General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

rossie1977

rossie1977 wrote: »

What are you talking about. Johnson has been peddling europhobia since the 1980s. It was him that started the whole EU wants to ban prawn cocktail crisps nonsense. He didn't just hop aboard the train, he has been the one driving it all along. You don't have to read a communist manifesto to know that or where he stands politically, it's been plain obvious for decades despite the facade he puts on in public.

You make it our like Johnson is now King or something and graciously allow certain things to happen.

Here is my prediction. In 3 years once the electorate realise he is full of hot air and the goofy loveable rouge act has worn thin you are going to have a powder keg of emotion unleashed in the UK.

That's a bit dramatic!

You mention that Johnson has been "peddling Europhobia" for decades, yet fail to mention that the political and Establishment class have been "practicing Europhilia" over the past 4 decades -- and the public had their say, twice; once in 2016 and second, just a few short days ago.

Here is my prediction. Brexit will get done, Labour and Conservatives will move back to, and compete for, the centre-ground of British politics, and things will go just fine. Perhaps a few rocks in the road, but that's always going to be the case - whether it was Corbyn or Johnson in power.

quokula

"People say, 'they have got to live somewhere' - that's right, so my plan would be, and again this is just my own personal opinion, is that these people who have to live somewhere, let's have them in a tent, in the middle of a field.

"Six o'clock every morning, let's have them up, let's have them in the field, picking potatoes or any other seasonal vegetables, back in the tent, cold shower, lights out, six o'clock, same again the next day. That would be my solution."

Mr Anderson was previously a Labour supporter, but said he was driven out of the party by Momentum activists.

That is a quote about council tenants, from a man who is a newly elected Conservative MP now. So is a woman who said disabled people should be paid less because they don't understand money. So is a man who falsely claimed to be a nurse throughout his local campaigning to try and play up his NHS credentials, something which only came to light the day after the vote.

Boris chose a home secretary who supported the death penalty, has a history of taking money from tobacco firms and pushing pro-tobacco policy in parliament, and who was previously sacked for having secret meetings with the Israeli government while purporting to be there on a private holiday, and then pushing for UK foreign aid to get sent to the Israeli army after those meetings.

He chose a foreign secretary who has written a book that called for the privatisation of NHS services and for charging patients to use them, and who has dismissed people who depend on food banks are just having cashflow problems.

He personally said in the last week that EU residents who could have been paying taxes in the UK for decades like me or been helping to run the NHS like my partner, should not be able to treat the UK like home. Along with the many, many other well documented racist, homophobic, classist and dishonest things he's come out with over the years.

He purged many Tory MPs from the less extreme side of the party, including the father of the house and the most recent chancellor before his leadership. He was denounced by previous Tory prime minister John Major who called for people to vote against the party just days before the election.

And people are saying his could potentially be a sensible centre-right government while momentum, who promoted a manifesto that would have brought UK government spending up to about average for Europe, are hard left extremists. I despair.

Joe_ Public

quokula wrote: »

That is a quote about council tenants, from a man who is a newly elected Conservative MP now.

That guy Lee Anderson, the newly elected honourable member for Ashfield actually quit the labour party before they could chuck him out. He is currently under investigation for antisemitism which seems to have ceased to be a problem for him once he switched colours. A charming individual it must be stated.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Or perhaps Trump and Johnson knew that this was the politics that people were crying out for, and the type of policies that they had been asking for, and both Trump/Johnson mirrored existing public opinion?

The way you put it, it's as if Trump and Johnson invented topics for the electorate to talk about. It's the other way around. The public were being ignored on many of these issues, and finally a politician comes along and opts to voice those concerns.

So not leaders, simply populists willing to go with whatever the public want regardless of the outcomes?

People are crying out for healthcare in the US, gun control, massive spend on the NHS, more housing, lower taxes, better minimum wage.

But seemingly these great politicians are not overly worried about these issues.

hometruths

quokula wrote: »

There is and they did. Unfortunately with the extremely warped media landscape in the UK, combined with the Tories' endless spending on heavily targeted misleading campaign ads online with impunity. When they went low, Labour went high. Independent fact checkers found 88% of Tory's ads were lies and none of Labour's were. But lies are what win elections now.

I guess you missed my post pointing out that a few hours before polls closed your independent experts edited their article with an update admitting they had used flawed data?

What do you know? There were some misleading Labour ads running on those dates after all. Their research was bogus, like I said.

