General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Rjd2

rossie1977 wrote: »

More people voted Labour in 17 than they did under Brown in 2010 or Milliband in 2015.

The media and Tories have managed to create a narrative that Corbyn was a racist, anti-semite, Marxist/communist who was second coming of Stalin, millions bought it.

Regardless who the next leader of Labour is smear campaign will begin immediately.

Lets be honest if Michael D Higgins was elected leader of Labour UK he would be called a marxist/communist who was friends with Castro and wants to turn UK into socialist hell-hole.

Corbyn has lost 2 elections and the recent a landslide. I understand a lot of people think the man is God and everyone is out to get him but he must take some blame for these losses.

The Redcar MP who lost her seat pointed this out.

Yet the narrative rehashed ferociously by the social media cheerleaders and dozy frontbenchers is that it was Brexit wot won it. But for every time Brexit was raised on the doorsteps, the leadership was raised four more – even by those sticking with us. There was visceral anger from lifelong Labour voters who felt they couldn’t vote for the party they had supported all their lives because of “that man at the top”. They had sent us this message loud and clear in 2017; I was told frequently by my constituents to “go back down to London and get rid of him”.


None of this will come out in the forthcoming analysis of why Labour lost. If it does, it will be Corbyn – destroyed by the evil mainstream media and stabbed in the back by treacherous Blairites – not Corbynism that takes the blame.

To blame Brexit is to miss the point. There would be no Brexit if Labour had had credible leadership in the 2016 referendum, standing up for our party’s values of cooperation, internationalism and partnership. Instead, we had a guy who dressed up in a fur coat to go on The Last Leg and give the EU “seven and a half out of ten”. No one put forward an argument to working-class Labour communities about why the EU mattered to them, because the leader didn’t believe that it did. Ever since, instead of strong leadership and a clear position, then we have had three years of U-turns, triangulation and dancing on pinheads. I have never been able to tell my constituents what Labour’s Brexit position truly was – only my own.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

Professor Moriarty

Rjd2 wrote: »

Corbyn has lost 2 elections and the recent a landslide. I understand a lot of people think the man is God and everyone is out to get them but he must take some blame for these losses.

The Redcar MP who lost her seat pointed this out.




https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

Give that woman a gold star.

devnull

rossie1977 wrote: »

More people voted Labour in 17 than they did under Brown in 2010 or Milliband in 2015.

The very worse narrative is the one whereby Momentum ignore the 2019 election result because it doesn't suit them and keep harping back on about 2017 because they are in denial about what their hero failed to achieved in 2019, so instead pretend it never happened, say it was an outlier, a fluke, a one-off etc.

The fact is that Corbyn has led the party to their worst result since before the Second World War. Just erasing that from history and saying that in the previous election, Corbyn didn't fail quite as much as other people so therefore that is a truer reflection of him and we'll just forget 2019 ever happened is pathetic.

Labour got the lowest number of seats in 2019 on Jeremy Corbyn's watch since the Second World War and the majority of people who didn't vote Labour said Corbyn was the main reason. Until Momentum accept that fact and stop making excuses, then they're just sitting back and letting the Tories destroy the UK.

The year is 2019, there was an election last week, you can see results here if you are not aware:
https://election.news.sky.com/snap-general-election-27

McGiver

rossie1977 wrote:

He didn't. As plenty have stated tories vote barely rose from 13,636,684 votes in 2017 and 13,966,565 in 2019.

This is a very superficial analysis. Total vote count is somewhat irrelevant in fptp.

You need to analyse votes in the Northern constituencies which were Labour before and are Tory now. Compare 2019 with 2017 and 2015 results. One by one and observe the patterns.

Strazdas

Rjd2 wrote: »

Corbyn has lost 2 elections and the recent a landslide. I understand a lot of people think the man is God and everyone is out to get him but he must take some blame for these losses.

The Redcar MP who lost her seat pointed this out.




https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html

She makes some excellent points. Why wasn't Corbyn calling out the referendum as fraudulent as any opposition party leader would have been entitled to do? He was a Brexiteer himself, hence all his "respecting the result of the referendum" nonsense.

