest week in three years and has to wait 4 1/2 hours for a bed, gets sleepy so rather than sleep in the chair, curls up on a pile of coats.

Not sure this really works as a timeline, as he was on a drip when the floor-photo got taken. So it had gone beyond the waiting period.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not sure this really works as a timeline, as he was on a drip when the floor-photo got taken. So it had gone beyond the waiting period.

I seriously don't think his response to the photo was that bad.

What could he do about it except apologise!? Which he did.

I think it's Labour supporters clutching at straws, hoping this non-event somehow becomes a transformative moment in the election.

Yes, he put the journalists phone in his pocket, which is just a bit silly really. It's nothing to write home about.

Moreover, staunch Brexiteers - whether Labour or Tory - are not going to suddenly abandon their commitment to Brexit, after 3.5 arduous years, on the basis that Boris Johnson put a journalist's phone in his pocket. There are many more, legitimate and better reasons to deplore Johnson and deprive him an electoral victory.

I just don't think this benign event is one of them.

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Not sure this really works as a timeline, as he was on a drip when the floor-photo got taken. So it had gone beyond the waiting period.

Oxygen mask, not a drip

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/boy-sleeping-hospital-floor-picture-bed-shortage-leeds-nhs-winter-crisis-a9238401.html

The four-year-old was initially given a bed in the paediatric emergency department but was then moved into a clinical room because the bed was urgently needed by another patient.

The clinical room was only equipped with chairs and Jack ended up lying down on the floor with an oxygen mask on a coat.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

One person has been carded for a personal attack and there is a few more skating on thin ice. If you're just here to take potshots at people, don't post. This is a forum for debate, not flame wars.

Thanks

Leroy42

What I genuinely don't understand is why anybody is actually taking anything the Tories say in terms of police recruits, NHS spending etc as even possible.

We have the record of the last nine years, where when faced with a troubled economy they instituted austerity. All the predictions are that Brexit is going to be negative in economic terms, if only for the short term. So how are the Tories going to increase spending at a time when receipts will be going down?

It makes no sense at all to have any faith in the police numbers, teachers, NHS or whatever.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

I seriously don't think his response to the photo was that bad.

What could he do about it except apologise!? Which he did.

I think it's Labour supporters clutching at straws, hoping this non-event somehow becomes a transformative moment in the election.

Yes, he put the journalists phone in his pocket, which is just a bit silly really. It's nothing to write home about.

Moreover, staunch Brexiteers - whether Labour or Tory - are not going to suddenly abandon their commitment to Brexit, after 3.5 arduous years, on the basis that Boris Johnson put a journalist's phone in his pocket. There are many more, legitimate and better reasons to deplore Johnson and deprive him an electoral victory.

I just don't think this benign event is one of them.

Perhaps you could enumerate them for us.

hometruths

Deleted User wrote: »

I seriously don't think his response to the photo was that bad.

What could he do about it except apologise!? Which he did.

I think it's Labour supporters clutching at straws, hoping this non-event somehow becomes a transformative moment in the election.

Yes, he put the journalists phone in his pocket, which is just a bit silly really. It's nothing to write home about.

Moreover, staunch Brexiteers - whether Labour or Tory - are not going to suddenly abandon their commitment to Brexit because Boris Johnson put a journalists phone in his pocket. There are many more, legitimate and better reasons to deplore Johnson and deprive him an electoral victory.

I just don't think this benign event is one of them.

I think Johnson is a fool but I am sort of inclined to agree about the response in as far as I interpreted it as quite a human reaction - "I can't bear to look at that" - taking the phone was more instinctive than anything else.

I do it myself often when my wife is showing me pictures on her phone of suffering children in war zones, or some other grim reality I prefer not to think about.

Having said that, it is a child in an NHS hospital not a far off war zone, and he is the PM, so his reaction was catastrophically politically inept.

Given the timing of it, I think it might cost him dearly.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

What I genuinely don't understand is why anybody is actually taking anything the Tories say in terms of police recruits, NHS spending etc as even possible.

We have the record of the last nine years, where when faced with a troubled economy they instituted austerity. All the predictions are that Brexit is going to be negative in economic terms, if only for the short term. So how are the Tories going to increase spending at a time when receipts will be going down?

It makes no sense at all to have any faith in the police numbers, teachers, NHS or whatever.

