General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

fred the head

I am born and bred in Northern England and from a traditional Labour voting household, but now after speaking to members of my family about the result of the general election they have confirmed a few of my own feelings regarding the current state of the Labour party. They will never vote for a Tory it is just not something you would even consider, and as such the majority did not vote. Why?

We were brought up with grandparents and parents who treated the Labour party and Trade unionism as close to a religion, we know the roots and aims of the party. We were taught on our grandfathers knee about the Fabian society the co-operative and religious movements who with the trade unions coalesced to become the party of the working man there to fight our corner in parliament.

BUT does the present party fulfil our ideals and hopes in representing us or has it become, as I and my family and friends feel, in it’s latest reincarnation a Bennite protest organisation founded in the universities if the 1960’s leaning towards Marxism and state control. We gave Blair a chance rightly or wrongly because he continued the work of John Smith and surrounded himself with solid trade unionists.

The party has had these same divisions before with the rise of militant in the 80’s and the Marxism in the trade unions in the 70’s, these were put where they belong, a voice, a conscience within the party but not it’s heart and soul.

I personally did not vote this time or last although I am entitled still to a postal vote, I just cannot endorse the Partys present path

Roger_007

The Labour Party in the UK, as everyone recognises, is really a coalition of two parties who are forced by the FPTP electoral system to pretend that they are a single party in order to win a respectable number of seats. If they broke up into what would, in any other system, be two separate parties, they would each win very few seats unless they had some sort of electoral pact.
As there is zero prospect of the electoral system changing any time soon, the two wings of Labour are condemned to cohabit like a married couple whose marriage is long over but can’t afford to get a divorce because they would both be destitute.
(Ironically, the Tories are in the same divided position but parties of the right tend to be more pragmatic and can bury their differences more easily.)
The upcoming Labour leadership contest is going to determine Labour’s fortunes for the next 10 years. If a Corbynite like Long-Bailey wins, then Labour can kiss goodbye to any chance of government in 2024. They should also stop talking about the next leader having to be female. It should be the best person for the job and not be determined by their genitals. One way or the other it’s going to be an entertaining spectacle, (especially for those who like blood sports).

Bannasidhe

fred the head wrote: »

I am born and bred in Northern England and from a traditional Labour voting household, but now after speaking to members of my family about the result of the general election they have confirmed a few of my own feelings regarding the current state of the Labour party. They will never vote for a Tory it is just not something you would even consider, and as such the majority did not vote. Why?
We were brought up with grandparents and parents who treated the Labour party and Trade unionism as close to a religion, we know the roots and aims of the party. We were taught on or grandfathers knee about the Fabian society the co-operative and religious movements who with the trade unions coalesced to become the party of the working man there to fight our corner in parliament.
BUT does the present party fulfil our ideals and hopes in representing us or has it become, as I and my family and friends feel, in it’s latest reincarnation a Bennite protest organisation founded in the universities if the 1960’s leaning towards Marxism and state control. We gave Blair a chance rightly or wrongly because he continued the work of John Smith and surrounded himself with solid trade unionists.
The party has had these same divisions before with the rise of militant in the 80’s and the Marxism in the trade unions in the 70’s, these were put where they belong, a voice, a conscience within the party but not it’s heart and soul.
I personally did not vote this time or last although I am entitled still to a postal vote, I just cannot endorse the Partys present path

That would echo what I have been hearing from my friends in Sheffield. But when I ask what they want I get very contradictory answers.
May I ask what steps you think Labour should take to regain voters such as your family?

I remember the Militant days well andI was no fan of Hatton (with the exception of Linda Bellos he was the person I was most likely to tell F off in a meeting - and demand it be minuted ) yet the LP has held it's support in Liverpool despite the damage done there by Militant's stranglehold over the city council.
Why do you think this is?
I know many feel it is linked to the on going boycott of The Sun but there must be more to it than that.

quokula

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Since the 2017 election, Labour's vote dropped by 2,500,000 which equates to -20%. Nothing to do with Miliband or Brown. Everything to do with Corbyn, his buddies and their policies.

