General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Fr Tod Umptious

I love the way that Irish people here lecture the British on their voting choice, as if we have never voted for a party or candidates based on lies, soundbites, lofty promises.

Heck we'll probably do it in a few months when FF regain power after all the destruction they caused.

Letwin_Larry

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Humans don't tend to think logically when angry and desperate

indeed you just have to look at how the Lab party is tearing itself apart in the wake of this electoral disaster.
i mean in all sincerity could anybody have predicted an 80 seat majority. not since Maggie.
5 years of Tory power, and Brexit a certainty.

not bad going for Boris the bufoon. eh?
Cummings surely is a genius.

Lefty Bicek

Shelga wrote: »

...

But I know a lot of working-class English people, and them voting Tory still makes me feel sick. They have voted for easy soundbites, for complete, utter lies, and let's face it- it is them being driven by their baser fears. I know these people. If they're not racist, they're definitely insular, inward-looking and selfish- I've been told repeatedly that they couldn't care less about the fate of NI or Scotland.

Why do I have to respect that? Why does anyone?

Why does anyone have to respect your inability to accept a democratic vote ?

Your characterisation of the working-class people that you claim to know is insulting and condescending. We do not know better than they do, and of the many things that they are possibly frustrated by, I'll bet that high on the list is the constant pejorative depiction of them and their motives by outsiders who see 'oh so clearly'.

As for NI - an English person wanting to be rid of that place is a sure sign of a sound mind. For how many generations should they pay for the sins of the fathers ?

Brexit is, and always will be, a moronic act of self-harm, on an epic scale.

I think you are turning your anxiety about the consequences this will have for all of us, into an opportunity for derogatory judgementalism over other people's decision. A decision that they had every right to make.

Characterising people who disagree with you as 'moronic' - when does that ever work ?

If I had been one of these English voters, who couldn't stick Corbyn, I would have voted for Green, Independent, Lib Dem- literally anyone other than Tories or the Brexit Party. If more people had done this, it would least have started a conversation about electoral reform.

Actually, the debate about electoral reform has been going on for a long, long time in the UK. Farage has spoken about it. Under some projections of alternatives to FPTP, UKIP would have taken, iirc, ~50 seats in the election a couple of years back.

What would you have thought of electoral reform then ?

It all comes down to Brexit though, doesn't it. Incredibly depressing stuff.

From our point of view ? It all comes down to us being reliant on the benefits of a club which contains other members who don't want to be in the club any more.

L1011

Under a proportional system, The Referendum Party would likely have taken a few seats in 92 and fizzled out by 97. UKIP would likely not have really happened

Shelga

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Why does anyone have to respect your inability to accept a democratic vote ?

Your characterisation of the working-class people that you claim to know is insulting and condescending. We do not know better than they do, and of the many things that they are possibly frustrated by, I'll bet that high on the list is the constant pejorative depiction of them and their motives by outsiders who see 'oh so clearly'.

As for NI - an English person wanting to be rid of that place is a sure sign of a sound mind. For how many generations should they pay for the sins of the fathers ?



I think you are turning your anxiety about the consequences this will have for all of us, into an opportunity for derogatory judgementalism over other people's decision. A decision that they had every right to make.

Characterising people who disagree with you as 'moronic' - when does that ever work ?



Actually, the debate about electoral reform has been going on for a long, long time in the UK. Farage has spoken about it. Under some projections of alternatives to FPTP, UKIP would have taken, iirc, ~50 seats in the election a couple of years back.

What would you have thought of electoral reform then ?



From our point of view ? It all comes down to us being reliant on the benefits of a club which contains other members who don't want to be in the club any more.

Of course I accept the result, in the sense that, it's not like I think it was tampered with or anything. I accept that people voted Tory and Brexit is definitely happening.

I am not saying I see "oh so clearly"- far from it. The people who voted Tory are the ones under the illusion that they see oh-so-clearly.

I am not a politician, I am not in the public eye- I can call the decision to leave the EU moronic if I wish. This is a discussion forum, no?

Yeah, I judge people who vote Tory. Get over it.

O'Neill

Anybody a fan of John Harris?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7eG1kbdr0M&t=1s

One of the people he interviews on the doorstep before the election is someone who is a lifetime Labour supporter but voted for the Conservatives this time. When asked how he felt after he voted, he replied 'not good really' I'm not sure if this is a reflection of people like him but how perverse is that? What a sad state of affairs.

Dyr

sid waddell wrote: »

What Labour has to be is a party that promotes economic justice and social justice. Otherwise it has no purpose.
.

Is that right?



Even poor old Ed saw the iceberg, bit late in the day mind. You just raced straight into it and then stood on the bridge saluting as the good ship Labour went down while berating everyone else for having jumped the life boats.

