General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

L1011

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Hislop and Merton were bemoaning their role in enabling politicians to present themselves as jolly chaps on the last episode.
I have to say I never understood why they invited 'serving' politicos be be on - retired no issue with that - but imho the still sitting ones (of all hues) should be the targets not the shooters as it were.

Having them on as guests is bad enough most times - but having them on as presenters and giving them a professionally written script to work from is a disgrace really. And they gave Boris that, FOUR times.

Very few other sitting politicians have been given that, and they've generally been either boring (Robin Cook) or "safe" (Charles Kennedy, Hague).

Widdy was but they probably thought she was basically retired at the time - had announced she was standing down as an MP at the next election etc.

BonnieSituation

pixelburp wrote: »

Indeed; does make one wonder if they'll be more circumspect about bringing on guests or presenters who appear to be "game" politicians up for a laugh. Can't imagine Ian Hislop to be very happy about having effectively given that trio a leg up into the public domain.

Thankfully in that regard it wouldn't have the same impact as before. It's no longer the essential viewing behemoth it once was.

You have to remember that Boris was one of the first guest hosts after the Deayton Incident. And became a hit in that sphere.

I have a best of HIGNFY VHS with Boris on it; that's how long ago it was!

we are going to put everyone on a four day week, pay everyone more and make all your bills go down, therefore making everyone better off.

economics obviously not Labour's strong point.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

we have effectively had a hung parliament for the last two years and look where that has gotten us?

For what you are suggesting to happen, would require a rainbow coalition to happen which would result in nothing but parliament wrapped up in internal squabbles.

True but it would curb Corbyn's more unpalatable excesses as well as give MP's the only way out of this mess. It would be temporary and enable the country to move on. The public remain divided and are likely to elect either a very slim Conservative majority or a Hung Parliament.

Aegir wrote: »

only if he lost to an overall majority, which seems highly unlikely.

The protocol is that the party with the most seats gets the first attempt at forming a government, which is likely to mean Conservatives plus whoever. If it is labour plus SNP, for example then it would require labour to drop their manifesto pledge and not renegotiate the deal and most likely to allow a Scottish independence referendum.

Johnson will need support and nobody will sign up to that so it will be Corbyn negotiating with Sturgeon and Swinson to form a coalition in the event of a Hung Parliament.

BonnieSituation

Aegir wrote: »

we are going to put everyone on a four day week, pay everyone more and make all your bills go down, therefore making everyone better off.

economics obviously not Labour's strong point.

It's not really the Tories' strong point either.

I fail to understand how people wouldn't want to work less for similar money. It seems daft to be against it? No?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Johnson will need support and nobody will sign up to that so it will be Corbyn negotiating with Sturgeon and Swinson to form a coalition in the event of a Hung Parliament.

it would be hard to imagine the three of them finding enough common ground for it to work to be honest.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's not really the Tories' strong point either.

I fail to understand how people wouldn't want to work less for similar money. It seems daft to be against it? No?

A supermarket chain employs 10,000 people on £9 per hour across their supermarkets.

in the future they will have to employ 12,500 people and pay them £10 per hour.

what will this do to the price of groceries in the supermarket?

A) make them cheaper
make them more expensive
C) make them a hell of a lot more expensive
D) tax everyone on £80k more so they can pay for it

taking in to consideration, of course, that all companies involved in the supply chain are also facing the same considerations.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

it would be hard to imagine the three of them finding enough common ground for it to work to be honest.

I don't see how. All three are opposed to Brexit and all three, including the SNP support a People's Vote.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't see how. All three are opposed to Brexit and all three, including the SNP support a People's Vote.

and if a second referendum gives the same result?

The only way for the UK to resolve it differences is for the WA to be signed and to formally leave the european union. Until that happens there will always be deep divisions.

When that is signed, any sensible leader would take time negotiating a deal and offering that to the people, but there are no sensible leaders at the moment.

whatawaster

There is an awful lot i'm seeing on Twitter about tactical voting between Lib Dem and Labour.

It seems to be an online campaign more so than anything official - but the effectiveness of this campaign will surely decide whether or not the Tories get a majority.