You’re aware Corbyn was in charge in 2017 right? I was talking about the comparison with every other recent Labour leader, who did worse in terms of number of votes (though not in seats under FPTP)

fred the head

One of the big things is the discrepancy between the wealthy and the average worker, this need to be sorted out, not through nationalisation of industries or further state control, this in my own opinion is where the distrust of the present party comes from, its the attitude of "don't worry comrade we have your best interest at heart, we just need even more power"

Look at the ideas Alan Johnson had on reform of the post office, he was a postman afterall, an organisation not under state control but under control of ALL those who worked there, pay settlements were to be worked out in within the organisation, the pay of all from he managing director to the lowliest worker would be set by representatives of all who worked there, a percentage of profits would be given to shareholders,and bonuses paid to all if the money was there. This is very much the model as set out in Germany

Compare that to today where in large organisations the Board of directors pay is set by shareholders who are just there to scalp as much as possible.

The present Labour party are using the ideas of the 70's, strong unions and state control no one has any interest in making the organistaion a viable profitable entity just a means for more power more control.

Mr.Nice Guy

Thornberry would be a disaster for Labour and would be a gift to the Tories. She comes across as very condescending and is tainted by the 'white van man' episode. RLB meanwhile is perceived as another Corbyn acolyte.

Starmer to me is a no-brainer and would contrast quite well with Johnson. Seems however that the fact he's a man is going to count against him since the party apparently wants a female leader. I like Nandy but not sure she's leader material.

I think Labour's in huge trouble for the decade ahead. Reminds me of when the Tories looked bereft of direction and were relying on the likes of IDS and Michael Howard who never looked up to the task.

Professor Moriarty

quokula wrote: »

You’re aware Corbyn was in charge in 2017 right? I was talking about the comparison with every other recent Labour leader, who did worse in terms of number of votes (though not in seats under FPTP)

Yes I was aware of that. I'm also aware that, in 2017, he couldn't defeat a Tory party split in two and led by a corpse. Since then, Corbyn further decimated the Labour vote and handed the Tories their biggest victory in 32 years. Other Labour leaders were up against a different Tory party with different leaders so comparisons are invidious. Despite the opportunities handed to him by the Tories, Corbyn has been a dismal failure.

Strazdas

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes I was aware of that. I'm also aware that, in 2017, he couldn't defeat a Tory party split in two and led by a corpse. Since then, Corbyn further decimated the Labour vote and handed the Tories their biggest victory in 32 years. Other Labour leaders were up against a different Tory party with different leaders so comparisons are invidious. Despite the opportunities handed to him by the Tories, Corbyn has been a dismal failure.

An even vaguely competent opposition leader should have been able to do huge damage to such a terrible and dislikeable version of the Tory Party.

The fact that he couldn't is very damning.

beggars_bush

Strazdas wrote: »

An even vaguely competent opposition leader should have been able to do huge damage to such a terrible and dislikeable version of the Tory Party.

The fact that he couldn't is very damning.

Not damning when you consider what the Tories just spent on the election campaign, on smear and fake news stories
With free support from the billionaire media owners and a compliant BBC

Professor Moriarty

beggars_bush wrote: »

Not damning when you consider what the Tories just spent on the election campaign, on smear and fake news stories
With free support from the billionaire media owners and a compliant BBC

You obviously don't watch Newsnight.

joe40

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Yes I was aware of that. I'm also aware that, in 2017, he couldn't defeat a Tory party split in two and led by a corpse. Since then, Corbyn further decimated the Labour vote and handed the Tories their biggest victory in 32 years. Other Labour leaders were up against a different Tory party with different leaders so comparisons are invidious. Despite the opportunities handed to him by the Tories, Corbyn has been a dismal failure.

This is just a general query but interested in people's thoughts.
Is corbyn a failure because of the policies he pursued or the way he communicated his message.
Surely a politician should stand over their policies and beliefs even if they're rejected by the electorate. The core principals should not change.
An inability to lead and inspire is a different issue.
Where do people feel Corbyn went wrong? I would respect politicians who stand by their position.
An electorate disagreeing doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong.
I'm reminded of a quote from "yes prime minister". PM to sir Humphrey " they're my people I must follow them"

Water John

Your policy must, as a leader be tempered with reality of what's achievable.
Jacinda Ardern had to drop one of her key policies, (can't remember, but maybe health) as her coalition partner wouldn't bite. That's reality. she could have taken the high ground and now be in opposition.
Politics is the art of the possible.

fred the head

Bannasidhe wrote: »

That would echo what I have been hearing from my friends in Sheffield. But when I ask what they want I get very contradictory answers.
May I ask what steps you think Labour should take to regain voters such as your family?

