General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Lord Heseltine has come out and conceded defeat; stating that the UK will be "leaving Europe" and there is no need to fight on.

It took 3.5-years, but the People's Vote campaign has finally given up.

Thank goodness for that. As Prime Minister Johnson said yesterday, it's time both sides came together and "let the healing begin". This could have happened a long time ago, but Remainers just would not give up.

Healing? After a nasty and dishonest campaign? Prime Minster Johnson can go and have sex with himself.

Joe_ Public

Johnson great talking about healing but his initial response yesterday morning was to tell remainers to "put a sock in it." Always interesting to see what someones first instinct is.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

. As Prime Minister Johnson said yesterday, it's time both sides came together and "let the healing begin". This could have happened a long time ago, but Remainers just would not give up.

From the leader of a party that spent 1.3m on ads personally attacking Corbyn?

Seriously, you fall for this ****e?

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Johnson great talking about healing but his initial response yesterday morning was to tell remainers to "put a sock in it." Always interesting to see what someones first instinct is.

Maya Angelou once said that the first time someone shows you who they are, that's the time to believe them. Johnson is a populist and is playing to his base. That's it. There will be no healing of the rift in British society.

AllForIt

My first instinct about remainers is that I never liked them. I've never liked anyone full of sanctimony and self-righteousness, virtue-signalers and the like. Hard remainers if they were so virtuous would take the position that the ref should be respected even if you feel in your heart it's wrong. Some have and a lot more than I was expecting. I see on twitter there's a crowd out protesting over the result with placards about racism, as if racism just began 3 years go. In reality it's much better now in comparison to the days when Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death. Where were these people protesting back them and in the interim. All I see over the last few years is opportunistic personality bashing of those who they politically disagree with. It hasn't worked not least because it's just so obvious. On a personal level I'm extremely glad they lost for this reason.

Wanderer78

Agent_47 wrote: »

Fresh faces, fresh idea's

or same ould ****e

Shelga

AllForIt wrote: »

My first instinct about remainers is that I never liked them. I've never liked anyone full of sanctimony and self-righteousness, virtue-signalers and the like. Hard remainers if they were so virtuous would take the position that the ref should be respected even if you feel in your heart it's wrong. Some have and a lot more than I was expecting. I see on twitter there's a crowd out protesting over the result with placards about racism, as if racism just began 3 years go. In reality it's much better now in comparison to the days when Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death. Where were these people protesting back them and in the interim. All I see over the last few years is opportunistic personality bashing of those who they politically disagree with. It hasn't worked not least because it's just so obvious. On a personal level I'm extremely glad they lost for this reason.

What a load of rubbish. Being for Remain does not make one a virtue-signaller- which has become a meaningless term anyway.

This is an Irish message board. Brexit is a big threat to peace on our island. The average Brit could not care less about this. Yeah, people are angry at a stupid decision that they had no say in affecting the stability of our country.

Shelga

Shelga wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Being for Remain does not make one a virtue-signaller- which has become a meaningless term anyway.

This is an Irish message board. Brexit is a big threat to peace on our island. The average Brit could not care less about this. Yeah, people are angry at a stupid decision that they had no say in affecting the stability of our country.

If the term is meaningless, why is it a "rubbish" claim?

There is no threat to peace; the North has an opt to continue with EU alignment if they so wish. That's democratic, peaceful, and consistent with the Good Friday Accord.

It's not a stupid decision. It's a democratic result - and the will of the British people should be respected as such, just as they should respect any decision that our electorate arrives at.

beggars_bush

Won't be long until Boris is caught out with something
Or his past catches up with him on some issue

And I've a feeling that Brexit is going to cause a huge schism in UK society

Lefty Bicek

Shelga wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Being for Remain does not make one a virtue-signaller- which has become a meaningless term anyway.

We've already been shown the research a short few posts back, regarding the false narrative of this election being about Labour votes who decided to vote Tory for the first time.

That being so, the throwing around of 'Racism' placards when the vote hasn't gone your way IS virtue signalling though. And of the worst kind, ie the sanctimonious demonising of others.