Sonny678

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

by any chance would Sonny be one of those negative, doom 'n gloom merchants for whom the next recession cant come quickly enough?

just a guess.:rolleyes:

Im just stating a fact. Its a fact to say economies go up and down. To say a recession is coming in the coming years is just stating the obvious. If I said the economy is going to grow and grow and there will never be another recession , I would be lying through my teeth. But I suspose lying through your teeth is the new politics. You have got Trump in the white house who is a pathological liar. And you havw got Johnston who is an even worse pathological liar , he was sacked ftom two jobs for lying. And was up in the courts for lying to the Queen. And British media have being lying to British public for 50 years, and the British mefia and politicans told 50 years of lies on the EU.

I deal in facts. And to say economies go up and down is a fact of life. To say recession is going to occur in the coming years is obvious. Thats nothingto do with been a doom.merchant , it just dealing with the reality of the situation

Britian has had 8 recessions since 1945
List of British Recessions
1 1949 Recession
2 1953 Recesion
3 1956 recession
4 1961 recession
5 Mid 70s recesion 1973 1974 1975 recession
6 Early 80s recession 1980 1981
7 Early 90s recession 1990 1991
8 Great Recesion 2008 2009

Britian dominant sector has been the service sector ( the British servive industry accounts for 80% of GDP) has in the last few months gone into contraction. US service sector has contracted for the first time in 3 years. Germany sector has contracted for the first time in 6 years recently also. While in the Uk Exports are falling. In the Uk there has been sharp drop in construction and fall in factory output. The British economy shrank in June for the first time in 7 years. Manufactuers in August had their worst month in 6 years

These are all tell tale shines, the Uk economy is disimproving and thats a thrend that will continue. If the British economy was to shrink again in the coming months , it could be in recession early next year. I think most experts are predicting autumm 2020 as most likely.
The last 8 recessions led on average to 2500 pounds loss per person and increased unemployment by 1 million in the Uk. And government dont have the room.to manoerve as they had before the last recession in 2008. With interest rates at historical high rates , QE wouldnt work this time. So government will need a different plan. This potentially worsen the damage of the recession.

US Recessions ( This is important to Ireland if US goes into recession it eill effect the Irish economy)
1 1945 Recession
2 1949 Recession
3 1953 Recesion
4 1958 Recesion
5 1960 61 Recession
6 1969 1970 Recession
7 1974 1975 Recession
7 Early 1980s Recession 1980 81
8 Early 1990s Recesion
9 Early 00s Recession
10 Great Recession 2008 2009

In Germany the fear is Germany could enter recesion in thr next quarter. The German economy has been stagnate since last summer. German manufacturing has slumped. Germany has had 10 consecutive years of growth. In Ireland the head of NMTA said recently of a recession happening to Ireland as 100%.

Overall recessions are part of the normal economic stye eg Recession - Expansion - Slowdown - Recesion - Expansion - Slowdown - Recession. This will always happen. The big issue is debt in Ireland , Uk and USA.The debt Ireland took on in the last crisie is an issue. The interest is three time higher then it was in 2003 to 2008. Theres also debt crisis in Uk. 8 million people in Uk are in debt. And this household debt will more then likely cause next crisis. The Uk banks are giving easy credit. 1.5 trillion debt owed. Debt in US held by public ids15 trillion. and sits at 106 % of gdp. The US federal debt in 2008 was
253 billion. It is 86% higher now.

Anerican and the Uk are drowning in debt. Real US debt could be 2000% of economy. Ireland debt is 200 billiion. The countries whuch have the most debt per GDP ratio in the world are Irelands debt is 9th most in the world. Uk is second most debt in the world and the US has 1st most debt per GDP ratio in the world

These are all facts. Not opinions not viewpoints just facts. Johnston and whoever is in the white house and whoever is Taoiseach will have to deal with economy in serious decline in the coming year. And if this debt crisis becomes an issue we will need real smart and strong leaders in Europe and the US. At the moment the US and Uk have hit rock bottom in terms of leaders with Trump and Johnston , the two most morally bankrupt individuals to ever hold high office in both countries and thats saying something.
and in Ireland and rest of Europe the leos and the Macrons are pretty useless.

droidus

Sonny678 wrote: »

These are all facts. Not opinions not viewpoints just facts. Johnston and whoever is in the white house and whoever is Taoiseach will have to deal with economy in serious decline in the coming year. And if this debt crisis becomes an issue we will need real smart and strong leaders in Europe and the US. At the moment the US and Uk have hit rock bottom in terms of leaders with Trump and Johnston , the two most morally bankrupt individuals to ever hold high office in both countries and thats saying something.
and in Ireland and rest of Europe the leos and the Macrons are pretty useless.

