General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

liamtech

https://news.sky.com/story/chief-rabbi-accuses-corbyn-of-failure-of-leadership-over-antisemitism-response-11870412

Crazy Stuff going on now - i used to think Ireland was the country where religion would constantly seek to influence State Policy or elections

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/chief-rabbi-accuses-corbyn-of-failure-of-leadership-over-antisemitism-response-11870412

Crazy Stuff going on now - i used to think Ireland was the country where religion would constantly seek to influence State Policy or elections

What's crazy is for a mainstream party to have an open suppurating sore of anti-Semitism and to do precious little to curb that racist disease.

All you're concerned about, it seems, is how it'll affect the Labour vote.

Who cares for the Jews, is what your response amounts to.

Pretty much part of the problem with the Labour Party as it now stands.

In a word, shameful.

BonnieSituation

liamtech wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/chief-rabbi-accuses-corbyn-of-failure-of-leadership-over-antisemitism-response-11870412

Crazy Stuff going on now - i used to think Ireland was the country where religion would constantly seek to influence State Policy or elections

Well they still have a State religion in the UK...

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

What's crazy is for a mainstream party to have an open suppurating sore of anti-Semitism and to do precious little to curb that racist disease.

All you're concerned about, it seems, is how it'll affect the Labour vote.

Who cares for the Jews, is what your response amounts to.

Pretty much part of the problem with the Labour Party as it now stands.

In a word, shameful.

Firstly i should point out that this post was not aimed specifically at you Eskimo - i just noticed it on SKY news and posted it accordingly - THAT SAID im happy to respond

I am an Atheist and support a secular society as being the best way to curb the influence of often Bigoted Religious 'organizations' who seek to influence the electorate, at election time - or during referendums. Frankly i had enough of Religious influence on politics in this country - From the first Abortion Ref in the 80s, (go back further to the Mother and Child Scheme) - to the new 'evolved' christian groups like the Iona Institute during the Marriage Equality, and Abortion referendums. They behave disgracefully in Disguising Homophobia in terms of marriage being 'all about family', and attacking a women's right to make decisions on her own body. Frankly i make no apologies for my position - that is, secularism - Religion should not influence Politics or Policy

I have no issue with the Chief Rabbi making a statement - highlighting his 'Concern' with possible Antisemitism in the Labour Party. OR he could challenge Corbyn Directly and engage in a dialogue with him - he is uniquely seated to do this in a meaningful way- although he should have done this before the election as no 'New Case' of definitive antisemitism has materialised lately

He instead - implicitly told Jewish Voters NOT to vote Labour. Playing on justifiable concerns about past pogroms, he has launched an attack on Labour and made it EXPLICITLY religious. That's WRONG in my mind -

Who cares for the Jews, is what your response amounts to.

Pretty much part of the problem with the Labour Party as it now stands.

In a word, shameful.

I take EXTREME EXCEPTION to this segment - as it is implicitly accusing me of something disgusting - a new low for this debate

This is what i said

Crazy Stuff going on now - i used to think Ireland was the country where religion would constantly seek to influence State Policy or elections

How is this shameful?? discuss - i also take no lectures from someones whos views mirror those of the British National Party

Deleted User wrote: »

3 - Culture. I believe in the existence of nation-state culture and that culture is something we should value. The more uncontrolled migration, the more diluted that culture becomes; it also makes it impossible for proper integration to exist. I for one am in favour of integration, but integration between communities can only exist if that integration happens with a reasonable number of people over a more reasonable given time. Otherwise, culture becomes diluted, destroyed and wrecked - with communities living side by side - all for the sake of meeting the needs of "diversity", which on the face of it, sounds inclusive, but by the end of it, destroys communities. And with the added complexity of Merkel's request that as many migrants from Africa and the Middle East should come, the problem as only amplified further.

The BNP will protect our unique and precious British identity from Mass Immigration, multi-culturalism, health’n’safety killjoys and globalisation.

We will:

Reassert that British law comes before any other in Britain
End public funding of organisations advocating multiculturalism

From BNP manifesto on culture
https://bnp.org.uk/policies/british-culture/

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm against nationalisation in theory, and would rather see the free market take hold as much as possible. Not always possible, but as much as possible. That's my short answer.

The UK car industry is foreign owned.
For trade deal purposes it assembles EU cars in the UK.


