General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

I continue to find you position odd. You want Corbyn gone and Johnson in charge. Yet it is Johnson, and the conservatives, that are currently the biggest threat to the union. And Corbyn wants to nationalise many industries, surely this aligns with you belied that people directly effected should be able to vote for those in charge, rather than some foreign CEO?

Corbyn wants to invest in the country, increase spending on schools, hospitals, police, transport. Johnson seems to think everything is pretty much ok as it is and only needs small tweeks here and there.

I'm against nationalisation in theory, and would rather see the free market take hold as much as possible. Not always possible, but as much as possible. That's my short answer.

Corbyn wants to invest in schools, NHS etc.

I cannot wait for a UK politician to stand up and say, "I will not be investing in schools, NHS, infrastructure, and the economy and, for this reason, I hope I have your vote".

Of course Corbyn has to say those things - who will disagree?

What matters is not what's promised, but what's delivered - and I trust a Tory government over a Neo-Marxist government every time. No government will ever be perfect, so pointing to a handful of flaws here and there is a little pointless really.

We can't trust politicians full stop. At best, we can only deliver the least worst option. In this case, that's the Tory's - who are by far the least worst option on the table - by 10 million miles, in fact.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm against nationalisation in theory, and would rather see the free market take hold as much as possible. Not always possible, but as much as possible. That's my short answer.

Corbyn wants to invest in schools, NHS etc.

I cannot wait for a UK politician to stand up and say, "I will not be investing in schools, NHS, infrastructure, and the economy and, for this reason, I hope I have your vote".

Of course Corbyn has to say those things - who will disagree?

What matters is not what's promised, but what's delivered - and I trust a Tory government over a Neo-Marxist government every time. No government will ever be perfect, so pointing to a handful of flaws here and there is a little pointless really.

We can't trust politicians full stop. At best, we can only deliver the least worst option. In this case, that's the Tory's - who are by far the least worst option on the table - by 10 million miles, in fact.

Johnson basically said exactly this on Sunday!

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Johnson basically said exactly this on Sunday!

That's your interpretation and you are entitled to it.

I too listened to his excellent speech and found it filled with optimism, economic pragmatism, and an unwavering commitment to deliver Brexit.

That's why Johnson has my vote.

You want unicorns? Visit Corbyn's la-la-land; an orgy of socialist delusion.

They're free over there, just so you know.

SaintLeibowitz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm against nationalisation in theory, and would rather see the free market take hold as much as possible. Not always possible, but as much as possible. That's my short answer.

Corbyn wants to invest in schools, NHS etc.

I cannot wait for a UK politician to stand up and say, "I will not be investing in schools, NHS, infrastructure, and the economy and, for this reason, I hope I have your vote".

Of course Corbyn has to say those things - who will disagree?

What matters is not what's promised, but what's delivered - and I trust a Tory government over a Neo-Marxist government every time. No government will ever be perfect, so pointing to a handful of flaws here and there is a little pointless really.

We can't trust politicians full stop. At best, we can only deliver the least worst option. In this case, that's the Tory's - who are by far the least worst option on the table - by 10 million miles, in fact.

I would like to point out that laissez faire free marketers are not in any way moderate.

You claim that corbyn is neo-Marxist. Your claim is that he is a extremist, yet its. Laughable considering you hold extreme Views yourself.

SaintLeibowitz

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

I would like to point out that laissez faire free marketers are not in any way moderate.

You claim that corbyn is neo-Marxist. Your claim is that he is a extremist, yet its. Laughable considering you hold extreme Views yourself.

Free market capitalism has done more than anything else to lift more people out of poverty.

So, whilst it's convenient to point to "the 1%", it is through free market capitalism that has lifted more people, than ever, out of poverty and improve their standard of living - whether it's through phones, vaccinations or whatever; it's the profit motive that allows for the mass creation of the means through which the poorest can benefit.

That's not extreme. All evidence points to this.

Socialism is fantasy economics. Whilst it sounds fair and delicious in theory, it simply cannot compete with free market capitalism.

Irritates the life out of me how Corbyn supports the "ordinary worker", but not the business owner who allows the "ordinary worker" to be a "worker" in the first place.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

I cannot wait for a UK politician to stand up and say, "I will not be investing in schools, NHS, infrastructure, and the economy and, for this reason, I hope I have your vote".

Wouldn't you be better off emigrating to the USA? You could have all of that, and the consequences arising therefrom, within days of your arrival.