Surely that logic applies to both parties?

Joe_ Public

schmittel wrote: »

I think Johnson is a fool but I am sort of inclined to agree about the response in as far as I interpreted it as quite a human reaction - "I can't bear to look at that" - taking the phone was more instinctive than anything else.

I do it myself often when my wife is showing me pictures on her phone of suffering children in war zones, or some other grim reality I prefer not to think about.

Having said that, it is a child in an NHS hospital not a far off war zone, and he is the PM, so his reaction was catastrophically politically inept.

Given the timing of it, I think it might cost him dearly.

With respect though, you or I or any normal citizens doing it to our partners is one thing, a guy expecting to be appointed prime minister doing it is something else entirely. Is that how he will handle any bad or awkward news he hears about? Shut his eyes, put hands over ears and shout na na na na etc

Thats why rest of your post is on the money, its a shocking bad look for a guy standing in his position. Still well within character when you consider past behaviour though.

awec

schmittel wrote: »

I think Johnson is a fool but I am sort of inclined to agree about the response in as far as I interpreted it as quite a human reaction - "I can't bear to look at that" - taking the phone was more instinctive than anything else.

I do it myself often when my wife is showing me pictures on her phone of suffering children in war zones, or some other grim reality I prefer not to think about.

Having said that, it is a child in an NHS hospital not a far off war zone, and he is the PM, so his reaction was catastrophically politically inept.

Given the timing of it, I think it might cost him dearly.

He is PM, and he and his party are to blame for it happening, so "saying sorry" is a little bit soft.

I doubt it will cost him anything. You look at this bumbling mess that the tories have put forward to be PM and look at the polling data, and it is clear that the brits are really willing to vote for any old rubbish.

What's important is that they get the blue passports back. Who cares about little things like underfunded health services.

Letwin_Larry

Brexit was earlier described as being like a really bad toothache.

Boris is like your local dentist, sleeves rolled up, syringe in hand, beckoning you in, saying it'll all be over in a few seconds and it wont hurt a bit.
Corbyn is like you local health food storekeeper, standing there with a basket full of herbal remedies and lefalets explaining the importance of regular brushing/flossing, and good diet.

Which one would you opt for?

awec

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Brexit was earlier described as being like a really bad toothache.

Boris is like your local dentist, sleeves rolled up, syringe in hand, beckoning you in, saying it'll all be over in a few seconds and it wont hurt a bit.
Corbyn is like you local health food storekeeper, standing there with a basket full of herbal remedies and lefalets explaining the importance of regular brushing/flossing, and good diet.

Which one would you opt for?

Boris is like your local dentist, suggesting that he remove every one of your teeth to fix the one tooth that hurts.

With Donald Trump standing over his shoulder, waiting to sell you a great pair of dentures.

Mr.Wemmick

Aegir wrote: »

absolutely, it is.

Sorry, election fatigue and poor jokes don't go together.

I am not sure I'll make it to Thursday. Saturday will be a great day to do xmas shopping, the whole country will be asleep.

sid waddell

awec wrote: »

Boris is like your local dentist, suggesting that he remove every one of your teeth to fix the one tooth that hurts.

With Donald Trump standing over his shoulder, waiting to sell you a great pair of dentures.

He's like a doctor that sees you have an ingrown toenail and tells you your foot needs to be amputated.

If you're lucky it mightn't happen because the NHS doesn't have the funds to perform the amputation.

ancapailldorcha

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Brexit was earlier described as being like a really bad toothache.

Boris is like your local dentist, sleeves rolled up, syringe in hand, beckoning you in, saying it'll all be over in a few seconds and it wont hurt a bit.
Corbyn is like you local health food storekeeper, standing there with a basket full of herbal remedies and lefalets explaining the importance of regular brushing/flossing, and good diet.

Which one would you opt for?

This is an odd analogy. It suggests that Johnson is somehow both qualified and diligent when he is neither. It only works if he proposed to do the procedure with a grenade as it will be quicker. "Get the extraction done" as it were.

ancapailldorcha

Joking aside, the Conservatives seem to have amputated their own credibility with the Matt Hancock incident along with media who are supposed to be above this:

https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1204168230346067968

https://fullfact.org/electionlive/2019/dec/9/leeds-hancock-punch/

Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1204065118683828225?s=19

We also have claims that the boy in the Leeds infirmary was staged by his mother. I genuinely do not low how much lower the British right can sink:

https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1204183081009262592

Letwin_Larry

there is now a real danger this young lad on the hospital floor is being used as a political football.

