General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Letwin_Larry

SkyNews in West Bromwich interviewing a market-stall keeper. Exactly the same story. Fear of Jeremy's back to the future style 1970s winter of discontent, marxism.
also a visceral mistrust and dislike of Jeremy coming through.

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

Sad case that I am, I went through every seat over the last few days to try and come up with my own MRP poll.

I have the Tories on 359 (like YouGov).
Labour on 199
Lib Dem 22
SNP 45
Plaid Cymru 5
Green 1
Independent 1

In NI I have:
DUP 9
Sinn Fein 6
SDLP 2
UUP 1

This was a pretty decent prediction even if I say so myself...

10000maniacs

hotmail.com wrote: »

Brexit isn't a cult.

The majority have legitimate reasons for leaving the EU.

This kind of language is part of the problem.

It kind of is.
Most voters cannot describe the workings of a toilet.
The EU and the international trade negotiations are even trickier.
The only way to handle complex issues is therefore to listen to experts.
Politicians sometimes did that, until the cult of Brexit came along.
Let the truth nuance your views. If your genuine beliefs contradict reality, deny reality.
When you know your class will always prosper, take reckless gambles. You'll be fine.
Send the foot-soldiers over the bunker to do your fighting.
Brexiteers in a nutshell.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

To users like Aegir and Eskimohunt - Im gonna say to you we will never agree on policy, and brexit. But You won. And i congratulate you, honestly and genuinely. Its a stunning victory, i dare say beyond your own expectations perhaps - But you won and i genuinely congratulate you. And for what its worth i hope i am totally wrong about brexit, and Johnson - because he won - YOU won

This is a difficult post for me to write because im emotional, and angry - and i dare say i probably wont make any friends today - and if im ignored so be it - but to the victors go the spoils - so well done

I think we've earned that kind of praise, so I appreciate that. I'd like to think that some voters in the UK have read and been convinced by my output on here, even if they haven't directly posted it. In that sense, I'd like to think I contributed somewhat to the Johnson victory.

I can't bring myself to return the compliment and say, "Commiserations", because I wouldn't mean it. A Corbyn regime would have been exceptionally damaging to the UK on three fronts: democracy, economy, and foreign policy/national security.

You now need to get on board Brexit, perhaps also taking the time to learn about how hard socialism has destroyed every country that has implemented it, and how managed free-market capitalism -- not corporatism -- is the best way to lift the economy and social floor of every country on the planet.

Brexit, if implemented by Johnson, means that the UK can now become a global player; control her own borders; maintain identity and culture; restoration of fishing communities; free trade deals around the world; and much, much more. This is a positive election result for the UK and beings manifest benefits to the country. It's time that you simply accept these benefits rather than hoping Brexit will be a disaster just to prove yourself right.

Strazdas

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

SkyNews in West Bromwich interviewing a market-stall keeper. Exactly the same story. Fear of Jeremy's back to the future style 1970s winter of discontent, marxism.
also a visceral mistrust and dislike of Jeremy coming through.

The right wing press did a great job on the electorate. Virtually everything they accused Corbyn of is being repeated back parrot fashion in vox pops.

MPFGLB

Well as a person who voted and believed in Remain I hope Boris sorts the political aspect of Brexit by end of Jan

I also hope he works for a deal (which I believe he will) and takes his time to get it right
I think he will want a deal and avoid no deal as like most politicians he knows no deal is not a viable option plus more needs to be done to get outside EU trade deals

I would like to see an injection of cash into NHS and social care asap

Happy NI has more nationalist MPs now and I hope they come to HoC and put the case for NI esp opportunities post brexit for NI being in an open trade zone between UK & EU

Scotland will now be all about independence ..not sure they will get their referendum in the next 5 years

ILoveYourVibes

Honestly .....its a terrible day for the UK.

I didn't like Corbyn ..but i would have voted for him and put up with him for 4 yrs for a chance of another ref and to avoid Boris and his entitled cronies.

But there you go ..they want to stitch themselves up good and proper.

MPFGLB wrote: »

Well as a person who voted and believed in Remain I hope Boris sorts the political aspect of Brexit by end of Jan

I also hope he works for a deal (which I believe he will) and takes his time to get it right
I think he will want a deal and avoid no deal as like most politicians he knows no deal is not a viable option plus more needs to be done to get outside EU trade deals

I would like to see an injection of cash into NHS and social care asap

Happy NI has more nationalist MPs now and I hope they come to HoC and put the case for NI esp opportunities post brexit for NI being in an open trade zone between UK & EU

Scotland will now be all about independence ..not sure they will get their referendum in the next 5 years

They will NEVER keep their promises.

facehugger99

Strazdas wrote: »

The right wing press did a great job on the electorate. Virtually everything they accused Corbyn of is being repeated back parrot fashion in vox pops.