Of course you'd have to live under a federalist super-state regime with a severely compromised (un)democratic process, but hey, you can't have everything can you? And Jeremy Corbyn doesn't live there - that's got to be a major attraction for you! :P

SaintLeibowitz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Free market capitalism has done more than anything else to lift more people out of poverty.

So, whilst it's convenient to point to "the 1%", it is through free market capitalism that has lifted more people, than ever, out of poverty and improve their standard of living - whether it's through phones, vaccinations or whatever; it's the profit motive that allows for the mass creation of the means through which the poorest can benefit.

That's not extreme. All evidence points to this.

Socialism is fantasy economics. Whilst it sounds fair and delicious in theory, it simply cannot compete with free market capitalism.

Irritates the life out of me how Corbyn supports the "ordinary worker", but not the business owner who allows the "ordinary worker" to be a "worker" in the first place.

Lassiez faire free marketers are extremists who put their ideology over the welfare of the citizens inflicted with them.

I'm not here to argue with an extremist who calls others extremists.

Maybe also you should read up on why such things as trade unions developed. Of course labour would be pro worker.

ancapailldorcha

Free markets are an imaginary construct in the context of Brexit. What'll happen is that state assets will be sold off to insiders. "Kleptocracy" would be more appropriate.

ancapailldorcha

McGiver wrote: »

Oh yes. The founder is a Tory donor plus other dodgy things.

https://www.civilsociety.co.uk/news/full-fact-gets-charity-status-after-being-rejected-twice.html
https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/unbiased-full-fact-comes-brexit/

Given this we can't trust them fully. Need to fact check a "fact check"!

Ok. Thanks for the links. That said, I've always found Fullfact to be reasonable. I've never seen them do anything outrageous.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

They're free over there, just so you know.

So on one hand Corbyn is going to raise taxes, and the other everything is free!

The manifesto is costed. Big spending will be paid for the increases in taxes.

You asked for an MP to say they weren't gong to invest and I showed you that. Corbyn is being honest that investment needs money, but you don't like that either.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

They are capitalist economies with a healthy dose of "social democracy".

Indeed, exactly what the Labour Party is setting out in their manifesto.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Can we keep on topic, please? That is the UK election. The bigot stuff is unwelcome here so no more of that either please.

A Dub in Glasgo

Tory Manifesto page 10 states there will be 50,000 more nurses in the NHS. Trouble for the lying Tories is that 19,000 already work as nurses in the NHS so they are looking to have 31,000 more nurses

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Watch Nikki Morgan explain that on TV this morning

https://twitter.com/TartanSeer/status/1198988260476956673

McGiver

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

55% voted No to independence in 2014 - overwhelming it most certainly was not

62% voted to Remain in the EU in 2016

By the way, did anyone calculate the impact of English residents in Scotland?
For both indyRef and Brexit. I believe there are something like 13% of the voting base.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has significant impact on both referenda.
I.e. in reality I think Scottish voters are at least +5% much more Remain and IndyRef than what the results showed.

So you're talking 50% pro-independence and 67% pro-remain.

Joe_ Public

One thing increasingly annoying me today is the aggressive questioning of labours proposal to drop the marriage tax allowance. On Victoria Derbyshire show this morning a labour candidate actually said he couldn't give a reason as to why they are proposing to abolish it. Its because they want to implement a fairer system and not exclude couples who for whatever reason dont want or feel the need to get married. These people complaining about losing one benefit dont seem to be thankful for all the other benefits they will be receiving. There's nothing hypocritical about it at all.

sid waddell

This is the first poll that gives Labour real hope that we could see a similar dynamic to 2017:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1199008413394571264

Stop moaning ffs

McGiver wrote: »

By the way, did anyone calculate the impact of English residents in Scotland?
For both indyRef and Brexit. I believe there are something like 13% of the voting base.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has significant impact on both referenda.
I.e. in reality I think Scottish voters are at least +5% much more Remain and IndyRef than what the results showed.

So you're talking 50% pro-independence and 67% pro-remain.

Wasn’t it only one constituency carried it for remain in the indyref? Wanna say Edinborough? It carried everywhere else?

Dub in Glasgow able to answer?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

This is the first poll that gives Labour real hope that we could see a similar dynamic 2017

a) Labour lost the 2017 election.

b) It's one poll and does not represent a shift.

c) When polls favour the Torys, people disregard or come with excuses. When ONE poll shows Labour up by 2 points, all of a sudden faith in polls has been restored

Quite unbelievable.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

a) Labour lost the 2017 election.

And yet there's your hero, Boris, saying over and over again that this election three years ahead of time was absolutely necessary because the Tories (the winners, if Labour were the losers) couldn't get legislation passed.