Here's Swinson calling on Labour voters to switch to LD in key LD target constituencies:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/10/empathy-bypass-lib-dem-jo-swinson-attacks-pm-in-tactical-voting-call

But not a peep from her encouraging LD voters to do the same for Labour.

robinph

Aegir wrote: »

A supermarket chain employs 10,000 people on £9 per hour across their supermarkets.

in the future they will have to employ 12,500 people and pay them £10 per hour.

what will this do to the price of groceries in the supermarket?

A) make them cheaper
make them more expensive
C) make them a hell of a lot more expensive
D) tax everyone on £80k more so they can pay for it

taking in to consideration, of course, that all companies involved in the supply chain are also facing the same considerations.

I assume that the number of hours in a day isn't going to be changing though?

In which case the changes would be that the hourly rate is increased, the number of people working increases and potentially some people work hours that are more friendly to the rest of their life than before and some will end up not paying any tax.

whatawaster

Aegir wrote: »

The only way for the UK to resolve it differences is for the WA to be signed and to formally leave the european union

How will that resolve differences. Close to half of the population don't want to leave the EU. More than half if polling since the referendum is to be believed.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

I assume that the number of hours in a day isn't going to be changing though?

no, but neither will the number of hours the supermarket is open.

robinph wrote: »

In which case the changes would be that the hourly rate is increased, the number of people working increases and potentially some people work hours that are more friendly to the rest of their life than before and some will end up not paying any tax.

how did you come to that conclusion? a supermarket open 8am to 10pm will require the same amount of labour hours to operate, but apparently people will be working less and paid more, so the supermarket will require more staff.

for people to drop off the tax radar, they will have to take a pay cut, which doesn't really fit in with the claim of people having £6700 more in their pocket.

Bannasidhe

robinph wrote: »

I assume that the number of hours in a day isn't going to be changing though?

In which case the changes would be that the hourly rate is increased, the number of people working increases and potentially some people work hours that are more friendly to the rest of their life than before and some will end up not paying any tax.

Also, one of the reasons for this proposal is the increase in automation and supermarkets are a prime example of this with their 'self-service' tills.
Supermarkets now have 1 or 2 employees 'monitoring' a bank of tills where previously they had 6 or 7 employees working the tills.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

and if a second referendum gives the same result?

The only way for the UK to resolve it differences is for the WA to be signed and to formally leave the european union. Until that happens there will always be deep divisions.

Referendums heal 'division' in proper democracies. That is what they are designed to do.
What the UK needs to do is have a deep conversation about proper democracy and run a proper referendum, with all the information available.

A Dub in Glasgo

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Speaking on not stepping down the SNP will be retuning an Anti-Semite named Neale Hanvey as it was "too late" to stop him officially but what's notable is that he is flying very much under the SNP flag with backing at local level by party members.

Can you highlight what he done to make him an anti-semite?

whatawaster

whatawaster wrote: »

How will that resolve differences. Close to half of the population don't want to leave the EU. More than half if polling since the referendum is to be believed.

and more than half want to leave, but have differing opinions on what leaving actually is.

The only way to know for sure what leaving the EU looks like, is to go out and negotiate the deal, at this point everyone will have the full facts at hand and there can be no bluffing.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Also, one of the reasons for this proposal is the increase in automation and supermarkets are a prime example of this with their 'self-service' tills.
Supermarkets now have 1 or 2 employees 'monitoring' a bank of tills where previously they had 6 or 7 employees working the tills.

getting rid of staff is hardly going to help put £6716 in people's pockets.

IAmTheReign

Aegir wrote: »

and if a second referendum gives the same result?

The only way for the UK to resolve it differences is for the WA to be signed and to formally leave the european union. Until that happens there will always be deep divisions.

When that is signed, any sensible leader would take time negotiating a deal and offering that to the people, but there are no sensible leaders at the moment.

If the Torys, as the only mainstream party supporting Brexit, fail to get a majority the WA is finished. The only reason Johnson wanted the election was to get a big enough majority to force through his deal without scrutiny because he knows it would never pass otherwise. Without that majority his WA is toast.

There is absolutely no reason to think signing the WA will resolve any of the issues in the UK. People who are against it now won't suddenly shrug and forget, and the problems in the UK that lead to people voting Brexit won't magically disappear.

IAmTheReign

Aegir wrote: »

The only way to know for sure what leaving the EU looks like, is to go out and negotiate the deal, at this point everyone will have the full facts at hand and there can be no bluffing.