And Corbyn made it very easy for them to do so.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

I think we've earned that kind of praise, so I appreciate that. I'd like to think that some voters in the UK have read and been convinced by my output on here, even if they haven't directly posted it. In that sense, I'd like to think I contributed somewhat to the Johnson victory.

I can't bring myself to return the compliment and say, "Commiserations", because I wouldn't mean it. A Corbyn regime would have been exceptionally damaging to the UK on three fronts: democracy, economy, and foreign policy/national security.

You now need to get on board Brexit, perhaps also taking the time to learn about how hard socialism has destroyed every country that has implemented it, and how managed free-market capitalism -- not corporatism -- is the best way to lift the economy and social floor of every country on the planet.

Brexit, if implemented by Johnson, means that the UK can now become a global player; control her own borders; maintain identity and culture; restoration of fishing communities; free trade deals around the world; and much, much more. This is a positive election result for the UK and beings manifest benefits to the country. It's time that you simply accept these benefits rather than hoping Brexit will be a disaster just to prove yourself right.

Well saying commiserations, and being magnanimous really shouldnt be that big a task but anyway

As to coming on board with brexit - :rolleyes: - no il pass - the only positive is that the Withdrawal agreement, which doesnt mess up the GFA, is the only show in town

BTW Swinson is live on SKY - my head hurts

Anyway il keep debating but to my friends on the left - we need to talk about jeremy

what i will do is this - il apologize - when Corbyn won the leadership election, and Blair (who i hate) et al - claimed this would make Labour unelectable - i thought they were attacking Corbyn on policy alone - as blairites

But i kinda feel they were warning us - and we probably should have listened -

Professor Moriarty

MPFGLB wrote: »

Well as a person who voted and believed in Remain I hope Boris sorts the political aspect of Brexit by end of Jan

I also hope he works for a deal (which I believe he will) and takes his time to get it right
I think he will want a deal and avoid no deal as like most politicians he knows no deal is not a viable option plus more needs to be done to get outside EU trade deals

I would like to see an injection of cash into NHS and social care asap

Happy NI has more nationalist MPs now and I hope they come to HoC and put the case for NI esp opportunities post brexit for NI being in an open trade zone between UK & EU

Scotland will now be all about independence ..not sure they will get their referendum in the next 5 years

There was zero chance of that happening to date. There's less of a chance now.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I think we've earned that kind of praise, so I appreciate that. I'd like to think that some voters in the UK have read and been convinced by my output on here, even if they haven't directly posted it. In that sense, I'd like to think I contributed somewhat to the Johnson victory.

I can't bring myself to return the compliment and say, "Commiserations", because I wouldn't mean it. A Corbyn regime would have been exceptionally damaging to the UK on three fronts: democracy, economy, and foreign policy/national security.

You now need to get on board Brexit, perhaps also taking the time to learn about how hard socialism has destroyed every country that has implemented it, and how managed free-market capitalism -- not corporatism -- is the best way to lift the economy and social floor of every country on the planet.

Brexit, if implemented by Johnson, means that the UK can now become a global player; control her own borders; maintain identity and culture; restoration of fishing communities; free trade deals around the world; and much, much more. This is a positive election result for the UK and beings manifest benefits to the country. It's time that you simply accept these benefits rather than hoping Brexit will be a disaster just to prove yourself right.

I am not hoping Brexit will be a disaster. If someone throws themself off a cliff I will hope for the best but I will expect the worst as it is the most likely.

Still Boris seems to be fairly soft Brexitish when the chips are down. Hopefully he wil stick to talking a big game and play sensibly.

The benefits you talk about are likely imaginary. There is no need for the US to give a free trade deal without controlling the nhs. India and China will demand control of your borders etc.

You can't simply demand free trade from other countries when it suits you.

You won the game but I feel everyone loses with this result.

boggerman1

The arrogance of Jo Swinson on full display on sky.blaming everyone else for her failings.glad she lost her seat.

10000maniacs

Strazdas wrote: »

The right wing press did a great job on the electorate. Virtually everything they accused Corbyn of is being repeated back parrot fashion in vox pops.

Corbyn gave them all the ammunition they needed.
I mean, negotiate a trade deal with Brussels, and put it back to the people with remain on the ballot.
Why would the EU give him a deal if most of his party would campaign against it?
Incredibly stupid strategy.