To quote another Great Leader of our time: "so much winning ..." :pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

a) Labour lost the 2017 election.

.

The 2017 election was a diaster for the Tories as it produced a hung parliament. That is a General Election in 2015, 2017 and now 2019 for something that is meant to be every 5 years. The Tories don't want to put the Brexit question to the people again because they cannot change their mind but now want to do it by proxy using the discredited FPTP system

McGiver

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

I would like to point out that laissez faire free marketers are not in any way moderate.

You claim that corbyn is neo-Marxist. Your claim is that he is a extremist, yet its. Laughable considering you hold extreme Views yourself.

The thing is that this is a shared theme with the US.

US and UK are so much on the right that even normal European style social democracy (think Germany, or Austria) is considered Communist (Sanders in the US according to Fox & Trump) or Neo-marxist (Corbyn in the UK according to gutter press & Johnson)...

That's how much out of touch they are.

ArmaniJeanss

Interesting 'Wales only' poll via YouGov as well.
Decent change to Labour since previous figure (first week of November).

Labour: 38% (+9)
Conservatives: 32% (+4)
Plaid Cymru: 11% (-1)
Liberal Democrats: 9% (-3)
Brexit Party: 8% (-7)
Greens: 1% (-2)
Others: 1 (no change)

Labour did win Wales by 15 points in 2017 though, so still a fair bit to go to be 'par'. But should at least incentivise the people on the ground.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-11-25/welsh-labour-increases-poll-lead-but-still-has-seats-at-risk-in-election/

McGiver

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Free markets are an imaginary construct in the context of Brexit. What'll happen is that state assets will be sold off to insiders. "Kleptocracy" would be more appropriate.

Exactly, free market, or capitalism doesn't really exist anymore. Maybe Singapore, but there it requires a) small size/city state and b) one-party government.

This is all about corporatism just pretending to be capitalism.

corporatism = government works with the corporations, with them and for them, gives advantage to them as opposed to small business, socialise losses and privatise profits

A Dub in Glasgo

McGiver wrote: »

By the way, did anyone calculate the impact of English residents in Scotland?
For both indyRef and Brexit. I believe there are something like 13% of the voting base.

I wouldn't be surprised if this has significant impact on both referenda.
I.e. in reality I think Scottish voters are at least +5% much more Remain and IndyRef than what the results showed.

So you're talking 50% pro-independence and 67% pro-remain.

I remember seeing some poll after the referendum which identified that a big majority of English people in Scotland voted No

I thought it was Ashcroft polls but it does not appear to be it

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2014/09/scotland-voted/

Letwin_Larry

last week we had ex Tory PM John Major criticizing the current Tory leader.
Now today Tony Blair refuses to endorse Jeremy Corbyn.

truly we are living in strange times indeed.

Strazdas

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Interesting 'Wales only' poll via YouGov as well.
Decent change to Labour since previous figure (first week of November).

Labour: 38% (+9)
Conservatives: 32% (+4)
Plaid Cymru: 11% (-1)
Liberal Democrats: 9% (-3)
Brexit Party: 8% (-7)
Greens: 1% (-2)
Others: 1 (no change)

Labour did win Wales by 15 points in 2017 though, so still a fair bit to go to be 'par'. But should at least incentivise the people on the ground.

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2019-11-25/welsh-labour-increases-poll-lead-but-still-has-seats-at-risk-in-election/

That poll would suggest Wales is now strongly pro-Remain.

Joe_ Public

I dont believe them on this. The explanation that it was done to save time doesn't make any sense and is an insult to viewers' intelligence.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1198968230955622400

A Dub in Glasgo

The BBC are lying through their teeth, they have form for it

Joe_ Public

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The BBC are lying through their teeth, they have form for it

Exactly. We're supposed to believe the edited footage from the cenotaph last week was due to lads being up all night editing and making a mistake through exhaustion and then, a week later, another flimsy excuse for another dodgy edit. Who they trying to fool?

liamtech

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I dont believe them on this. The explanation that it was done to save time doesn't make any sense and is an insult to viewers' intelligence.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1198968230955622400

Yes we edited out the

• fact that Boris kept repeating the same old tired slogan of 'Get Brexit Done'
• and the fact that he was rightly ridiculed, and laughed at by the entire audience

This was done for TIME REASONS and DEFINITELY not in a biased way at all

In other news

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1209034/Election-2019-News-BBC-Jeremy-Corbyn-Brexit-Labour-neutral

laughable