They've done that twice already! Boris pulled his own WA and called an election when parliament said they wanted the chance to debate the facts.

IAmTheReign

IAmTheReign wrote: »

They've done that twice already! Boris pulled his own WA and called an election when parliament said they wanted the chance to debate the facts.

I am referring to the trade deal, not the withdrawal agreement.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

and if a second referendum gives the same result?

Then that's it. GG for the remain side. If people, despite the lies and fake news still want to leave then I'm out of arguments.

Aegir wrote: »

The only way for the UK to resolve it differences is for the WA to be signed and to formally leave the european union. Until that happens there will always be deep divisions.

When that is signed, any sensible leader would take time negotiating a deal and offering that to the people, but there are no sensible leaders at the moment.

How does this resolve any differences? All it does is fire the starting pistol. There's still the future relationship and trade deal to formulate which will entail discussions about how much alignment with Brussels, if indeed any there should be.

The deal can't be offered to the people because remain will not be an option so it needs to happen now. If it happens later then the UK risks years of decline and humiliation along with the loss of its influence in EU lawmaking, the veto and possibly sterling depending on how much the Europeans push the Euro in future accession talks.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

we are going to put everyone on a four day week, pay everyone more and make all your bills go down, therefore making everyone better off.

economics obviously not Labour's strong point.

Meanwhile in the real world, over the last ten years have seen under Conservative's watch

Homeless increasing
Policing budgets and numbers cut
NHS funds and staffing numbers cut
Increased need for food banks and number of them.

Empathy and a civilised society obviously not Conservative's strong point.

IAmTheReign

IAmTheReign wrote: »

If the Torys, as the only mainstream party supporting Brexit, fail to get a majority the WA is finished.

the WA only goes away when the UK cancels article 50, or leaves the eu.

Bannasidhe

Aegir wrote: »

getting rid of staff is hardly going to help put £6716 in people's pockets.

You are framing this to imply supermarkets will get rid of staff due to Labour's policy which is disingenuous. Supermarkets have already gotten rid of staff and this is made easier for them due to increased automation.
Tesco UK, for example, has shed thousands of staff - nothing to do with Labour policies.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/tesco-to-cut-4500-jobs-from-uk-stores-941937.html

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world, over the last ten years have seen under Conservative's watch

Homeless increasing
Policing budgets and numbers cut
NHS funds and staffing numbers cut
Increased need for food banks and number of them.

Empathy and a civilised society obviously not Conservative's strong point.

and we can fix all that by growing magic money trees I suppose?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You are framing this to imply supermarkets will get rid of staff due to Labour's policy which is disingenuous. Supermarkets have already gotten rid of staff and this is made easier for them due to increased automation.
Tesco UK, for example, has shed thousands of staff - nothing to do with Labour policies.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/tesco-to-cut-4500-jobs-from-uk-stores-941937.html

so it is irrelevant to the point I was making then?

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

and we can fix all that by growing magic money trees I suppose?

Why not just use the one that spawned a billion pounds for the DUP's bribe?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How does this resolve any differences? All it does is fire the starting pistol. There's still the future relationship and trade deal to formulate which will entail discussions about how much alignment with Brussels, if indeed any there should be.

The deal can't be offered to the people because remain will not be an option so it needs to happen now. If it happens later then the UK risks years of decline and humiliation along with the loss of its influence in EU lawmaking, the veto and possibly sterling depending on how much the Europeans push the Euro in future accession talks.

battle lines have been drawn and trenches dug.

even if remain win, then there will still be a Brexit/UKIP party campaigning for yet another referendum and the whole cycle carries on with the two sides battling it out in no man's land.

I can't see any other way out of it.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why not just use the one that spawned a billion pounds for the DUP's bribe?

come on, you know that was in actual fact just an advance to give the DUP something to crow about.

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

battle lines have been drawn and trenches dug.

even if remain win, then there will still be a Brexit/UKIP party campaigning for yet another referendum and the whole cycle carries on with the two sides battling it out in no man's land.

I can't see any other way out of it.

And if Leave win you have a disgruntled remain side that won't be going anywhere.

Remain fixes nothing save for averting disaster. Tackling inequality and people's reasons for voting to leave have to be the next step.