The most worrying this is that the historical reaction to recession most favoured by populist leaders is to revert to fascism and totalitarianism, and in Trump and mini-Trumps case they are already halfway there.

Letwin_Larry

Sonny678 wrote: »

Im just stating a fact. Its a fact to say economies go up and down. To say a recession is coming in the coming years is just stating the obvious. If I said the economy is going to grow and grow and there will never be another recession , I would be lying through my teeth. But I suspose lying through your teeth is the new politics. You have got Trump in the white house who is a pathological liar. And you havw got Johnston who is an even worse pathological liar , he was sacked ftom two jobs for lying. And was up in the courts for lying to the Queen. And British media have being lying to British public for 50 years, and the British mefia and politicans told 50 years of lies on the EU.

I deal in facts. And to say economies go up and down is a fact of life. To say recession is going to occur in the coming years is obvious. Thats nothingto do with been a doom.merchant , it just dealing with the reality of the situation

Britian has had 8 recessions since 1945
List of British Recessions
1 1949 Recession
2 1953 Recesion
3 1956 recession
4 1961 recession
5 Mid 70s recesion 1973 1974 1975 recession
6 Early 80s recession 1980 1981
7 Early 90s recession 1990 1991
8 Great Recesion 2008 2009

Britian dominant sector has been the service sector ( the British servive industry accounts for 80% of GDP) has in the last few months gone into contraction. US service sector has contracted for the first time in 3 years. Germany sector has contracted for the first time in 6 years recently also. While in the Uk Exports are falling. In the Uk there has been sharp drop in construction and fall in factory output. The British economy shrank in June for the first time in 7 years. Manufactuers in August had their worst month in 6 years

These are all tell tale shines, the Uk economy is disimproving and thats a thrend that will continue. If the British economy was to shrink again in the coming months , it could be in recession early next year. I think most experts are predicting autumm 2020 as most likely.
The last 8 recessions led on average to 2500 pounds loss per person and increased unemployment by 1 million in the Uk. And government dont have the room.to manoerve as they had before the last recession in 2008. With interest rates at historical high rates , QE wouldnt work this time. So government will need a different plan. This potentially worsen the damage of the recession.

US Recessions ( This is important to Ireland if US goes into recession it eill effect the Irish economy)
1 1945 Recession
2 1949 Recession
3 1953 Recesion
4 1958 Recesion
5 1960 61 Recession
6 1969 1970 Recession
7 1974 1975 Recession
7 Early 1980s Recession 1980 81
8 Early 1990s Recesion
9 Early 00s Recession
10 Great Recession 2008 2009

In Germany the fear is Germany could enter recesion in thr next quarter. The German economy has been stagnate since last summer. German manufacturing has slumped. Germany has had 10 consecutive years of growth. In Ireland the head of NMTA said recently of a recession happening to Ireland as 100%.

Overall recessions are part of the normal economic stye eg Recession - Expansion - Slowdown - Recesion - Expansion - Slowdown - Recession. This will always happen. The big issue is debt in Ireland , Uk and USA.The debt Ireland took on in the last crisie is an issue. The interest is three time higher then it was in 2003 to 2008. Theres also debt crisis in Uk. 8 million people in Uk are in debt. And this household debt will more then likely cause next crisis. The Uk banks are giving easy credit. 1.5 trillion debt owed. Debt in US held by public ids15 trillion. and sits at 106 % of gdp. The US federal debt in 2008 was
253 billion. It is 86% higher now.