The Labour debacle was definitely an anti-Corbyn vote.

rossie1977

Rjd2 wrote: »

Corbyn has lost 2 elections and the recent a landslide. I understand a lot of people think the man is God and everyone is out to get him but he must take some blame for these losses.

I don’t think Corbyn is god or anything near. He had numerous clear faults such as his inability to convince voters where he stood on Brexit. I personally would not have voted Labour if I were in the UK.

However my point was that regardless who Labour elect as leader they face the same issues next time because this campaign has been so successful from Murdoch led media last few years.

Labour will just be better off sitting back for next 5 years while the Tories do what they always do ie reward the rich, making a handful of new people wealthy while public expenditure and services are cut.

The UK economy is already shrinking and that's before the real effects of Brexit hit home over next 3-5 years. Cone next election it will be 15 years of Tory government, by then the excuses of blaming everything on the EU will have worn thin for most voters.

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

She makes some excellent points. Why wasn't Corbyn calling out the referendum as fraudulent as any opposition party leader would have been entitled to do? He was a Brexiteer himself, hence all his "respecting the result of the referendum" nonsense.

The Labour debacle was definitely an anti-Corbyn vote.

Labour's position on Brexit was way too confusing. i still dont know exactly what is it/was.

as somebody who has worked in marketing, i know once a message becomes confused it ceases to be a message.

K eep
I t
S imple
S uckers

droidus

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

another observation i would make is, Corbyn's leadership and Lab's Brexit stance go hand in hand. it's extremely difficult to disentangle the 2 imo. such is the nature of these surveys i suppose.

Exactly, in fact respondents dislike of Corbyn was often related to Brexit.

https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/1206700710995345409

ILoveYourVibes

Strazdas wrote: »

She makes some excellent points. Why wasn't Corbyn calling out the referendum as fraudulent as any opposition party leader would have been entitled to do? He was a Brexiteer himself, hence all his "respecting the result of the referendum" nonsense.

The Labour debacle was definitely an anti-Corbyn vote.

He wanted to be all things to all people he knew the working class vote was largely brexit favoring.

He didn't attempt to persuade them. Or even see that they were well informed on the truth about the EU.

Maybe its intellectually beyond him. Or perhaps he is eurosceptic.

The question that constantly comes up with Corbyn is ....why isn't he good at anything?

His first action after the brexit ref should have been to try and call a second ref ....i reckon if he had staked his campaign on it he would have one ...at least once.

Water John

Corbyn himself favoured leaving the EU. It's that simple.
Lb will make a fatal mistake if it doesn't honestly review the election result.
That full review precedes the selection of a new leader. Thus an interim leader should be put in place.

Leonard Hofstadter

Water John wrote: »

Corbyn himself favoured leaving the EU. It's that simple.
Lb will make a fatal mistake if it doesn't honestly review the election result.
That full review precedes the selection of a new leader. Thus an interim leader should be put in place.

Given that the British Labour party is more interested in ideological purity and sees its biggest enemies as the various factions within the party as opposed to the real enemy (the Tories), you can be guaranteed that they will make this mistake and thus ensure that no matter what the Tories do over the next five years that they will get in again.

They'd rather fight with themselves and moan about the Blairites than actually go into power and help the working people they claim to represent. A bit like the hard left here, then again as we all know the first item on the agenda of the Left is the split.

Now this isn't a problem in Ireland, because our 'right wing' parties aren't really right wing at all (bar the one or two nutcase parties like Identity Ireland and so on - but they get less than 1% of the vote so they don't really count), centre right at most (and even that's a bit of a stretch), they actually have competent people, they don't believe in some of the hateful bile that has come out of the Tories (like threatening to starve people, as Priti Patel did) and they most emphatically want us to stay in the EU so they are some way economically competent, but none of the above is true for the right in the UK. Really the Tories are a far right party, Boris himself is most certainly not an ideologue, but some of his cabinet are far right.

But this is a massive problem in the UK, they are going to have an absolutely dreadful Government, and knowing UK Labour's ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (worse than Fine Gael for this really), nobody to credibly oppose them.