This is an Irish message board. Brexit is a big threat to peace on our island. The average Brit could not care less about this. Yeah, people are angry at a stupid decision that they had no say in affecting the stability of our country.

People have agency. If extremists in NI or elsewhere do bad things that is on them and them alone.

Foaming with contempt because British people care more about their own situation than they do about ours, and act accordingly, is childish.

And don't bother with the economic case. If the economics of Brexit were compelling for the average Brit, (by the standards of the experts you averred to earlier), they would have even MORE reason to vote as they did, and what could be petulantly thrown at them then ?

beggars_bush

Deleted User wrote: »

If the term is meaningless, why is it a "rubbish" claim?

There is no threat to peace; the North has an opt to continue with EU alignment if they so wish. That's democratic, peaceful, and consistent with the Good Friday Accord.

It's not a stupid decision. It's a democratic result - and the will of the British people should be respected as such, just as they should respect any decision that our electorate arrives at.

Er, that is not what NI has got under the new WA

The White Wolf

AllForIt wrote: »

My first instinct about remainers is that I never liked them. I've never liked anyone full of sanctimony and self-righteousness, virtue-signalers and the like. Hard remainers if they were so virtuous would take the position that the ref should be respected even if you feel in your heart it's wrong. Some have and a lot more than I was expecting. I see on twitter there's a crowd out protesting over the result with placards about racism, as if racism just began 3 years go. In reality it's much better now in comparison to the days when Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death. Where were these people protesting back them and in the interim. All I see over the last few years is opportunistic personality bashing of those who they politically disagree with. It hasn't worked not least because it's just so obvious. On a personal level I'm extremely glad they lost for this reason.

Well this is it and describes the Labour Party in the UK to a T. I'm on the left myself and not a fan of Brexit, but I (like Corbyn) can face facts; half the country voted for it. I can respect that even if I think people might not know what's to come.

Shelga

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

We've already been shown the research a short few posts back, regarding the false narrative of this election being about Labour votes who decided to vote Tory for the first time.

That being so, the throwing around of 'Racism' placards when the vote hasn't gone your way IS virtue signalling though. And of the worst kind, ie the sanctimonious demonising of others.



People have agency. If extremists in NI or elsewhere do bad things that is on them and them alone.

Foaming with contempt because British people care more about their own situation than they do about ours, and act accordingly, is childish.

And don't bother with the economic case. If the economics of Brexit were compelling for the average Brit, (by the standards of the experts you averred to earlier), they would have even MORE reason to vote as they did, and what could be petulantly thrown at them then ?

Listen, the UK can do as it likes as long as it doesn't affect us. Yes, Brexit is happening, and as long as there isn't a hard border in Ireland, it makes no difference to my life whatsoever what they do.

I'm entitled to my opinion that England is a nasty, inward-looking place of extreme inequality.

You may think I sound angry, but I'm actually just delighted to be back living in Ireland.

LOL at you admitting there is no economic case for Brexit. None. No, it's about more than economics alright- it's about emotion. To hell with logic.

"People have agency"- give me strength. Don't throw petrol on the embers of the Troubles and expect a good outcome.

10000maniacs

Bambi wrote: »

You're finally starting to admit that you despise the people you rely on to access power. And you despise them because they won't indluge your extremism any more.

Me?, I live in Dublin, but if I was living in the UK I would probably vote Labour, definitely not Johnsons brand of Conservatism. Did you read my post? That's pretty obvious from what I posted.

Bannasidhe

Water John wrote: »

Momentum is very ideologically driven. It cannot tolerate a wide spread of views.

But the exact same can be said about the ERG.
It is an ideologically driven cabal who worked to frustrate and remove a party leader - and Prime Minister - in order to have their preferred candidate in control.
The difference is that Momentum is a grass roots, high membership group (40k) on the left and the ERG is a small group (guestimated at 70) who sit in Parliament itself.
Only one of these is funded from the public purse - and it ain't the grass roots one.