Anerican and the Uk are drowning in debt. Real US debt could be 2000% of economy. Ireland debt is 200 billiion. The countries whuch have the most debt per GDP ratio in the world are Irelands debt is 9th most in the world. Uk is second most debt in the world and the US has 1st most debt per GDP ratio in the world

These are all facts. Not opinions not viewpoints just facts. Johnston and whoever is in the white house and whoever is Taoiseach will have to deal with economy in serious decline in the coming year. And if this debt crisis becomes an issue we will need real smart and strong leaders in Europe and the US. At the moment the US and Uk have hit rock bottom in terms of leaders with Trump and Johnston , the two most morally bankrupt individuals to ever hold high office in both countries and thats saying something.
and in Ireland and rest of Europe the leos and the Macrons are pretty useless.

we all (well most of us) know that economies are cyclical. there's nothing new in that. it's a bit like we get night after day, followed by ...you guessed it.
economies go up. economies go down, so what.

in fact 99% of modern economic policy is all about trying to iron out these big peaks and troughs so we are (hopefully) left with steady economic growth.
it's an inexact science and still evolving. not a proper science imho, but heck we do our best.

but be honest, you love recessions don't you?

Sonny678

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

we all (well most of us) know that economies are cyclical. there's nothing new in that. it's a bit like we get night after day, followed by ...you guessed it.
economies go up. economies go down, so what.

in fact 99% of modern economic policy is all about trying to iron out these big peaks and troughs so we are (hopefully) left with steady economic growth.
it's an inexact science and still evolving. not a proper science imho, but heck we do our best.

but be honest, you love recessions don't you?

But its the governments reaction is the point here. What is Tories reaction when recession happens. We have two examples in the past to refer to. Firstly recently mass austerity under Cameron, which an had underlying vicousness and nastiness , that was uncalled for. And Thatcher who attempted the greatest example of self harm on a country in western Europe in recent times when in the 80s she tried to destroy communities in norrthern England particularly places like Liverpool , Wales , Scotland. The Tories record in government in times of recession is extreme negative reactions.

Johnston has got votes in North of England and Wales. Britian goes into recession , is Johnston going to invest heavily in services in the north and in the North in general in a time of recession. The people who voted for him after Brexit is passed into law are expecting him to deliver improvements in the northern living standards. Will Johnston do that in a time of recesion. No it will cuts again. Thats my point. The idea that the north of England is going to stay Tory is not plausible.

Regards I love Recessions. What do you know what I love?. I love my family and my loved ones. And I definatley have no time for anyone suffering. And recession means ordinary people suffering. You dont know me. I can ensure I dont love Recessions.

Im not like a Tory , I have a heart. The Tories dont just care , they want to hurt people, they want ordinary people to suffer. A shower of aristocratics wierdos , who 10 to 15 years ago Duncan Smith , Mogg and Johnston were seen as national jokes in the Uk. They are jokes. It just with Brexit people started taking these clowns and charlatans serious. Because the Uk is having a mental breakdown and lost all sense of reason or cop on.

And these aristocratic charlatan wierdos who were once seen as a running joke or now running the country, running the country in to the ground. Its the Tories who who have no compassion and empathy and want and need peoole to suffer. Maybe its when they are sent to these posh schools. Tory boy is sent to a creepy mediveal looking place for their teenage years and after Mammy and Daddy spending fortune , at age of 20 Tory boy has grown into strange narcistic pompous sadistic lacking empthy or compassion Tory monster who is created to rule the Uk and inflict as much pain on ordinary people as they can muster.

Britian is finished. The Tories tried to destroy working class in the 80s , they tried to destroy the underclass in this decade and will finish the job when they destroy the business and middle classes in the 2020s with English nationalism on steriods ie Brexit. When the Toriee are finished Scotland and Northern Ireland will be gone. And Britian will be a shell of a country the countries decline will be permanent. UK RIP.

droidus

Sonny678 wrote: »

Britian is finished. The Tories tried to destroy working class in the 80s , they tried to destroy the underclass in this decade and will finish the job when they destroy the business and middle classes in the 2020s with English nationalism on steriods ie Brexit. When the Toriee are finished Scotland and Northern Ireland will be gone. And Britian will be a shell of a country the countries decline will be permanent. UK RIP.

Yup.

Look at what they did with austerity. 120,000 excess deaths and it was completely unnecessary. What's going to happen when the real downturn hits? And then there's climate - thats just going to exacerbate everything.

Ireland needs to stop giving passports away like sweets. There's going to be a reversal of the traditional UK migration routes in the years to come.

ancapailldorcha

Off topic and below standard posts deleted.

johnnyskeleton

quokula wrote: »

And people are saying his could potentially be a sensible centre-right government while momentum, who promoted a manifesto that would have brought UK government spending up to about average for Europe, are hard left extremists. I despair.

