General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't you see the inconsistency with which you speak?

One the one hand, you call me "far-right" and that my views coalesce with the BNP.

The next, I'm extreme for supporting the Jewish people against racism.

You really can't have it both ways.

No it really is both ways actually

- and by the way you are NOT 'supporting the Jewish people against racism ' - you are simply taking any opportunity you get to spout unsubstantiated rubbish about Labour, and/Or Anyone who is opposed to Brexit and the Torys - it isnt defending anyone Eskimo - its your willingness to keep arguing, with very little evidence, and when contrary evidence is presented, you denounce it - as not meaning anything

And by the way there is no 'True' right wing factor that exists across every spectrum of the far right

• The BNP are Far Right
• Netanyahu is Right/Far-Right
• Boris Johnson is right wing
• Isis and extreme Islamism is arguably right wing

And given the way you have argued it is clear, in fact you have openly stated, that you are right wing

Deleted User wrote: »

No true Jewish voter, who supports the State of Israel, can vote for a Corbyn regime.

As I said, it's as ridiculous as I - a gay male - voting for a regime that is against my very existence. It just wouldn't make sense. If I were to vote for a party that did damage to the LGBT community, I would shame that community with that very act of voting.

Jewish voters should not be condemned, or abused in any way, for voting Corybn. But it just doesn't make sense for a believing Jew to vote Corbyn, as per my example above.

And there we have it highlighted above - criticize Israel - your antisemitic - its absolute nonsense - i expect you will undoubtedly move back over to the referendum thread - or perhaps Scottish Independence in a short while - there might be remainers over there too Eskimo!

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I'm making the comparison that it would be as ridiculous for a Zionist Jew, of which there are many, to vote for Corbynism, as it would be for the situation I outlined in my previous post.

Corbyn isn't a Zionist, so why would Zionists of any religion vote for him if UK government support for Israeli government policy is a big concern of theirs?

Religion is irrelevant to that issue - he's taken a particular geopolitical position which supports Palestinian statehood, which Israel opposes.

That's not anti-Semitism or anything remotely resembling it.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

• The BNP are Far Right
• Netanyahu is Right/Far-Right
• Boris Johnson is right wing
• Isis and extreme Islamism is arguably right wing

And given the way you have argued it is clear, in fact you have openly stated, that you are right wing

Can you outline the similarities I have with ISIS, the BNP and Netanyahu?

Not rhetorically, but in some meaty, juicy detail.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

No true Jewish voter, who supports the State of Israel, can vote for a Corbyn regime.

As I said, it's as ridiculous as I - a gay male - voting for a regime that is against my very existence. It just wouldn't make sense. If I were to vote for a party that did damage to the LGBT community, I would shame that community with that very act of voting.

Jewish voters should not be condemned, or abused in any way, for voting Corybn. But it just doesn't make sense for a believing Jew to vote Corbyn, as per my example above.

You say that "no true Jewish voter, who supports the state of Israel" can vote for Corbyn.

What if they're a true Jewish voter who opposes Israeli government policy?

In your view, can a true Jewish voter vote for Corbyn?

AllForIt

With the Maureen Lipman commercial against Labour and now the Chief Rabbie's comments, I find it deeply deeply ironic that the Jews are showing what power they have, how capable they seem to be in organizing themselves against Corybn. I mean you don't have an equivalent in the Tory party in relation to Islamaphobia. If you were a UK citizen would you not be concerned that the tiny Jewish element in the country could tip the balance in a GE.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I'm making the comparison that it would be as ridiculous for a Zionist Jew, of which there are many, to vote for Corbynism, as it would be for the situation I outlined in my previous post.

I'm not making a direct comparison between Corbyn and Hitler or some other sinister Salafist Muslim figure, but the principle of anti-Semitism itself.

You did not clarify you were referring to Jews who are also Zionist. You simply said 'Jews'.
Then Noam Chomsky was the wrong kind of Jew apparently (how ironic that a 'Goy' is pronouncing on who is and is not a 'proper; Jew!), now you are talking about Zionist Jews as if there being 'many' gives them some sort of role as speaking for all Jews.
Well, they don't. Not all Jews are Zionists. Many Jews are highly critical of the policies being pursued by the State of Israel - many of these Jews are even Israeli.

Being Jewish does not = Zionist.
Being opposed to Israel does not = antisemitic
https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/zionism/

It is a sad state of affairs that the 'best' Tory supporters can do is scream 'antisemitic'.

AllForIt

AllForIt wrote: »

With the Maureen Lipman commercial against Labour and now the Chief Rabbie's comments, I find it deeply deeply ironic that the Jews are showing what power they have, how capable they seem to be in organizing themselves against Corybn. I mean you don't have an equivalent in the Tory party in relation to Islamaphobia. If you were a UK citizen would you not be concerned that the tiny Jewish element in the country could tip the balance in a GE.