Momentum have been trying to influence LP policy, the ERG have been influencing government policy.

One is on the left.
The other on the right.

Where are the calls for the ERG to be removed from controlling the Tories?
Or should we ignore them because their preferred candidate won and hope he has enough power now to ignore them?

Limpy

Brexit will work. All the snowflakes who traded their Pounds listening to the doom merchants must feel really low now.

Easy money .

hotmail.com

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

The DUP didn't need 83 seats to play their considerable part. So that's that.

UKIP ideology did not infect the Conservative Party. As I've already suggested elsewhere, by referring to Tony Benn in '91, British Euroscepticism is a long tradition, predating Bill Cash et al.

Leaving was part of the Labour Manifesto in '83.

A notable factor that actually, materially led to Brexit, was the People's Pledge. Step forward, amongst others, Jon Cruddas MP (Labour Party policy chief), and Keith Vaz MP (Labour, former Minister of State for Europe).

I don't know how many times this has been said on here and yet people still think Brexit feelings only started in 2016.

It's true the phrase Brexit is new but the anti EU feeling runs long and strong in the UK.

Irish people who are already experts on America, now want to be experts on Britain.

J Mysterio

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But the exact same can be said about the ERG.
It is an ideologically driven cabal who worked to frustrate and remove a party leader - and Prime Minister - in order to have their preferred candidate in control.
The difference is that Momentum is a grass roots, high membership group (40k) on the left and the ERG is a small group (guestimated at 70) who sit in Parliament itself.
Only one of these is funded from the public purse - and it ain't the grass roots one.

Momentum have been trying to influence LP policy, the ERG have been influencing government policy.

One is on the left.
The other on the right.

Where are the calls for the ERG to be removed from controlling the Tories?
Or should we ignore them because their preferred candidate won and hope he has enough power now to ignore them?

The ERG are elected MPs standing on the Tory ticket. If they are to be removed, it is encumbent on:

a) the public to not vote for them, or vote for someone else.

b) The Tory party to enforce party discipline.

Neither of these things have happened, so one can only presume that:

a) ERG constituents are happy with their representatives

b) The May Government was too weak and pathetic to enforce discipline and the Johnson government sympathise with the ERG.

Either way, Momentum have roundly failed as has their candidate. The ERG have won.

sid waddell

AllForIt wrote: »

My first instinct about remainers is that I never liked them. I've never liked anyone full of sanctimony and self-righteousness, virtue-signalers and the like. Hard remainers if they were so virtuous would take the position that the ref should be respected even if you feel in your heart it's wrong. Some have and a lot more than I was expecting. I see on twitter there's a crowd out protesting over the result with placards about racism, as if racism just began 3 years go. In reality it's much better now in comparison to the days when Stephen Lawrence was stabbed to death. Where were these people protesting back them and in the interim. All I see over the last few years is opportunistic personality bashing of those who they politically disagree with. It hasn't worked not least because it's just so obvious. On a personal level I'm extremely glad they lost for this reason.

A lot of lazy, self-indulgent right-wing cliches there, a lot of irrational anger.

I find it interesting that you don't mention these, because that would sort of disturb your narrative.

Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48692863

Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

Brexit vote sees highest spike in religious and racial hate crimes ever recorded
Exclusive: Race and faith attacks reported across UK increase by highest rate on record since the referendum, Freedom of Information figures reveal
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/racist-hate-crimes-surge-to-record-high-after-brexit-vote-new-figures-reveal-a7829551.html

J Mysterio

Limpy wrote: »

Brexit will work. All the snowflakes who traded their Pounds listening to the doom merchants must feel really low now.

Easy money .

Did you invest in Sterling? At what point did you do this? When do you hope to see a return?

I wouldn't count your chickens before they hatch.

Professor Moriarty

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But the exact same can be said about the ERG.
It is an ideologically driven cabal who worked to frustrate and remove a party leader - and Prime Minister - in order to have their preferred candidate in control.
The difference is that Momentum is a grass roots, high membership group (40k) on the left and the ERG is a small group (guestimated at 70) who sit in Parliament itself.
Only one of these is funded from the public purse - and it ain't the grass roots one.