I remember the Militant days well andI was no fan of Hatton (with the exception of Linda Bellos he was the person I was most likely to tell F off in a meeting - and demand it be minuted ) yet the LP has held it's support in Liverpool despite the damage done there by Militant's stranglehold over the city council.
Why do you think this is?
I know many feel it is linked to the on going boycott of The Sun but there must be more to it than that.

Well Bannasidhe, Merseyside is a bit of an unusual case Boris Johnson is absolutely toxic there because of his Hillsborough comments and refusal to appoligise this along with Thatchers "managed decline" policy mean that the Torys will never gain any foothold there for many many years. My vote would have been in a Merseyside constituency, Labour won,of that there was of no doubt but their vote share was massively down. People just didn't like them. What would have been interesting is how it would have turned out had there been a viable left wing "third way".

Frank Field now an intependent took 17 pc of the Labour vote in Birkenhead even though he was effectively expelled from the Labour party and took a remainer stance in a town which voted to leave.


I think it may take three electoral cycles for labour to become viable again

quokula

fred the head wrote: »

Well Bannasidhe, Merseyside is a bit of an unusual case Boris Johnson is absolutely toxic there because of his Hillsborough comments and refusal to appoligise this along with Thatchers "managed decline" policy mean that the Torys will never gain any foothold there for many many years. My vote would have been in a Merseyside constituency, Labour won,of that there was of no doubt but their vote share was massively down. People just didn't like them. What would have been interesting is how it would have turned out had there been a viable left wing "third way".

Frank Field now an intependent took 17 pc of the Labour vote in Birkenhead even though he was effectively expelled from the Labour party and took a remainer stance in a town which voted to leave.


I think it may take three electoral cycles for labour to become viable again

You've got your facts wrong on Field - he was a very prominent Brexiteer, probably the next most pro-Brexit voice in the Labour party behind Kate Hoey. This was essentially why he resigned.

As a long time MP for the area it's no surprise that he split the vote, and says a lot about the strength of the party that they still won comfortably despite that set back.

This describes the view from Liverpool pretty well:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/once-again-liverpool-stands-alone-17413354

Liverpool is not totally unique in this, London is still an overwhelmingly pro-Labour city too.

fred the head

Mea Culpa on the Frank Field I was arse about face there !! (early starts)

Just goes to show that Brexit may not be the be all and end all as seems to be the prevailing viewpoint.


Frank field a brexiteer in a predominately remain area (Wirral) took 17pc of the vote from Labour.


The Labour vote was down in every Merseyside constituency if the party don't do something quickly it may be the next North East.


unbiased Political viewpoint from the Echo c'mon

10000maniacs

The BBC out and about in Leigh Lancashire talking to the locals.
"I'm glad that I have voted Conservative for the first time"
"but they have been in power for the last 9 years"
"Oh yeah!"

Letwin_Larry

10000maniacs wrote: »

The BBC out and about in Leigh Lancashire talking to the locals.
"I'm glad that I have voted Conservative for the first time"
"but they have been in power for the last 9 years"
"Oh yeah!"

actually what the interviewee said at the very end was "not here they haven't"

quokula

10000maniacs wrote: »

The BBC out and about in Leigh Lancashire talking to the locals.
"I'm glad that I have voted Conservative for the first time"
"but they have been in power for the last 9 years"
"Oh yeah!"

I saw more than a few vox pops with people saying they’ve been voting labour for years but things have been getting worse and worse so it’s time to switch. It’s hard to counter that level of ignorance.

Letwin_Larry

Boris really tore Corbyn to shreds this afternoon. his speech was entertaining and ridiculed Corbyn in so many ways. i almost felt sorry for him.

Letwin_Larry

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Boris really tore Corbyn to shreds this afternoon. his speech was entertaining and ridiculed Corbyn in so many ways. i almost felt sorry for him.

Corbyn looked politically anaemic.

I hate to say it, but the Labour Party needs a Blair-like figure, otherwise they face the next decade of Johnson in power.

Strazdas

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

actually what the interviewee said at the very end was "not here they haven't"

But they have!