The bulk of UK train companies are jointly owned by EU state railway companies who use the profits to subsidise their operations back home.
The govt owns a lot of companies and will own more. Because they were run for short term profit and then walked away from.


UK water companies are foreign owned.



National Grid has opened offshore holding companies in Hong Kong and Luxembourg, while SSE has incorporated in Switzerland. Nationalisation was the excuse. But it's a handy one

How many energy companies have had their licenses revoked this year ??



Ask anyone in the UK if they think they are getting value for money for water, energy and transport. Or if they think they're being milked dry.

The "free market" isn't delivering in the UK.

Harry Palmr

The Labour apologists keep trying to play the mater down and it's precisely this attitude that has allowed the matter to become a so potent. The Chief Rabbi is not going to make an intervention like this without much thought and probably some agonising.

Good to see the BBC being held to account about it's selective twitter post editing of the Corbyn/Johnson ITV debate.

Letwin_Larry

liamtech wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/chief-rabbi-accuses-corbyn-of-failure-of-leadership-over-antisemitism-response-11870412

Crazy Stuff going on now - i used to think Ireland was the country where religion would constantly seek to influence State Policy or elections

politics in the UK has become more than a tad crazy of late.
who next? The Dalai Lama?
no not quite Mr. Heseltine is throwing his tuppence worth in,

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-tory-boris-johnson-lib-dems-vote-michael-heseltine-labour-a9217741.html

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

Firstly i should point out that this post was not aimed specifically at you Eskimo - i just noticed it on SKY news and posted it accordingly - THAT SAID im happy to respond

I have no issue with the Chief Rabbi making a statement.

He instead - implicitly told Jewish Voters NOT to vote Labour. Playing on justifiable concerns about past pogroms, he has launched an attack on Labour and made it EXPLICITLY religious. That's WRONG in my mind -

How is this shameful?? discuss - i also take no lectures from someones whos views mirror those of the British National Party

In summary,

a) The Chief Rabbi has every reason to alert his community to the dangers of a Corbyn regime. Entirely reasonable. It is now up to UK Jewry as to whether they agree with the Chief Rabbi's legitimate warning.

b) The BNP oppose immigration, specifically on ethnic grounds. I believe migration is a positive policy, only that it should be controlled - in the same way Australia or Canada does. I support the concept that if mass migration happens in any country, it may lead to integration challenges. These challenges must be avoided. Not everything in a country can be measured in terms of GDP. Cultural integration and collective identity matters, a lot.

c) The lack of condemnation of Corbyn's Labour Party for not doing enough to eliminate anti-Semitism within the ranks of the party.

You can use as much bold text as you like. I'm as yet inconvinced.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

In summary,

a) The Chief Rabbi has every reason to alert his community to the dangers of a Corbyn regime. Entirely reasonable. It is now up to UK Jewry as to whether they agree with the Chief Rabbi's legitimate warning.

b) The BNP oppose immigration, specifically on ethnic grounds. I believe migration is a positive policy, only that it should be controlled - in the same way Australia or Canada does. I support the concept that if mass migration happens in any country, it may lead to integration challenges. These challenges must be avoided. Not everything in a country can be measured in terms of GDP. Cultural integration and collective identity matters, a lot.

c) The lack of condemnation of Corbyn's Labour Party for not doing enough to eliminate anti-Semitism within the ranks of the party.

You can use as much bold text as you like. I'm as yet inconvinced.

a) - he has not alerted his community to possible antisemitism in the Labour Party - he has EXPLICITLY highlighted it being Proven - AND IMPLICITLY told Jewish Voters not to back Corbyn - that is totally beyond the pale in terms of Religious intervention in an Election

b) - regardless of what you claim to be your views - the view on Immigration damaging the Nation States culture, is not merely right wing - it is the politics of the Far Right - which is why the BNP would agree with you

c) - Labour has been condemned OVER AND OVER again for years - some cases may be warranted - others are just attacking Labour for the sake of it. On many occasions Anti-Israeli-Foreign Policy is referred to as Antisemitic

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

DO you agree with the above? is this Legislation Antisemitic?????

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

If you think Corbyn ...

There you go again: typical Tory "ooh, look - there's Corbyn!"

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't take any of the commitments seriously. ...

What I do know is this: that Johnson is committed to delivering Brexit

It's on that primary basis that I support Johnson, not some vague manifesto commitment that will never come to pass.

If you don't take any of their commitments seriously, what makes you believe that Johnson is committed to delivering Brexit?