That is classic anti-Semitism.

It refers to "the Jews". Replace that with "the Muslims" or "the Christians", and you can see what I mean.

"What power they have" - a reference to the conspiracy that Jews "control the world".

"How capable they are" - referring to an organized effort of Jews to manipulate the election; more conspiracy.

How a "tiny Jewish element" could "tip the balance" - in other words, how they have disproportionate power and could yield it in their own interests.

That post is characteristic anti-Semitic language, veiled as it often is. I'm shocked and horrified that I'm the only person here to have identified it.

If that type of language were used against any other minority, it would be called out - and rightly so - here and now. Because it's "the Jews", it isn't and won't be.

Shameful.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

As I said, it's as ridiculous as I - a gay male - voting for a regime that is against my very existence. It just wouldn't make sense. If I were to vote for a party that did damage to the LGBT community, I would shame that community with that very act of voting.

Damage like Section 28?

Remind me again which party brought that in?

Could it have been the Conservatives? Why yes. It was the Conservatives.

I wonder who repealed it? Was it the Labour Party? Why yes. It was the Labour Party.

And did the Conservatives support Repealing this law that 'did damage to the LGBT community'? Why no, they tried very very hard to keep it on the statute books.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you outline the similarities I have with ISIS, the BNP and Netanyahu?

Not rhetorically, but in some meaty, juicy detail.

:rolleyes: - the whole point i was making was that exists NO BROAD agreement, or common goal among the right wing factions, across the globe

Netanyahu is right wing - Hitler was right wing- David Dukes is Right wing - i doubt these people would agree on anything Eskimo

I never said you had anything specifically in common with Isis - They are an extreme right Islamo-facist organization that wanted to create an Islamic Empire - they are right wing within their society

You do MOST DEFINITELY have much in common with the BNP, on their view of the damage caused to nation state culture, by immigration

And given what you have said about TRUE JEWS, and NEEDING TO REJECT CORBYN - i would argue that you and Benjamin Netanyahu would clearly get along - your views are very much in line

As is usual too, you havent actually replied to this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

Is this Antisemitism?

You also repeatedly ignore the VOTE LEAVE pdf which discusses remaining in the Single Market - it really is your true and tried method - a politicians method arguably - answer what you want, ignore the rest

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Damage like Section 28?

Remind me again which party brought that in?

Could it have been the Conservatives? Why yes. It was the Conservatives.

I wonder who repealed it? Was it the Labour Party? Why yes. It was the Labour Party.

And did the Conservatives support Repealing this law that 'did damage to the LGBT community'? Why no, they tried very very hard to keep it on the statute books.

Prime Minister Johnson, and the Cameronian Conservatives, brought in gay marriage when it wasn't even in the manifesto.

Enough of your bravado. I insist upon it.

sid waddell

AllForIt wrote: »

With the Maureen Lipman commercial against Labour and now the Chief Rabbie's comments, I find it deeply deeply ironic that the Jews are showing what power they have, how capable they seem to be in organizing themselves against Corybn. I mean you don't have an equivalent in the Tory party in relation to Islamaphobia. If you were a UK citizen would you not be concerned that the tiny Jewish element in the country could tip the balance in a GE.

British Jews are as British as British Christians or British atheists or British anything else, they're British and have a perfect right to give their opinions as does anybody else.

However, in my view the issue of Labour and anti-Semtism has undoubtedly been weaponised.

It's the weaponisation of anti-Semitism and the complete double standards as regards how anti-Semitism in other parties and in society in general is treated that is the issue.

Anti-semitism from those who support Israel's policy as regards Palestine is freely accepted by the same people who vilify Corbyn.

It is unmistakeably a deliberate and concerted smear campaign and it is clearly because Corbyn opposes Israeli government as regards Palestine.

This is tragic as anti-Semitism is genuinely a cancer in society and using the issue as a stick to beat a particular politician with is an insult to the real fight against anti-Semitism.

That's the long and short of it.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

That is classic anti-Semitism.

It refers to "the Jews". Replace that with "the Muslims" or "the Christians", and you can see what I mean.

"What power they have" - a reference to the conspiracy that Jews "control the world".

"How capable they are" - referring to an organized effort of Jews to manipulate the election; more conspiracy.

How a "tiny Jewish element" could "tip the balance" - in other words, how they have disproportionate power and could yield it in their own interests.

That post is characteristic anti-Semitic language, veiled as it often is. I'm shocked and horrified that I'm the only person here to have identified it.

If that type of language were used against any other minority, it would be called out - and rightly so - here and now. Because it's "the Jews", it isn't and won't be.