Lefty Bicek

L1011 wrote: »

Under a proportional system, The Referendum Party would likely have taken a few seats in 92 and fizzled out by 97. UKIP would likely not have really happened

I was referring to alternative scenaria that have been projected for discrete elections, not presenting a chronology based on suppositions.

Simply to counter the uninformed view that if people who couldn't stomach Corbyn had taken any other alternative to the Tories, that it would have 'started' a conversation about electoral reform.

Here's one view, based on the 2015 story -

UKIP would have been a force to be reckoned with in the Commons with 83 seats.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32601281

Water John

The poorer parts of the UK have been kicked in the nuts by Tories for the last 30 years. Thursday they said, 'please sir, can I have some more'.

Lefty Bicek

Shelga wrote: »

I am not saying I see "oh so clearly"- far from it.

Yet this is what you said three quarters of an hour earlier...

Brexit is, and always will be, a moronic act of self-harm, on an epic scale.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112016442&postcount=5575

Not ambiguous, I would say.

Perhaps we should all pay more attention to how sure we are of our own minds, before condescending to judge others for what we believe to be theirs.

Joe_ Public

O'Neill wrote: »

Anybody a fan of John Harris?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7eG1kbdr0M&t=1s

One of the people he interviews on the doorstep before the election is someone who is a lifetime Labour supporter but voted for the Conservatives this time. When asked how he felt after he voted, he replied 'not good really' I'm not sure if this is a reflection of people like him but how perverse is that? What a sad state of affairs.

Yes, big fan of John Harris. Fine, understated reporter, one of the best in the uk.

Interesting stat in that piece is the labour vote share in Blair's old sedgefield stomping ground through the last 5 elections:

71%, 65%, 59%, 45%, 36%.

Thats a trend mirrored in many like constituencies and will help frame the debate as to how they rebuild from the ashes of this disaster.

Lefty Bicek

Water John wrote: »

The poorer parts of the UK have been kicked in the nuts by Tories for the last 30 years. Thursday they said, 'please sir, can I have some more'.

Labour government, 1997 - 2010.

That's a fair chunk of the last thirty years.

Shelga

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I was referring to alternative scenaria that have been projected for discrete elections, not presenting a chronology based on suppositions.

Simply to counter the uninformed view that if people who couldn't stomach Corbyn had taken any other alternative to the Tories, that it would have 'started' a conversation about electoral reform.

Here's one view, based on the 2015 story -



https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2015-32601281

They might have had 83 seats, but that's all they ever would have had- rather than their ideology infecting the Conservative Party and leading to Brexit.

Shelga

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Yet this is what you said three quarters of an hour earlier...



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112016442&postcount=5575

Not ambiguous, I would say.

Perhaps we should all pay more attention to how sure we are of our own minds, before condescending to judge others for what we believe to be theirs.

As someone else said earlier, in 3.5 years, I haven't heard a single convincing argument for Brexit that doesn't boil down to fear of immigrants, most of the time.

Why does every economist of note think it will be disastrous?

10000maniacs

Bambi wrote: »

Even poor old Ed saw the iceberg, bit late in the day mind. You just raced straight into it and then stood on the bridge saluting as the good ship Labour went down while berating everyone else for having jumped the life boats.

I have the BBC news on now an they are going through some of the Northern towns that voted Tory for the first time. The stock opinion is "My dad voted Labour and I have always voted Labour but I voted Tory for the first time because I dislike Corbyn". Liar!. There is only one reason why these people voted Tory and its not Corbyn or austerity because the Tories did austerity. It's not Brexit because they don't know what it means. It's the taking back control of the borders and the Tory immigration stance that swung them. Pure and simple.

Water John

That New Labour could actually be described as Tory lite. And I'm not very far to the left.

Lefty Bicek

Shelga wrote: »

They might have had 83 seats, but that's all they ever would have had- rather than their ideology infecting the Conservative Party and leading to Brexit.

The DUP didn't need 83 seats to play their considerable part. So that's that.

UKIP ideology did not infect the Conservative Party. As I've already suggested elsewhere, by referring to Tony Benn in '91, British Euroscepticism is a long tradition, predating Bill Cash et al.

Leaving was part of the Labour Manifesto in '83.

A notable factor that actually, materially led to Brexit, was the People's Pledge. Step forward, amongst others, Jon Cruddas MP (Labour Party policy chief), and Keith Vaz MP (Labour, former Minister of State for Europe).

devnull

Water John wrote: »

That New Labour could actually be described as Tory lite. And I'm not very far to the left.

This is what I don't get about Momentum - they appear to love losing elections.

In the last 50 years, the only elections that Labour have won, have been under the leadership of Tony Blair and his New Labour philosophy. Some people may not like it, but number of party members doesn't win you elections, number of voters does and time and time again hard left Labour parties have failed to get enough. Saying that the leader that won all three of the elections they took part in is the problem and the countless other leaders that lost every time are victims is laughable.