Momentum have been trying to influence LP policy, the ERG have been influencing government policy.

One is on the left.
The other on the right.

Where are the calls for the ERG to be removed from controlling the Tories?
Or should we ignore them because their preferred candidate won and hope he has enough power now to ignore them?

Who won the election? The ERG party. No ERG members lost their seat. So the public elected the ERG. Labour/Momentum/Corbyn don't matter now. They might as well stay in bed. The Tories, with the ERG running through their veins, have absolute power.

hotmail.com

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But the exact same can be said about the ERG.
It is an ideologically driven cabal who worked to frustrate and remove a party leader - and Prime Minister - in order to have their preferred candidate in control.
The difference is that Momentum is a grass roots, high membership group (40k) on the left and the ERG is a small group (guestimated at 70) who sit in Parliament itself.
Only one of these is funded from the public purse - and it ain't the grass roots one.

Momentum have been trying to influence LP policy, the ERG have been influencing government policy.

One is on the left.
The other on the right.

Where are the calls for the ERG to be removed from controlling the Tories?
Or should we ignore them because their preferred candidate won and hope he has enough power now to ignore them?

Since 1979, Labour has only won 3 out of the last 11 general elections.

Labour has to decide if it wants to be in government to make at least some left wing polices. Many voters see Momentum as too extreme.

J Mysterio

sid waddell wrote: »

A lot of lazy, self-indulgent right-wing cliches there, a lot of irrational anger.

I find it interesting that you don't mention these, because that would sort of disturb your narrative.

Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48692863

Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

Brexit vote sees highest spike in religious and racial hate crimes ever recorded
Exclusive: Race and faith attacks reported across UK increase by highest rate on record since the referendum, Freedom of Information figures reveal
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/racist-hate-crimes-surge-to-record-high-after-brexit-vote-new-figures-reveal-a7829551.html

Brexit has unleashed peoples inhibitions. They feel quite free to realise the nasty hate lying just below the surface. Brexit has undoubtedly legitimised anti-immigration feeling and, well, plain old racism.

As the PM says, foreignors should not feel they can treat the UK as though it was part of their own country. Filthy foreign scum, wouldnt want them to pick the fruit from our orchards, better for it to rot eh?

"If you don't like it, why don't you leave?" etc.

Strazdas

sid waddell wrote: »

A lot of lazy, self-indulgent right-wing cliches there, a lot of irrational anger.

I find it interesting that you don't mention these, because that would sort of disturb your narrative.

Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-48692863

Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

Brexit vote sees highest spike in religious and racial hate crimes ever recorded
Exclusive: Race and faith attacks reported across UK increase by highest rate on record since the referendum, Freedom of Information figures reveal
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/racist-hate-crimes-surge-to-record-high-after-brexit-vote-new-figures-reveal-a7829551.html

Anyone describing immigration in a public forum as a "problem" is fuelling racism, even if that isn't the intention. Ordinary, decent people will just ignore this stuff and not pay much attention to it but the bigots and xenophobes will absolutely lap it up and regard it as justification for their beliefs.

J Mysterio

I thought this was interesting... Ben Fogle wandering around a massive orchard of rotting apples.

I think his understanding was off though... he thought the apples were 'too big for supermarkets to make a profit on them', whereas the reality is more likely that there is no one to pick them as the slave labour EU pickers are gone, and the great British public can't be bothered.

Sad waste either way... emblematic of lost potential we see in Brexit.

https://twitter.com/benfogle/status/1199980207614152705

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

Anyone describing immigration in a public forum as a "problem" is fuelling racism, even if that isn't the intention. Ordinary, decent people will just ignore this stuff and not pay much attention to it but the bigots and xenophobes will absolutely lap it up and regard it as justification for their beliefs.

Immigration can be a problem.

The idea that nobody can question immigration because there are no negatives whatsoever, is an absurd proposition.