There was a woman in Scunthorpe tonight on Newsnight saying she voted for the Conservatives as she was "voting for change".

The right wing press have done some job on the electorate in convincing them that voting for a ten year austerity government is a vote for change.

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

But they have!

There was a woman in Scunthorpe tonight on Newsnight saying she voted for the Conservatives as she was "voting for change".

The right wing press have done some job on the electorate in convincing them that voting for a ten year austerity government is a vote for change.

Nothing in the UK is going to happen all the time there is continuing uncertainty around Brexit.

The simple message "Get Brexit done" was one that resonated well. Once it is done the UK can move on, there was nothing in the Labour message that gave that impression and the uncertainty around the leader's position just reinforced this.

DrumSteve

Deleted User wrote: »

Corbyn looked politically anaemic.

I hate to say it, but the Labour Party needs a Blair-like figure, otherwise they face the next decade of Johnson in power.

I think Starmer could be that man.

I reckon they would have done much better with him in charge and I say that as someone who has a lot of time for Corbyn.

Sam Russell

Strazdas wrote: »

But they have!

There was a woman in Scunthorpe tonight on Newsnight saying she voted for the Conservatives as she was "voting for change".

The right wing press have done some job on the electorate in convincing them that voting for a ten year austerity government is a vote for change.

Vox pops are nonsense. I am reminded of the English reporter shouting at a crowd that had just survived a disaster - 'Has anybody lost a relative and speaks English?' So a person that can speak a smattering of basic English can speak for a nation.

Vox pops are usually self selecting, without any scrutiny of what is said.
'I always voted xxxx but I have switched because of yyyy!' Have you though?
'I read in the Daily Rag xxxx xxx xxxx, and it is a disgrace!' But that was a lie.
No attempt is made at verification.

Journalism is has reached a new low.

maynooth_rules

DrumSteve wrote: »

I think Starmer could be that man.

I reckon they would have done much better with him in charge and I say that as someone who has a lot of time for Corbyn.

It won't be Starmer. It should, but it won't. Corbyn is only staying around to try to anoint his far left successor, who for some reason must have ovaries.
It's shameful that we have to put up with Corbyn until next March. If he had any pride whatsoever he would have walked by now.

devnull

Article in the Times:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/stalinist-takes-charge-of-rebecca-long-baileys-labour-leadership-campaign-q8pkp9qc6?fbclid=IwAR33AvU_PBZHHXP2aTYJ9zHxSnH8Ml57Ei2j7O_182ChxNYxC4PqRSu7BpE

Harf left candidate Rebecca Long Bailey is to get a self-proclaimed Stalinist to organise her campaign for the leadership.

It's believed that it will be headlined by Alex Halligan, who ran Jeremy Corbyn's campaign to become leader in 2015.

This is a badge that Halligan has been seen wearing



This is the last thing that Labour need right now, Johnson is laughing his head off.

Rjd2

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1208503645584666626

Milne might be actually worse than hill/timothy of 2017.

maynooth_rules

maynooth_rules wrote: »

It won't be Starmer. It should, but it won't. Corbyn is only staying around to try to anoint his far left successor, who for some reason must have ovaries.
It's shameful that we have to put up with Corbyn until next March. If he had any pride whatsoever he would have walked by now.

The worst performing Labour leader since 1935 has decided, in the "party's interest", to stay on for a third of a year.

Complete and utter madness.

I'm no fan of Labour, but the UK does best when it has a strong and viable Opposition. Corbyn should abdicate now and let the process continue as it should, rather than vying to secure a leader to succeed his political failures.

If Corbyn Mark II takes over, Johnson will almost definitely secure a victory in 2024. Long-Bailey CANNOT become Labour leader.

She's perhaps more suited toward teaching Microsoft Word to those who failed their A levels.

20Cent

Whoever was leader of the Labour party would have had the same or similar smears against them as Corbyn did. The problem is with the press in the UK and the public need to get better are sifting through the b's to inform themselves.

20Cent

20Cent wrote: »

Whoever was leader of the Labour party would have had the same or similar smears against them as Corbyn did. The problem is with the press in the UK and the public need to get better are sifting through the b's to inform themselves.

What!?

So, by that logic, Corbyn perhaps shouldn't resign and may become popular in 2024?

Corbyn shouldn't resign, yes?