For all this talk about Tory Lite being bad at the end of the day the likes of Momentum have been so focused on attacking moderates within their own party that it has allowed a fully fledged right wing Tory party to win a majority which will harm the poor and the vulnerable more than Blair ever did. I did not agree with everything that Blair did, but New Labour was vastly preferable to Thatcherism.

If this kind of thinking isn't eradicated from the Labour Party the Tories will be winning the next election easily as well. Momentum constantly pointing back to how good failed Labour parties of the past were, who never got enough public support to do anything and how much of a failure the one successful leader was in the last 50 years despite the fact he got elected, is a serious roadblock to ousting the Conservatives.

In order to change anything in the UK, the Labour party needs to win enough support from the public to get into government. A bunch of hard left people crowing to the already converted and screaming about highest number of party members ever is seriously deluded because all these things mean nothing if you get hammered at the ballot box because the public don't want it.

Momentum need to learn these lessons before it's too late and the country is completely destroyed by decades of Conservative rule.

Water John

Momentum is very ideologically driven. It cannot tolerate a wide spread of views. This spread is essential if you want to be a party that captures the votes of 40% of the electorate.
Will Lb go for someone like, Hilary Benn, who would beat Alexander Johnson?
Not likely at present. It will need a pretty radical shake up.

Lord Heseltine has come out and conceded defeat; stating that the UK will be "leaving Europe" and there is no need to fight on.

It took 3.5-years, but the People's Vote campaign has finally given up.

Thank goodness for that. As Prime Minister Johnson said yesterday, it's time both sides came together and "let the healing begin". This could have happened a long time ago, but Remainers just would not give up.

Lord Heseltine has admitted he and fellow Remain supporters have "lost" following Boris Johnson's general election victory and dismissed the prospect of "fighting on".

The former Conservative deputy prime minister had urged voters to back the Liberal Democrats, or independent candidates who had been expelled from the Tories by Mr Johnson, prior to Thursday's ballot.

Dyr

10000maniacs wrote: »

I have the BBC news on now an they are going through some of the Northern towns that voted Tory for the first time. The stock opinion is "My dad voted Labour and I have always voted Labour but I voted Tory for the first time because I dislike Corbyn". Liar!. There is only one reason why these people voted Tory and its not Corbyn or austerity because the Tories did austerity. It's not Brexit because they don't know what it means. It's the taking back control of the borders and the Tory immigration stance that swung them. Pure and simple.

You're finally starting to admit that you despise the people you rely on to access power. And you despise them because they won't indluge your extremism any more.

devnull

10000maniacs wrote: »

I have the BBC news on now an they are going through some of the Northern towns that voted Tory for the first time. The stock opinion is "My dad voted Labour and I have always voted Labour but I voted Tory for the first time because I dislike Corbyn". Liar!. There is only one reason why these people voted Tory and its not Corbyn or austerity because the Tories did austerity. It's not Brexit because they don't know what it means. It's the taking back control of the borders and the Tory immigration stance that swung them. Pure and simple.

Another person who believes what they are fed by the BBC and Tory led spin that has put out the false narrative that this election was about many Labour votes who decided to vote Tory for the first time.

The vote change as as follows
Tory +1%
Labour -8%
Lib Dem +4%
Brexit +2%
SNP +1 %

Tories took many seats from Labour, but that was not because of a big swing of votes from Labour to the Tories, it was because the Labour vote collapsed and the voters that deserted Labour were split, which meant the total number of votes required to win in Labour held constituencies went down.

Corbyn's popularity was by a country mile the biggest reason that voters decided to abandon Labour, followed by the parties Brexit stance. This backs up what I have heard from friends and former colleagues in the UK. Remainers drifted off to Lib Dems (4%) and the SNP (1%) whilst leavers drifted off to the Brexit Party (2%) and Tory party (1%) as the overall vote collapsed.

20silkcut

Dominic grieve gone.
Ian Duncan Smith,the man with the unusually disgusting eating habits gets re-elected. For me that about sums up this election.

I have no problem with the result and in some way sort of welcome it for the clarity it brings and I felt remainers deserved nothing out of it.
But some of the personalities who have been affirmed and exalted by this result really does stick in my craw.
Really the only hope now is that the EU give them a good stuffing in the trade negotiations.
Although the thoughts of Phil hogan leading such negotiations causes obstructions of the craw as well. Brexit has really elevated the mediocre.
Maybe time to dis - engage from politics a bit and follow something else.

MPFGLB

20silkcut wrote: »

Dominic grieve gone.
Ian Duncan Smith,the man with the unusually disgusting eating habits gets re-elected. For me that about sums up this election.