Is that not a false dichotomy? It is possible that the Tories are hard right, Labour are not hard left and the people of the UK still preferred the former over the latter.

To my mind, Labour scuffed a kick into an open goal. They did so by refusing to take a position on Brexit and trying to convince people that they were taking a principled stand. They told the London people this meant they were pro remain, and the people in the North they were pro leave. Only the remainers believed them, but in reality they were dishonest about Brexit to both.

suicide_circus

the stupid working class were tricked into voting brexit. then the stupid working class were tricked into voting boris. they perpetually let the lefitst intelligentsia down.

the essential difference is that the working class are conservative in so far they are not very socially liberal and more importantly they have a genuine connection to the places and communities they live. they are (dirty word!) patriotic.

On the other side we have the Internationalist citizens of the world who are largely contemptuous of the working class who dont know whats good for them. In Corbyn they would have elected a PM who dislikes Britain and is ashamed of its past.

Brexit and a tory government may well make northern England (former) Labour heartland worse off for a time but in the end this came down to values rather than the balance sheet; the value of pride in the nation state and the value of allowing democracy to take its course.

US2

"Old" "stupid" "tricked" "racist" . The good thing to come out of this is that I have faith in humanity again, the world ain't gone PC mad, just Twitter.

Bit cynical

Bit cynical wrote: »

I wonder will there be protests in front of Westminster over the results like there was after the referendum result.

robinph wrote: »

Can't see why there would be... but if they try to claim that this result means that the country wants a no deal brexit they might.

Looks like there were protests over the outcome of the election:

LuckyLloyd

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

it's going to be facinating what shape and colour this new Tory Govt. takes on.
my guess is Boris will show his more Liberal Centrist side.
given his cosy majority of 80 he can choose to sideline the ERG, and the DUP are yesterday's news.

expect a lot more investment in Northern areas where the Tories have broken new ground.

He’ll be needing quite the cabinet reshuffle so.

LuckyLloyd

Brexit has been successfully sold as the salve to all the ills Labour fought the election on. “Brexit” is a lovely big church containing dog whistling to appeal to the lowest common denominators while also allowing economically illiterate people spout off half baked theories on “global Britain” and some such. It’s everything to everybody and definitely a massive opportunity to the super wealthy primed to take advantage of significant economic shifts.

Fundamentally a huge body of opinion that I subscribe to believe “Brexit” will eventually collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Real compromises have been avoided by “Brexit” thus far apart from on Northern Ireland, and you can check out the twitter of Jamie Bryson if you want to see how someone who enthusiastically cheered on “Brexit” with a little Union Jack feels when the actualities of Brexit let them down. And the DUP / loyalists in NI are only the first interest group that will be dismayed to discover what “Brexit” turning into Brexit means for them.

Cummings is a clever political operator when it comes to winning “Brexit” votes, his record speaks to that. But this “Brexit” messaging has not moved the needle in the withdrawal agreement negotiations, and that was the easy bit. Now we move onto trade. The UK need service access, and they’ll get it by sacrificing movement, manufacturing, the city and the fish. The can has been successfully kicked down the road, but finally “Brexit” needs to become Brexit for everyone.

If this huge body of opinion I subscribe to is wrong and Brexit does indeed salve the ills of an ailing England (while keeping Scotland aboard) then fair enough, glory to Boris and the Conservatives. But if it’s right, the anger that is coming is going to upend English political discourse. The people are screaming for change, and “Brexit” has been successfully prescribed as giving them the change they want. It better, or the people - after electing a huge majority Tory government - will know who to blame.

devnull

Jeremy Corbyn has spoken
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/we-won-the-argument-but-i-regret-we-didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

Apparently Labour 'won the argument' and 'rewritten the terms of the debate' and the evil media are to blame.

Also there's a feeling of some of Corbyn's inner circle today are now peddling the theory that in 2017 they did very well and in 2019 they did poorly with the same policies. What's different they ask? Brexit is the answer. Therefore 2019 is a freak result and instead we should judge Corbyn by 2017 and not 2019.

This is despite even the most prominent leavers in the Labour party who lost their seat, like Caroline Flint, have admitted that on almost every doorstep that they have campaigned, Corbyn has been toxic and people have even said that they will only back her if she can guarantee that Corbyn will not be PM.