And for bonus points, can you identify any part of Brexit that is not a vague manifesto commitment? :rolleyes:

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

a) - he has not alerted his community to possible antisemitism in the Labour Party - he has EXPLICITLY highlighted it being Proven - AND IMPLICITLY told Jewish Voters not to back Corbyn - that is totally beyond the pale in terms of Religious intervention in an Election

b) - regardless of what you claim to be your views - the view on Immigration damaging the Nation States culture, is not merely right wing - it is the politics of the Far Right - which is why the BNP would agree with you

c) - Labour has been condemned OVER AND OVER again for years - some cases may be warranted - others are just attacking Labour for the sake of it. On many occasions Anti-Israeli-Foreign Policy is referred to as Antisemitic

a) And the good Rabbi is right to do so; if I were him, I would do precisely the same. No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime.

b) Perhaps the BNP do agree with me on some issues. Maybe its membership find some common ground with you, too. Maybe I can get them to agree with me on every other issue and then perhaps the BNP would disband. I'm sure BNP members agree with me on delivering democratic results of referenda, but that doesn't make them any more like me, than it does me like them. It's just a childish point. Drop it.

c) Labour has been condemned. You're right. It's just that little action has been taken that matches that degree of condemnation. We all know that many people use anti-Israel rhetoric as a mask for anti-Jewish sentiment. Perhaps you've not encountered it. I have, and it's prevalent and disgusting.

beggars_bush

Being opposed to Israel's actions is not anti semetism

Calling the Jews a shower of c***s would be anti semetism
Buy Corbyn has never done that
It's a typical Zionist tactic to attack those who question Israeli policy.

Capt'n Midnight

L1011 wrote: »

If Scotland have to join the EU as a new entrant (e.g. post Brexit) rather than split from a pre-92 one they'll have to join the Euro and Schengen anyway.

Done to death.

The CTA is a mini-Schengen that predates the EU. Grandfathered in.


Even if they couldn't derogate from the Euro they'd still need to meet the Maastricht criteria. Sweden and Poland have been missing that for ages.

And with the vast bulk of Scottish trade being with the UK it might be handier to peg to Sterling for the time being. Just like we used to do.

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime.

I wouldnt be very happy with how the labour party has handled the issue and will require a lot of post election bridge building whatever the result. But here's the thing: thousands of jewish voters will still back labour and it is most certainly not your place to pass judgment on them for doing so.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

In summary,

a) The Chief Rabbi has every reason to alert his community to the dangers of a Corbyn regime. Entirely reasonable. It is now up to UK Jewry as to whether they agree with the Chief Rabbi's legitimate warning.

b) The BNP oppose immigration, specifically on ethnic grounds. I believe migration is a positive policy, only that it should be controlled - in the same way Australia or Canada does. I support the concept that if mass migration happens in any country, it may lead to integration challenges. These challenges must be avoided. Not everything in a country can be measured in terms of GDP. Cultural integration and collective identity matters, a lot.

c) The lack of condemnation of Corbyn's Labour Party for not doing enough to eliminate anti-Semitism within the ranks of the party.

You can use as much bold text as you like. I'm as yet inconvinced.

Despite the Chief Rabbi's opinion it would seem that not all Jews view Corbyn as antisemitic. Perhaps they are just naif fools who do not understand politics or the dangers.
Naif fools like Noam Chomsky.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/noam-chomsky-jeremy-corbyn-vote-labour-british-general-election-2017-uk-a7729526.html

Capt'n Midnight

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Free markets are an imaginary construct in the context of Brexit. What'll happen is that state assets will be sold off to insiders. "Kleptocracy" would be more appropriate.

Indeed

And the best predictor of the future is the past.

Westminster City Council (WCC) sold three cemeteries, three lodges, one flat, a crematorium and over 12 acres of prime development land in London for a total of 85 pence.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

a) And the good Rabbi is right to do so; if I were him, I would do precisely the same. No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime.

b) Perhaps the BNP do agree with me on some issues. Maybe its membership find some common ground with you, too. Maybe I can get them to agree with me on every other issue and then perhaps the BNP would disband. I'm sure BNP members agree with me on delivering democratic results of referenda, but that doesn't make them any more like me, than it does me like them. It's just a childish point. Drop it.

c) Labour has been condemned. You're right. It's just that little action has been taken that matches that degree of condemnation. We all know that many people use anti-Israel rhetoric as a mask for anti-Jewish sentiment. Perhaps you've not encountered it. I have, and it's prevalent and disgusting.