I have no problem with the result and in some way sort of welcome it for the clarity it brings and I felt remainers deserved nothing out of it.
But some of the personalities who have been affirmed and exalted by this result really does stick in my craw.
Really the only hope now is that the EU give them a good stuffing in the trade negotiations.
Although the thoughts of Phil hogan leading such negotiations causes obstructions of the craw as well. Brexit has really elevated the mediocre.
Maybe time to dis - engage from politics a bit and follow something else.

I too welcome to end to the Brexit circus and I will move on

But to say remainers deserve nothing is rubbish
The Tories and Brexit Party,UKIP & DUP together got 46% share of the vote

Therefore the remain parties received 54% of the vote
And believe it for all those voting for Brexit there were equally those voting for parties based on their remain message.

One cannot dismiss the true concerns of people because they were not first past the post.Nor knock their legitimate concerns because they dont live in the north of England.

Just like the posters on here who want to some how beatify Johnson for wining and do a hatchet job on the characters Corbyn and Swinson for losing
Where the truth is far more subtle

Yes the Labour party and momentum got it wrong and most Labour voters were never happy with Corbyn. His policies and approach were not of this time

..But I agree with John McDonell -
"McDonnell said there needed to be a debate about how “someone – who I think is one of the most principled, honest, sincere, committed, anti-racist politicians – [was] demonised by a smear campaign”. “I think we have a wider debate here about the role of social media and the media overall,” he said."

The media in UK has lot to answer for and to ignore that as a factor (not the only onebut a very large factor) is to not understand the power of perception and the strength of media power. Its an uphill battle of any politician fighting the Murdoch/Desmond press

Also many people (here in London I know) feel totally disenfranchised by politics now.But I guess some smart lark on here will say they dont count

I respect the election results but I dont think a true reflection of most of the country.But the media would have you believe they are

what is more I dont think they are right

Brexit is economically worse that staying in the EU (most economic appraisals say this)
Boris Johnson is not a credible individual as he has proven in his private life and writings and as relayed from senior politicians who know him
Dominic Cummings believes in anarchy and is the true power behind the throne
Johnson may start with good intentions but he will back big business when the chips are down
Hell he will back whatever is good for him at the end of the day

And that is my final word on the matter

ancapailldorcha

20silkcut wrote: »

Dominic grieve gone.
Ian Duncan Smith,the man with the unusually disgusting eating habits gets re-elected. For me that about sums up this election.

I have no problem with the result and in some way sort of welcome it for the clarity it brings and I felt remainers deserved nothing out of it.
But some of the personalities who have been affirmed and exalted by this result really does stick in my craw.
Really the only hope now is that the EU give them a good stuffing in the trade negotiations.
Although the thoughts of Phil hogan leading such negotiations causes obstructions of the craw as well. Brexit has really elevated the mediocre.
Maybe time to dis - engage from politics a bit and follow something else.

What really sticks in my craw with IDS winning reelection is that had the Lib Dems stood down and voted tactically, we'd have gotten a remainer Labour MP who the Lib Dems attempted to smear.

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What really sticks in my craw with IDS winning reelection is that had the Lib Dems stood down and voted tactically, we'd have gotten a remainer Labour MP who the Lib Dems attempted to smear.

Kensington is the saddest one of all to me, labour losing by 150 votes in the grenfell constituency. That seems very poignant to me. Gyimah ran a very aggressive campaign against labour there.

Raab also there to be taken out too. Labour could have helped there. Others as well.

But i dont think there's any point looking back and apportioning blame. The lib dems set out with an ambitious mindset and thought they could win big numbers of seats. They needed to attract tory moderate votes and attacking labour was deemed necessary to achieve that. There was never any realistic hope of a formal pact and cant see labour were seriously interested anyway.

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Kensington is the saddest one of all to me, labour losing by 150 votes in the grenfell constituency. That seems very poignant to me. Gyimah ran a very aggressive campaign against labour there.

Raab also there to be taken out too. Labour could have helped there. Others as well.

But i dont think there's any point looking back and apportioning blame. The lib dems set out with an ambitious mindset and thought they could win big numbers of seats. They needed to attract tory moderate votes and attacking labour was deemed necessary to achieve that. There was never any realistic hope of a formal pact and cant see labour were seriously interested anyway.

Not sure how I forgot Kensington.

I'd a Lib Dem organiser yelling at me for criticising their decisions and Swinson but ultimately, if you want to split the remain vote this the result. If the remain side had gotten their act together things might have been different and we'd have shed at least a few of the more disliked Tories like IDS.

Agent_47

Have to say that I do like the first past the post system, stops those entrenched politicians staying too long in office.
Nothing worse than some self entitled politician getting in on the ninth count. It's why I vote for one person and leave rest of the ballot sheet empty.

Water John

So you're happy that over half the seats in the HOC could have a dog standing in them for either Con or Lb and still get elected?

Many in the HOC for 40 years, Ken Clarke, Denis Skinner.

Agent_47

Fresh faces, fresh idea's