Lab need to be very careful how they play this one cos this could backfire quite spectacularly if they are perceived as trying to use his distress for political gain.

awec

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

there is now a real danger this young lad on the hospital floor is being used as a political football.

Lab need to be very careful how they play this one cos this could backfire quite spectacularly if they are perceived as trying to use his distress for political gain.

Er, no.

That’s just sweeping a real issue under the carpet. “Please don’t talk about this”.

ancapailldorcha

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

there is now a real danger this young lad on the hospital floor is being used as a political football.

Lab need to be very careful how they play this one cos this could backfire quite spectacularly if they are perceived as trying to use his distress for political gain.

Like this, do you mean:



He's just become another meal for the fake news machine.

ambro25

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

(...)

We also have claims that the boy in the Leeds infirmary was staged by his mother. I genuinely do not know how much lower the British right can sink

If the last 3+ years have taught us nothing else, it is that there is no depth that the British right will not plumb, in pursuit of their aims. None whatsoever. Their shamelessness is, literally, bottomless.

The only aspect that still surprises, after all this time, is that there are still Joe Averages ready and willing to spend time excusing-defending them, like some posters do in here. But then I suppose the British right has to get their political base from somewhere.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

Surely that logic applies to both parties?

Why . Labour are seeking a second ref which could halt the entire mess. And whilst we may think we know what will happen, in terms of the Tories we actually do know.

We know when the economy turns down they will look to cut services. We know about the massive rise in foodbanks, the massive fall off in NHS services, the lack of funding for education, sport, libraries.

hometruths

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

there is now a real danger this young lad on the hospital floor is being used as a political football.

Lab need to be very careful how they play this one cos this could backfire quite spectacularly if they are perceived as trying to use his distress for political gain.

I heard on Electioncast that his mother has written to the PPC saying please do not let the papers turn my son into an election issue.

It was LK who said that bit.

liamtech

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

there is now a real danger this young lad on the hospital floor is being used as a political football.

Lab need to be very careful how they play this one cos this could backfire quite spectacularly if they are perceived as trying to use his distress for political gain.

In an election, everything is used as a political Football - Antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, the NHS, etc etc

Its tactical on all sides - Boris behaved very poorly in relation to the Picture - so i would argue its his reaction that is being politicized, as opposed to the poor lad himself - i would also argue the BoJo is under strict orders from Cummings not to react to anything new without talking to him first - in order to plan a response. This tactic is smart but it backfired yesterday

This is also the reason BoJo wont take Andrew Neils interview - he would lose, so better to be called a coward and lose some votes, than do the interview, not be able to cope with scrutiny, and lose even more

As to polls, the one thing which they cant quite monitor is proper tactical voting. The likes of smartvote2019.com is going to steer some people to vote against natural party loyalties - Boris Johnson's actions (get brexit done, reaction to picture etc) are just one more thing which works to unite parties against him

Ask yourself this; Who is talking about possibly being in coalition with the Conservatives? No one, except possibly the Brexit Party (who probably wont get any seats - the DUP are now incompatible with the Tories thanks to the Withdrawal agreement - they would insist on renegotiation which Bojo wont do again)

Corbyn, for all his supposed toxicity, will have options for a Unity coalition -

ancapailldorcha

liamtech wrote: »

Ask yourself this; Who is talking about possibly being in coalition with the Conservatives? No one, except possibly the Brexit Party (who probably wont get any seats - the DUP are now incompatible with the Tories thanks to the Withdrawal agreement - they would insist on renegotiation which Bojo wont do again)

I think Swinson could, if she were offered a second EU referendum. Johnson is consistently devoid of conviction or principles so this would give him an easy out of the whole mess if he can make up the ERG shortfall with Labour votes.

Joe_ Public

People could just read the journalist who reported the story thread. The mother of the child was the one who contacted the newspaper so presumably she's ok with it receiving maximum publicity. As to whether she faked the whole thing, or is some lab stooge, you can see if reporter did due diligence and decide for yourselves. Peston, kuennsberg et al could maybe learn a thing or two.

https://twitter.com/DSheridanYEP/status/1204140106736656384?s=20