Corbyn it looks is trying to sell a false narrative here that everything was about Brexit and nothing was about him in order to craft a new leader in his image. Unless he is stopped from doing so, The Tories will destroy the lives of the poorest and most vulnerable in UK society and decimate public services for the next decade at least.

beggars_bush

US2 wrote: »

"Old" "stupid" "tricked" "racist" . The good thing to come out of this is that I have faith in humanity again, the world ain't gone PC mad, just Twitter.

Come back in a few years and let's judge the record of the Tories

Because their record over the last 9 years hasn't been great for the UK.
Maybe rich people over there, but that is it

suicide_circus

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Brexit has been successfully sold as the salve to all the ills Labour fought the election on. “Brexit” is a lovely big church containing dog whistling to appeal to the lowest common denominators while also allowing economically illiterate people spout off half baked theories on “global Britain”

people using this language were a great asset to the tories in this election.

LuckyLloyd

suicide_circus wrote: »

people using this language were a great asset to the tories in this election.

Great! Congratulations! I’ve been hearing the same for the last half decade. Thankfully over the coming half decade at least some of the chickens need to come home to roost.

Yaxley Lennon and the other voices who hate brown people lined up behind Johnson for this election. Advocates for a Singapore style system like Daniel Hannon are firmly behind him. As are the Trump apologists and on and on and on. Maybe Cummings isn’t a racist really and “Brexit” isn’t about racism and deepening inequality for the benefit of the elite. But it’s sure odd that all the advocates of that stuff are firmly in the “Brexit” camp!

devnull

Seems to be a bit of Momentum about Rebecca Long-Bailey as the New Labour leader, apparently very much the choice of the hard left and McDonnell and Corbyn have notably been pushing her quite a lot in the last few months, almost like she is being groomed for the role in order to continue the hard left project.

Be interesting to see what kind of profile she has over the comings weeks and months and if they use the reflection period to put some building blocks in place to try and create that situation. There's talk that Richard Burgon would be her deputy as well which is cut from the same cloth which will surely result in the poor and vulnerable being savaged for the next decade as the opposition will continue to be absent without leave.

Both of the above are huge supporters of Corbynism and have been parroting the Corbyn line that the 2019 election they were unlucky in and that Corbyn should be judged on 2017, because their election defeat on Thursday had everything to do with Brexit and nothing to do with Corbyn and people are reading too much into it when it is an outlier. These people are tone death and will just enable years upon years of Tory rule.

At the end of the day there needs to be someone who is less extreme than Jeremy Corbyn, it cannot be Jeremy Corbyn without a beard if the Labour party are to go forward and provide a credible opposition that enough people will actually vote for so they can win a general election.

Professor Moriarty

devnull wrote: »

Seems to be a bit of Momentum about Rebecca Long-Bailey as the New Labour leader, apparently very much the choice of the hard left and McDonnell and Corbyn have notably been pushing her quite a lot in the last few months, almost like she is being groomed for the role in order to continue the hard left project.

Be interesting to see what kind of profile she has over the comings weeks and months and if they use the reflection period to put some building blocks in place to try and create that situation. There's talk that Richard Burgon would be her deputy as well which is cut from the same cloth which will surely result in the poor and vulnerable being savaged for the next decade as the opposition will continue to be absent without leave.

Both of the above are huge supporters of Corbynism and have been parroting the Corbyn line that the 2019 election they were unlucky in and that Corbyn should be judged on 2017, because their election defeat on Thursday had everything to do with Brexit and nothing to do with Corbyn and people are reading too much into it when it is an outlier. These people are tone death and will just enable years upon years of Tory rule.

At the end of the day there needs to be someone who is less extreme than Jeremy Corbyn, it cannot be Jeremy Corbyn without a beard if the Labour party are to go forward and provide a credible opposition that enough people will actually vote for so they can win a general election.

I think Momentum are the bone marrow of Labour now. They won't be letting go of their grip anytime soon. But, it doesn't matter. Labour has five long years to tear itself apart and become even more ineffective, while the Tories consolidate their grip on the minds of should-be Labour voters.

Cummings will spin populist slogans blaming everyone but the Tory party while Johnson and his hard right cabinet implement authoritarian capitalism. In five years time, Britain will be a very different place than it has been for decades and it won't be pretty.

Dyr

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think Momentum are the bone marrow of Labour now. They won't be letting go of their grip anytime soon. But, it doesn't matter. Labour has five long years to tear itself apart and become even more ineffective, while the Tories consolidate their grip on the minds of should-be Labour voters.