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

The right wing press did a great job on the electorate. Virtually everything they accused Corbyn of is being repeated back parrot fashion in vox pops.

i agree but poor Jeremy supplied them with an arsenal of ammunition.
i think probably the worst/best slur they could attach to him, apart from being a stubborn, quasi-intellectual economic illiterate was that he is a TRAITOR.

whenever the people of Britian came under attack, rightly or wrongly he always seemed to side with the enemy.

and as we all know since Tudor times there's a place in London for those.

Chips Lovell

Wrexham was an even bigger disaster for Labour. The Tories managed to lose a a couple of hundred votes compared to 2017 but still win the seat because Labour hemorrhaged 4,000 votes.

Professor Moriarty

10000maniacs wrote: »

Corbyn gave them all the ammunition they needed.
I mean, negotiate a trade deal with Brussels, and put it back to the people with remain on the ballot.
Why would the EU give him a deal if most of his party would campaign against it?
Incredibly stupid strategy.

Imagine negotiating a deal and then refusing to campaign for that very deal.

kilns

The only people to blame for this mess are the Labour Party themselves. This is 2016 all over again, where if it was anyone but Hillary Trump would not have won and if Labour had sorted themselves out and had an acceptable figure head they would won this election because they were up against Boris FFS. The common demoninator people didnt vote for Labour was Corbyn so shame on Labour! The Tories will be the Tories and every one knows it. The UK in 5 years time could be a very different place than what it is now considering they have free reign to do what they want now.

As I said shame on Labour

Professor Moriarty

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Wrexham was an even bigger disaster for Labour. The Tories managed to lose a a couple of hundred votes compared to 2017 but still win the seat because Labour hemorrhaged 4,000 votes.

This is where the election was won and lost.
The Tory vote increased by 300,000.
The Labour vote decreased by 2.500,000.

Christy42

MPFGLB wrote: »

Well as a person who voted and believed in Remain I hope Boris sorts the political aspect of Brexit by end of Jan

I also hope he works for a deal (which I believe he will) and takes his time to get it right
I think he will want a deal and avoid no deal as like most politicians he knows no deal is not a viable option plus more needs to be done to get outside EU trade deals

I would like to see an injection of cash into NHS and social care asap

Happy NI has more nationalist MPs now and I hope they come to HoC and put the case for NI esp opportunities post brexit for NI being in an open trade zone between UK & EU

Scotland will now be all about independence ..not sure they will get their referendum in the next 5 years

Can't imagine they will get the chance to vote on it.

You can't simply vote to leave the very democratic UK like you can to leave the very undemocratic EU.

Wait that doesn't seem right but anyway the Scots won't be given a bit eand will be dragged out of the EU.

I reckon Boris will be happy to give NI EU access. Anything else involves thinking a out NI for more than a few minutes and many don't really consider it as part of their country anyway. He will have no issues throwing the DUP under a bus.

Letwin_Larry

Jeremy hates everything GB stands for in much the same way a rabid SF republican or Islamist would. which is fair enough if that's where you are coming from i can respect that point of view. people dont arrive at those positions for no good reason.

but for heaven's sake don't expect the British people to elect you to the position of PM

MPFGLB

"Shame on Labour " ???


If Labour had Dominic Cummings they would have won
Labour were not just in 1970 re policy they were there re polling, sound bites,messages, and media management

Cummings played dirty and he won ...simple

liamtech

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

This is where the election was won and lost.
The Tory vote increased by 300,000.
The Labour vote decreased by 2.500,000.

That is where the election was won and lost

The question is why? and honestly i have my opinion -

the argument seems to be split several different ways now - some blame socialism - some blame Brexit

Im interested in the discussion but emotions are running high so

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Imagine negotiating a deal and then refusing to campaign for that very deal.

The EU would have been angered by such a thing and might well have told him to get lost.

quokula

Strazdas wrote: »

The EU would have been angered by such a thing and might well have told him to get lost.

The EU would have been angered by the UK potentially remaining? Really?

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

To users like Aegir and Eskimohunt - Im gonna say to you we will never agree on policy, and brexit. But You won. And i congratulate you, honestly and genuinely. Its a stunning victory, i dare say beyond your own expectations perhaps - But you won and i genuinely congratulate you. And for what its worth i hope i am totally wrong about brexit, and Johnson - because he won - YOU won

This is a difficult post for me to write because im emotional, and angry - and i dare say i probably wont make any friends today - and if im ignored so be it - but to the victors go the spoils - so well done

Personally I don't feel like a winner. My hope from all of this was that there was Tory majority so that the WA can get approved. I don't want the UK to leave the EU, but I fell it needs to now, otherwise it will never move on from the stagnation for the last two years. I do also believe the outcome of the referendum needs to be respected.