When managed, immigration can be a net positive.

When uncontrolled and limitless, immigration can be a net negative.

That's not racist. That's not xenophobic. That's the reality of the situation.

And whilst there are racists in every country, they shouldn't allow to dictate the political agenda by forcing the rest of us, normal folk, from intelligently discussing the matter and learning the best means to manage migration.

You cannot have limitless numbers of people coming to your country. It dilutes and destroys culture; it puts pressure on public services and infrastructure; and it can even pose a national security risk.

sid waddell

Strazdas wrote: »

Any describing immigration in a public forum as a "problem" is fuelling racism, even if that isn't the intention. Ordinary, decent people will just ignore this stuff and not pay much attention to it but the bigots and xenophobes absolutely will lap it up and regard it as justification for their beliefs.

I think you're giving a bit too much credit there to people who mention immigration as a "problem".

Another poster mentioning "multiculturalism" earlier.

Multiculturalism and ethnic diversity sure hasn't failed in the UK, it has contributed richly to the country in every way for decades.

Racism has certainly failed, though - a failed idea in the past, in the present and in the future, always.

sid waddell

J Mysterio wrote: »

Brexit has unleashed peoples inhibitions. They feel quite free to realise the nasty hate lying just below the surface. Brexit has undoubtedly legitimised anti-immigration feeling and, well, plain old racism.

As the PM says, foreignors should not feel they can treat the UK as though it was part of their own country. Filthy foreign scum, wouldnt want them to pick the fruit from our orchards, better for it to rot eh?

"If you don't like it, why don't you leave?" etc.

Personally I think white British people are just as good as non-white British people and people from other countries living in Britain.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Immigration can be a problem.

The idea that nobody can question immigration because there are no negatives whatsoever, is an absurd proposition.

When managed, immigration can be a net positive.

When uncontrolled and limitless, immigration can be a net negative.

That's not racist. That's not xenophobic. That's the reality of the situation.

And whilst there are racists in every country, they shouldn't allow to dictate the political agenda by forcing the rest of us, normal folk, from intelligently discussing the matter and learning the best means to manage migration.

You cannot have limitless numbers of people coming to your country. It dilutes and destroys culture; it puts pressure on public services and infrastructure; and it can even pose a national security risk.

Britain doesn't have uncontrolled, limitless migration. It never has had.

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Immigration can be a problem.

The idea that nobody can question immigration because there are no negatives whatsoever, is an absurd proposition.

When managed, immigration can be a net positive.

When uncontrolled and limitless, immigration can be a net negative.

That's not racist. That's not xenophobic. That's the reality of the situation.

And whilst there are racists in every country, they shouldn't allow to dictate the political agenda by forcing the rest of us, normal folk, from intelligently discussing the matter and learning the best means to manage migration.

You cannot have limitless numbers of people coming to your country. It dilutes and destroys culture; it puts pressure on public services and infrastructure; and it can even pose a national security risk.

I'm afraid I cant class you as 'normal folk'. I've had the questionable 'pleasure' of reading your posts for the last few months which are repeatedly and emphatically anti-EU and pro Brexit.

'Normal folk' would be people who understand where their bread is buttered and appreciate that. If there were more folk like you, Ireland would also be on the path to destruction, and we would see the nasty atmosphere in this country that has so damaged the UK.

Thankfully, actual 'normal folk' here recognise that the EU has been a boon to this country and has helped drag us into the 21st century, providing a quality of life our grandparents could not have envisaged. My father and many of his generation had to leave to get ahead. 4 of my 4 siblings are abroad, though there are now opportunites for them to return. The young generation will not have to leave to survive. Ireland continues to do well - thank god - and normal folk recognise that our continued engagement with the EU is vital for the continuance of our prosperity.

Immigration is part of this, and as a country who has had millions leave to go around the world to better themselves, we should be accepting of that. We should also recognise that immigration to Ireland improves the country and strengthens it, much as our ancestors improved and helped build the countries they went to.