Shameful.

I'm shocked and horrified that I'm the only person here to have identified it.

You are the only person to identify it because it is NOT antisemitism - it is arguably a description of Lobbying as covered by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in there theses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

It is about the demonstrable influence Israel lobbyists have in several countries most notably america - where a relatively small lobby can whip up outrage and CAN change the course of elections - this is POLITICAL SCIENCE - not racism

Get you facts right Eskimo

sid waddell

@eskimohunt

Jacob Rees Mogg has used "Soros" as a dog whistle.

Michael Gove conflated all British Jews with Israel two weeks ago.

The Tory candidate for Aberdeen South had to quit last week when he was outed as a Holocaust denier.

The Tory candidate for Leeds North East claimed that British Jews who travelled to Israel came back "braainwashed".

That's four of their MPs or candidates off the top of my head who have been engaged in anti-Semitic rhetoric. I can dig up some more if you like.

Does this make the Tories an institutionally anti-Semitic party?

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

I'm shocked and horrified that I'm the only person here to have identified it.

You are the only person to identify it because it is NOT antisemitism - it is arguably a description of Lobbying as covered by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in there theses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

It is about the demonstrable influence Israel lobbyists have in several countries most notably america - where a relatively small lobby can whip up outrage and CAN change the course of elections - this is POLITICAL SCIENCE - not racism

Get you facts right Eskimo

Once we start talking about "Jewish lobby", we're delving deep into the crevices, bowels, and sewers of anti-Semitism.

I forego any further comments on this subject, unless and until it returns to a subject devoid of racism in itself - that of Brexit and the General Election of December 2019.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Prime Minister Johnson, and the Cameronian Conservatives, brought in gay marriage when it wasn't even in the manifesto.

Enough of your bravado. I insist upon it.

Oh dear. Have I upset you by pointing out the homophobic legislation brought in by the Conservative Party and how Tory Peer Baroness Young blocked it being repealed in 2000 - which future PM Theresa May described as a 'victory for common sense'.
Or how in 2003 Section 28 was finally repealed only after a backlash forced Conservative leadership to allow a free vote.

Now there is a PM who calls gay men 'tank topped bum boys' and is still refusing to apologise.

It would appear that you do support a party that 'did damage to the LGBT community' and still contains many members who could be described as homophobic.

Bravado indeed.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now there is a PM who calls gay men 'tank topped bum boys' and is still refusing to apologise.

As a gay man involved with the community, I've made similar sexual remarks about the LGBT community - in jest of course - and so, can forgive Prime Minister Johnson for his remarks, though I don't think he meant them with any serious degree of malice.

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

Once we start talking about "Jewish lobby", we're delving deep into the crevices, bowels, and sewers of anti-Semitism.

I forego any further comments on this subject, unless and until it returns to a subject devoid of racism in itself - that of Brexit and the General Election of December 2019.

I agree that the term "Jewish lobby" is anti-Semitic.

The term "Israel lobby" isn't.

On more than one occasion you've referred to "true Jewish voters" and how they can't vote for Corbyn.

What is a true Jew?

Saying that all Jews are and should be of one mind and if they aren't, they can't be a "true Jew" is quite anti-Semitic, isn't it?

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Once we start talking about "Jewish lobby", we're delving deep into the crevices, bowels, and sewers of anti-Semitism.

I forego any further comments on this subject, unless and until it returns to a subject devoid of racism in itself - that of Brexit and the General Election of December 2019.

I NEVER SAID JEWISH LOBBYING - I referred to the ISRAEL LOBBY - which is a well known term - addressed fantastically by the above authors i cited

And one of the methods used to damage opponents of SAID LOBBY - is to criticize all its opponents as being AntiSemitic - just as YOU are doing

Eskimo this is outrageous behavior - i would argue that you have used antisemitism accusations to Attack Labour - and attack anyone who doesnt like Brexit

And BTW - the involvement of the UKs Chief Rabbi in the election makes this an election topic

sid waddell

Deleted User wrote: »

As a gay man involved with the community, I've made similar sexual remarks about the LGBT community - in jest of course - and so, can forgive Prime Minister Johnson for his remarks, though I don't think he meant them with any serious degree of malice.

So your standards are laughably inconsistent - Johnson can ridicule gay men for being gay and get away scot free with it, while to the very best of my knowledge nobody has actually ever brought up any actual evidence of Corbyn being an anti-Semite, yet you see no problem in smearing him as one anyway.

Never mind Johnson's racist remarks and his complete failure, complete refusal in fact, to deal with Islamophobia and indeed racism in general in the Conservative party, which you haven't dealt with.

liamtech

sid waddell wrote: »

I agree that the term "Jewish lobby" is anti-Semitic.