So is this Antisemitism then?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

Your positions are extreme Eskimo - No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime. - why? why not? are you honestly suggesting British Jews would be in danger, in a UK run by Labour?

It's just a childish point. Drop it. - i will not drop it- you have articulated a FAR RIGHT opinion on the nations states culture being eroded by Immigration - simple as

We all know that many people use anti-Israel rhetoric as a mask for anti-Jewish sentiment. - possibly but the reverse is true too - People who criticize Israeli Foreign Policy are OFTEN attacked and accused of being Antisemitism -

I suggested this before, but in order to understand this situation you should familiarize yourself with the works of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXS3tmZrcU

But if you could address the issues in any case i would appreciate it

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Despite the Chief Rabbi's opinion it would seem that not all Jews view Corbyn as antisemitic. Perhaps they are just naif fools who do not understand politics or the dangers.
Naif fools like Noam Chomsky.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/noam-chomsky-jeremy-corbyn-vote-labour-british-general-election-2017-uk-a7729526.html

I'm sorry, but I won't have that.

Chomsky is indeed of Jewish background. He's a secular Jew who believes the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was a mistake, and that Western civilisation is responsible for almost every crime committed against it.

Dare I say, he's held as a religious figure in political circles.

I heavily disagree with Chomsky.

Just because one atheist Jew is pro-Corbyn should not be an argument against uniting Jews against Corbyn.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

In summary,

a) The Chief Rabbi has every reason to alert his community to the dangers of a Corbyn regime.

What are these dangers?

Specifically?

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

So is this Antisemitism then?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

Your positions are extreme Eskimo - No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime. - why? why not? are you honestly suggesting British Jews would be in danger, in a UK run by Labour?

i will not drop it- you have articulated a FAR RIGHT opinion on the nations states culture being eroded by Immigration - simple a

Can't you see the inconsistency with which you speak?

One the one hand, you call me "far-right" and that my views coalesce with the BNP.

The next, I'm extreme for supporting the Jewish people against racism.

You really can't have it both ways.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I won't have that.

Chomsky is indeed of Jewish background. He's a secular Jew who believes the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was a mistake, and that Western civilisation is responsible for almost every crime committed against it.

Dare I say, he's held as a religious figure in political circles.

I heavily disagree with Chomsky.

Just because one atheist Jew is pro-Corbyn should not be an argument against uniting Jews against Corbyn.

So i) he's the wrong kind of Jew as far as you're concerned, and ii) you think think he's the only Jew who supports Corbyn's Labour?

Where on earth does one start with this claptrap?

Do you think there should be a movement to unite not just all Muslims, but all religious ethnic and religious minorities against Johnson's Tories?

I presume you do, yes?

ILoveYourVibes

liamtech wrote: »

So is this Antisemitism then?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

Your positions are extreme Eskimo - No Jewish voter can, in good conscience, deliver a vote for a Corbyn regime. - why? why not? are you honestly suggesting British Jews would be in danger, in a UK run by Labour?

It's just a childish point. Drop it. - i will not drop it- you have articulated a FAR RIGHT opinion on the nations states culture being eroded by Immigration - simple as

We all know that many people use anti-Israel rhetoric as a mask for anti-Jewish sentiment. - possibly but the reverse is true too - People who criticize Israeli Foreign Policy are OFTEN attacked and accused of being Antisemitism -

I suggested this before, but in order to understand this situation you should familiarize yourself with the works of John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzXS3tmZrcU

But if you could address the issues in any case i would appreciate it

Corbyn is anti semitic. The groups he mixes with are akin to him meeting Gerry Adams.

However the tories are also anti semitic. Being ANTI ISRAEL is not the same as objecting to Israeli policy on some matters. Being anti israel is being anti semitic. Criticism of certain israeli policy towards palestine is not. I rarely hear that from labour. The basic narrative is Israel is evil.

Both palestine and Israel have done wrong and need to be humble.

Saying that ...labour policy is what i would vote for.

The tories are also anti semitic. It rarely gets the same treatment in the press though.

People will vote hopefully for the policy they want.

The tories cannot be trusted.

Yes many jewish voters will back labour. And some of them will also critize labour about its attitude to not just jews but women lbgt etc.