I am by no stretch of the imagination a true blue Tory, I would consider myself a floating voter, but there was no way I could imagine the UK going back to the 1970s, which is what Corbyn's politics seemed to be. I have nothing against him as such, parliament needs Jeremy Corbyns around the place, but not as prime minister. He should be somewhere in the background applying pressure, not setting policy. The momentum faction that seems to have taken over the party though just reminds me too much of Militant. It made Labour un-electable thirty years ago and seems to have done the same again. where the next Neil Kinnock is going to come from though, god only knows.

kilns

MPFGLB wrote: »

"Shame on Labour " ???


If Labour had Dominic Cummings they would have won
Labour were not just in 1970 re policy they were there re polling, sound bites,messages, and media management

Cummings played dirty and he won ...simple

Cummings or anyone of any intelligence would have known Corbyn was toxic and there was no chance they would win with him. So yes shame on them for letting the tories gain a majority

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

The EU would have been angered by such a thing and might well have told him to get lost.

at least now Barnier knows what he's dealing with.
i actually think he's relieved.

i know from my own experience in business, the worst type of person to deal with is somebody who doesn't know what they bloody want. it's infuriating cos it's a waste of valuable time.

feargale

Nody wrote: »

People had a free choice of whom to vote for with multiple parties on the list to choose from with different views and agendas, there were no state enforced or party enforced physical intimidation or control, there was no large scale voter fraud (at least to date) and no reports from any observers about tampering with votes. Now you may disagree with how the system is setup but the voters voted down in 2011 a change to it; hence while not a direct democracy it does fulfill any western definitions of democracy.

Ok, we get it. UK is more democratic than Myanmar, Saudi Arabia and Equatorial Guinea. Let's hope UK keeps progressing in the right direction.

Face reality. While this landslide may render the point somewhat less relevant this time, FPTP exists purely for the purpose of divvying the spoils between Tories and Labour to the exclusion of all others.. FPTP was fine in the 18th century when European democracy was taking baby steps. PR has been around since it was first used in the Swiss cantons of Neuchatel and Ticino in the second half of the 19th century. It has since been adopted by virtually every European democracy. In this, like soldier Johnny, the whole of Europe is out of step with UK. Even Russia has a rough and ready proportionality with run off elections.

Years ago my politics lecturer outlined the arguments for and against PR. The big argument for FPTP was that it keeps out extremes. J. give me a break. It doesn't. And it is a form of the post-Sukarno Indonesian system of "guided democracy", i.e. manipulating the result. The abolition of PR in 1929 in Northern Ireland facilitated the worst political abuses.

And "it's simpler." No, it's not. In PR the dumbest voter has only to ponder their 1st, 2nd choice etc, and who they dislike most. I heard a story of an illiterate woman voting viva voce in Cork who was heard: "1 to x, 2 to y, 3 to z (all Labour) and f--k the rest of them." Simple as that.
Now take the case of say a Cornish nationalist voting. I decide a vote for Mebyon is a wasted vote, but do I stand by my principles or engage in realpolitik? Maybe I should ask my confessor. My next preference is Lib Dem, but is it also wasted? I don't know. They did well here last time but didn't win. Maybe I should keep a close eye on opinion polls. I have a clear preference between Tory and Labour, but should I abandon my 1st and 2nd preferences? You call that simple? I would need to be a mathematician and a seer, and forget reading the opinion polls if I'm illiterate.
Oh I get it. FPTP is easier for those conducting the count. God love their educational system. And it makes for more entertaining tv on the night. Haven't they Eastenders and reality tv?


It must be clear now that the two wings of Labour have no business in the same party. They should amicably divorce, and then they could in time form a coalition government and finally introduce PR. Labour had the chance in the past to introduce PR. Their failure to do so has left them reaping the whirlwind.

MPFGLB

I must say I dislike immensely all this defammation of both Corbyn and Swinson characters on here

Saying they are arrogant or dont like the UK is just ridiculous

If anything they were naive and ill informed but both had the best of intentions for there heartland

That some people feel they can deride their characters when Boris Johnson is a know liar and racist is just ridiculous

Vitriol is rotten

kilns

MPFGLB wrote: »

I must say I dislike immensely all this defammation of both Corbyn and Swinson characters on here

Saying they are arrogant or dont like the UK is just ridiculous

If anything they were naive and ill informed but both had the best of intentions for there heartland

That some people feel they can deride their characters when Boris Johnson is a know liar and racist is just ridiculous

Vitriol is rotten

I admire Corbyn as he sticks by his principals despite what anyone says. But he is not the guy to lead Labour as his views can be too extreme for some and Labour should have recognised this. Remains to be seen who will replace him