The term "Israel lobby" isn't.

On more than one occasion you've referred to "true Jewish voters" and how they can't vote for Corbyn.

What is a true Jew?

Saying that all Jews are and should be of one mind and if they aren't, they can't be a "true Jew" is quite anti-Semitic, isn't it?

This isnt about Jews, or Lobbying, or Antisemitism - This is about Eskimo being Pro Brexit - and Pro Tory - and being 1000000% against anyone that isn't inline with these views :rolleyes:

It is becoming painful to read this - and thank you for pointing out that i referred to the ISRAEL lobby -

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

As a gay man involved with the community, I've made similar sexual remarks about the LGBT community - in jest of course - and so, can forgive Prime Minister Johnson for his remarks, though I don't think he meant them with any serious degree of malice.

If you think a straight man writing in a right-wing paper calling gay men 'bum boys' is just a haw haw funny but Corbyn is an antisemite for far more nebulous reasons that I fear you have been heavily blinkered by your ideology.

I note you also completely ignored the blatant ad institutionalized homophobia within the Conservative Party.

As a Lesbian I cannot understand how any member of the LGBT community could vote for a party that has a history of doing damage to my community (and I lived in the UK when Section 28 was brought in so I know what I am speaking about and how it fed the hysteria already there due to AIDS - It was kicking the Gays when we were down.)

However, I would never say that an LGBT person shouldn't vote Conservative if that is the way their politics lie or try and insinuate that by voting Tory the are not a 'proper' gay, whatever that is.
I would ask that they acknowledge that their politics are of more importance to them than any 'LGBT Community'.

Kermit.de.frog

The vote on the WA will be held before Christmas according to BJ it says in tomorrow's Telegraph.

That's if the Tories get a majority.

In practice it means it may be all over for remainers within the next few weeks with the UK certain to leave on January 31st.

Arguments from then on will be from the position of the UK outside the EU.

LuckyLloyd

https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/1198998239128805377?s=21

Bizarre and amateurish attempt by a Tory politician to set up a “spontaneous” doorstep interview.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not turn this thread into an Israel-Palestine discussion. Posts on this subject will be deleted.

Letwin_Larry

some polls seem to suggest the gap between the 2 main parties is closing.
could the UK electorate be having 2nd thoughts? is the reality of voting for a Tory Brexit starting to dawn on them?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/uk-politics-poll-tracker-general-20070947

ArmaniJeanss

Last week

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Polls getting worse for Labour. I'd been doing some straw-clutching at how things developed in 2017 but we are into the period now where they had started to turn towards Labour.

Kantar give Tories an 18 point lead.

Tory lead now down to 11 in latest Kantar poll, a sizeable 7 point swing in a week. Though the 18 point lead was an outlier.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election-poll-kantar/conservatives-poll-lead-over-labour-narrows-to-11-points-kantar-poll-idUKKBN1Y00R2

Labour have managed to move the discussion away from where they are weak (Brexit) into actual policy discussion, where they are reasonably strong.

CelticRambler

Gove on Sky there a little while ago, doing his best impression of eskimohunt!
Scotland should stay in the UK because "Stronger Together" sez he. So why not stay in the EU, coz "stronger together" asks Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...
Scotland is a failed state, couldn't possibly survive outside the UK, sez he; needs English money to keep it afloat. Iceland and Norway do OK, sez Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...
Why do you keep lying, sez Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...

I know there are many who argue that Corbyn is a weak leader, but I don't remember anyone else ever getting into the heads and under the skin of the Tories as much as he has.

jonnogael

If Twitter is anything to go by it's a victory for Labour, meanwhile in the real world.................................

Joe_ Public

CelticRambler wrote: »

Gove on Sky there a little while ago, doing his best impression of eskimohunt!
Scotland should stay in the UK because "Stronger Together" sez he. So why not stay in the EU, coz "stronger together" asks Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...
Scotland is a failed state, couldn't possibly survive outside the UK, sez he; needs English money to keep it afloat. Iceland and Norway do OK, sez Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...
Why do you keep lying, sez Adam Boulton. Hey look - Corbyn, sez he ...

I know there are many who argue that Corbyn is a weak leader, but I don't remember anyone else ever getting into the heads and under the skin of the Tories as much as he has.

I would say after andrew neil, boulton is the toughest interviewer to get away with waffle. Annoys me sometimes but great for details a lot of questioners miss and has a very quiet, almost catatonic delivery that sometimes puts his subjects off their guard.

markodaly

jonnogael wrote: »

If Twitter is anything to go by it's a victory for Labour, meanwhile in the real world.................................

This thread as well in fairness, but the general commentary in this thread should not be a barometer of what is happening on the ground over there.