Labour hopefully will listen and be a bridge for muslims and jews and palestinians and israelis.

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

So i) he's the wrong kind of Jew as far as you're concerned, and ii) you think think he's the only Jew who supports Corbyn's Labour?

Where on earth does one start with this claptrap?

It's akin to a gay Muslim voting for a homophobic regime that vows in its manifesto to kill gay Muslims.

It's the same type of, to borrow a phrase, "claptap".

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I won't have that.

Chomsky is indeed of Jewish background. He's a secular Jew who believes the creation of the Jewish State of Israel was a mistake, and that Western civilisation is responsible for almost every crime committed against it.

Dare I say, he's held as a religious figure in political circles.

I heavily disagree with Chomsky.

Just because one atheist Jew is pro-Corbyn should not be an argument against uniting Jews against Corbyn.

It is completely irrelevant if you will 'have it' or not.

Noam Chomsky is a well respected commentator on politics and has been for generations. He is also Jewish so better placed than you to understand antisemitism and he is certainly more experienced than you in facing it.

Here's another man who would know an awful lot about antisemitism and he also supports Corbyn. His name is Norman Finkelstein.

https://williambowles.info/2019/08/07/norman-finkelstein-on-corbyn-and-anti-semitism-in-the-labour-party/

Capt'n Midnight

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Johnsons latest pledge - like the phantom new 40 hospitals they're going to deliver 50,000 NEW nurses by 2024.

Except...and there's always an except...that number includes 18,000 who would have been expected to leave to instead be retained. So by being simply retained they'll consider them as NEW.

How do you convince 18,000 people to stay when between the NHS and Social Care there is a vacancy rate of 8%, with over 200,000 vacancies ?

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is completely irrelevant if you will 'have it' or not.

Noam Chomsky is a well respected commentator on politics and has been for generations. He is also Jewish so better placed than you to understand antisemitism and he is certainly more experienced than you in facing it.

Here's another man who would know an awful lot about antisemitism and he also supports Corbyn. His name is Norman Finkelstein.

https://williambowles.info/2019/08/07/norman-finkelstein-on-corbyn-and-anti-semitism-in-the-labour-party/

It's perfectly possible to be ethnically Jewish, and grow up to hate the state of Israel - just as many siblings grow up to hate their parents.

It happens, but it doesn't make that minority right.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

It's akin to a gay Muslim voting for a homophobic regime that vows in its manifesto to kill gay Muslims.

It's the same type of, to borrow a phrase, "claptap".

Am I seriously reading this?

Are you insinuating that a Corbyn lead government would persecute Jews?
Have you really gone there?!?!

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Am I seriously reading this?

Are you insinuating that a Corbyn lead government would persecute Jews?
Have you really gone there?!?!

No. I'm making the comparison that it would be as ridiculous for a Zionist Jew, of which there are many, to vote for Corbynism, as it would be for the situation I outlined in my previous post.

I'm not making a direct comparison between Corbyn and Hitler or some other sinister Salafist Muslim figure, but the principle of anti-Semitism itself.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

It's akin to a gay Muslim voting for a homophobic regime that vows in its manifesto to kill gay Muslims.

It's the same type of, to borrow a phrase, "claptap".

No, it isn't.

Is Noam Chomsky "the wrong kind of Jew" in your eyes?

Are the Jewish Voice For Labour "the wrong kind of Jews" in your eyes?

It seems to me that Jewish supporters of Corbyn are possibly the biggest victims of anti-Semitism in British politics.

The abuse Corbyn-supporting Jews take on a regular basis is vile.

Do you condemn that?

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

No, it isn't.

Is Noam Chomsky "the wrong kind of Jew" in your eyes?

Are the Jewish Voice For Labour "the wrong kind of Jews" in your eyes?

It seems to me that Jewish supporters of Corbyn are possibly the biggest victims of anti-Semitism in British politics.

The abuse Corbyn-supporting Jews take on a regular basis is vile.

Do you condemn that?

No true Jewish voter, who supports the State of Israel, can vote for a Corbyn regime.

As I said, it's as ridiculous as I - a gay male - voting for a regime that is against my very existence. It just wouldn't make sense. If I were to vote for a party that did damage to the LGBT community, I would shame that community with that very act of voting.

Jewish voters should not be condemned, or abused in any way, for voting Corybn. But it just doesn't make sense for a believing Jew to vote Corbyn, as per my example above.