It's times like this that makes me so glad I moved back to Ireland, because if I was still living there, I'd be very worried about the next five years.

Boris may turn out to be alright and go back to the centre (the one thing that gives me hope that he will is the fact he is even more interested in hanging on in Number 10 than Teresa May was so he'll have to go back to the centre somewhat to make sure that he wins again), but you just wouldn't know with him.

Water John

The framing of a law to leave, no matter what at the end of 2020 is not a good signal from Johnson. If he had confidence in his own ability to lead, he wouldn't do it.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

The framing of a law to leave, no matter what at the end of 2020 is not a good signal from Johnson. If he had confidence in his own ability to lead, he wouldn't do it.

It sends a clear signal to Leave voters that he is serious about his manifesto pledge.

Letwin_Larry

Boris finishing the first cabinet of the new Govt. talking about building hospitals, more police, social justice, delivering on voter's confidence. Employment up, unemployment down.

Lab can take their time over corbyn's successor, as they are goosed for the next decade at least.

ambro25

Deleted User wrote: »

It sends a clear signal to Leave voters that he is serious about his manifesto pledge.

It sends a still-clearer signal to UK plc that he is still operating in "f*** business" mode.

Honda Engineering Europe heard him just fine, that's another 81 highly-qualified, high-earning R&D jobs gone in the UK. The thinnest of ends, of a very large wedge.

Are manifestos edible?

Bannasidhe

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Boris finishing the first cabinet of the new Govt. talking about building hospitals, more police, social justice, delivering on voter's confidence. Employment up, unemployment down.

Lab can take their time over corbyn's successor, as they are goosed for the next decade at least.

Talk is cheap - especially when it's Johnson who is talking.

I notice he is also talking about legislation that puts No Deal back on the table.
Someone will certainly be goosed if that happens - and many of those goosed will be the ones who apparently didn't like Corbyn so they voted to drive the economy off a cliff.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Boris finishing the first cabinet of the new Govt. talking about building hospitals, more police, social justice, delivering on voter's confidence. Employment up, unemployment down.

Lab can take their time over corbyn's successor, as they are goosed for the next decade at least.

Still lying about the 50,000 new nurses i noticed and having a jolly good joke about it in the process. And why not? Hardly as if they'll be held to account on these things anytime soon.

ArmaniJeanss

Nikki Morgan made a life-peer which enables her to keep her previous cabinet job.
That's kinda underhand.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Still lying about the 50,000 new nurses i noticed and having a jolly good joke about it in the process. And why not? Hardly as if they'll be held to account on these things anytime soon.

he also said they would work 24 hours a day, which we know is not possible. still it's nice sounding rhetoric and gives people a flavour of things to come.

by putting No Deal Brexit back on the table, he is ensuring Barnier and friends know he means business, so they better take it seriously and no more silly games.

Teresa has left, there is a New Sheriff in town!

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Still lying about the 50,000 new nurses i noticed and having a jolly good joke about it in the process. And why not? Hardly as if they'll be held to account on these things anytime soon.

The problem with British public is not that Politicians and others with power and influence are lying. It's that the public are happy to be lied to if it makes them feel good. That's the mistake the remain side made. They used the economy in 2016 and the NHS in 2019. Lessons weren't learned and here is the result.

Joe_ Public

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Nikki Morgan made a life-peer which enables her to keep her previous cabinet job.
That's kinda underhand.

Given how family commitments apparently prevented her from seeking reelection, its a wonder they've just suddenly vanished to enable her to go back into cabinet. Politics, eh?

Infini

Deleted User wrote: »

It sends a clear signal to Leave voters that he is serious about his manifesto pledge.

It's also a stupid move on his part though as it doesn't strengthen his hand at all only weaken it. End of the day he has a Majority and can simply remove it with a later amendment but he's being warned he wont get a trade deal quickly because of the simple truth that the time he want's it done is simply too short. Also once they leave next month it's actually even harder because to get any deal actually approved with a 3rd party country it has to be ratified by all parliaments and it just takes one to throw a monkey wrench in the works.