Cummings will spin populist slogans blaming everyone but the Tory party while Johnson and his hard right cabinet implement authoritarian capitalism. In five years time, Britain will be a very different place than it has been for decades and it won't be pretty.

You think that Cummings somehow masterminded this election but he just read the mood of the voters correctly, they wanted the referendum result acted on.

Labour and the Lib Dems deluded themselves to suit their own dogma and granted a brand new PM an election when they were at odds with public opinion and he was still in the honeymoon period.

Now you have a list of gawd-help-us no hoper candidates to replace Corbyn because Labour decided a few years back that the most important factor in selecting MPs was their genitalia.

Get woke - go broke in full effect.

Professor Moriarty

Bambi wrote: »

You think that Cummings somehow masterminded this election but he just read the mood of the voters correctly, they wanted the referendum result acted on.

Labour and the Lib Dems deluded themselves to suit their own dogma and granted a brand new PM an election when they were at odds with public opinion and he was still in the honeymoon period.

Now you have a list of gawd-help-us no hoper candidates to replace Corbyn because Labour decided a few years back that the most important factor in selecting MPs was their genitalia.

Get woke - go broke in full effect.

Is reading the mood of the electorate not the same as masterminding an election? Anyway, unless they put in a Keir Starmer and fundamentally revise their policies and tactics, they are out of power for decades.

LuckyLloyd

Who Labour select as a leader right now makes no difference to what is coming given the scale of the Tory majority, the MPs departed over the last six months and the composition of its cabinet. The Conservatives now get to fully implement their Brexit and associated legislative agenda. It seems pretty binary to me: if they improve the economy and livelihoods of the majority of people in England they will win again in five years time. If they do not they will not. There will be no complications to hide behind next time out, and if the Tory press was able to mock Ed Milliband for eating a sandwich they’ll find ways to chip away at the credibility of whoever emerges as leader.

The next few years are about what the Conservatives actually *deliver*. No more excuses to hide behind.

Dyr

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Is reading the mood of the electorate not the same as masterminding an election? Anyway, unless they put in a Keir Starmer and fundamentally revise their policies and tactics, they are out of power for decades.

I don't think Starmer is a great performer but he would be the best option, so he won't get it.

ancapailldorcha

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Who Labour select as a leader right now makes no difference to what is coming given the scale of the Tory majority, the MPs departed over the last six months and the composition of its cabinet.

I disagree.

The first thing they need to do is to amputate Momentum and select a new leader who can reform the party so that they can regain their lost northern seats. Momentum is electoral cancer and as such will take many, many years of internecine conflict to expunge. Laura Parker summed it up nicely when her defence amounted to looking at how the margin of defeat was last time.

Various campaigners have said that Corbyn came up time and time again on the door steps. The new leader will have to be free of the electoral taints of Remain and Corbynism. They'll also have to properly purge the party of anti-Semites ASAP. Of course, there's no chance of this being done or maybe even started by 2024 so we can expect another Johnson landslide again before Labour starts to resemble a viable party.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

people using this language were a great asset to the tories in this election.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Great! Congratulations! I’ve been hearing the same for the last half decade. Thankfully over the coming half decade at least some of the chickens need to come home to roost.

Telling voters that they're being tricked by dog whistling to appeal to the lowest common denominators while being lured by economically illiterate people is a very good way to lose their votes. Well, they did lose their votes.

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree.

The first thing they need to do is to amputate Momentum and select a new leader who can reform the party so that they can regain their lost northern seats. Momentum is electoral cancer and as such will take many, many years of internecine conflict to expunge. Laura Parker summed it up nicely when her defence amounted to looking at how the margin of defeat was last time.

Various campaigners have said that Corbyn came up time and time again on the door steps. The new leader will have to be free of the electoral taints of Remain and Corbynism. They'll also have to properly purge the party of anti-Semites ASAP. Of course, there's no chance of this being done or maybe even started by 2024 so we can expect another Johnson landslide again before Labour starts to resemble a viable party.

Fair points. The other question is what is going to happen about racism in the governing party? Will there be any reckoning at all? At least 3 tory candidates were facing allegations of antisemitism during the campaign, one of whom was elected. How long does the situation pertain where one party is judged by different standards to the other? Personally I'm not sure of the answers to any of those questions but it is still fair to say labour has to get its own house in order and not measure its moral compass against the other side.