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

he also said they would work 24 hours a day, which we know is not possible. still it's nice sounding rhetoric and gives people a flavour of things to come.

by putting No Deal Brexit back on the table, he is ensuring Barnier and friends know he means business, so they better take it seriously and no more silly games.

Teresa has left, there is a New Sheriff in town!

Sadly he's the only one playing games, he's the one driving a beetle in a head on collision against the EU Freight Train, doesn't change the truth that the UK is at a massive disadvantage in all of this and that if push come to shove it's them that get shoved simply because quite simply, The EU's numbers are bigger than theirs.

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem with British public is not that Politicians and others with power and influence are lying. It's that the public are happy to be lied to if it makes them feel good. That's the mistake the remain side made. They used the economy in 2016 and the NHS in 2019. Lessons weren't learned and here is the result.

There was a headline on a piece in the guardian a couple of weeks back that went: "if everybody's lying then the tories win". Summed it up for me. It frames the dilemma for one side when the other is prepared to go to any lengths to win. Do you join them in the trenches and signal your willingness to go nuclear or do you stay classy and keep the obama "when they go low, we go high mantra?"

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

There was a headline on a piece in the guardian a couple of weeks back that went: "if everybody's lying then the tories win". Summed it up for me. It frames the dilemma for one side when the other is prepared to go to any lengths to win. Do you join them in the trenches and signal your willingness to go nuclear or do you stay classy and keep the obama "when they go low, we go high mantra?"

If they go low, you go lower - if needs be. Without power, you and your policies don't matter.

Bannasidhe

Joe_ Public wrote: »

There was a headline on a piece in the guardian a couple of weeks back that went: "if everybody's lying then the tories win". Summed it up for me. It frames the dilemma for one side when the other is prepared to go to any lengths to win. Do you join them in the trenches and signal your willingness to go nuclear or do you stay classy and keep the obama "when they go low, we go high mantra?"

But yet apparently the reason Labour lost is Corbyn was on the fence/hates the UK/is a Marxist and, of course, Momentum - not because Johnson told massive pork pies and wasn't called on them by journalists, and spouted positive sounding meaningless soundbites.

Everyone knows Johnson is a liar, but they elected him. Now it's a case of wait and see the fall out.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If they go low, you go lower - if needs be. Without power, you and your policies don't matter.

Lower than boris johnson and dominic cummings? Certainly a rather bracing thought to contemplate.

Bannasidhe

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If they go low, you go lower - if needs be. Without power, you and your policies don't matter.

And there, in a nutshell, is why Corbyn lost.
He doesn't believe the end justifies the means.

tbh - neither do I. Too many people become collateral damage when one pursues that philosophy.

Letwin_Larry

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But yet apparently the reason Labour lost is Corbyn was on the fence/hates the UK/is a Marxist and, of course, Momentum - not because Johnson told massive pork pies and wasn't called on them by journalists, and spouted positive sounding meaningless soundbites.

Everyone knows Johnson is a liar, but they elected him. Now it's a case of wait and see the fall out.

i disagree. it's a case of wait 'n see what he delivers.
i mean you have to give him a chance before you start spouting on about fallout, otherwise you are just exposing your own inherent bias.

Joe_ Public

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But yet apparently the reason Labour lost is Corbyn was on the fence/hates the UK/is a Marxist and, of course, Momentum - not because Johnson told massive pork pies and wasn't called on them by journalists, and spouted positive sounding meaningless soundbites.

Everyone knows Johnson is a liar, but they elected him. Now it's a case of wait and see the fall out.

I dont think either conclusion put forward is mutually exclusive in that corbyn had debilitating weaknesses and made mistakes but also that the media and establishment forces against him were pretty shoddy and alarming. Both positions have truth. Like i said here before, if the general perception is created that all of them are lying - which the media is happy to promulgate - then the voters will likely go for the clown that at least offers entertainment value.

Bannasidhe

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i disagree. it's a case of wait 'n see what he delivers.
i mean you have to give him a chance before you start spouting on about fallout, otherwise you are just exposing your own inherent bias.

Bias?

Or looking at his track record? His track record is littered with lies. This is demonstrable.

Are we now expected to believe the leopard will change his spots?