General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Bannasidhe

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Problem for corbyn, though, is he cant push back against this criticism in any way without inflaming it and deepening the wound. Thats partly his own fault for not getting to grips with the issue sooner. Damage limitation is the best he can hope for and i dont think it'll be ultimately all that bad. Though they could potentially keep stoking it up against him right up to polling day with a willing media to help them so hard to be certain about it.

I agree Corbyn should have been seen to do more sooner but he being an old school 'consensus' type I can understand why he didn't. 'Understand' only because I spent far too much time in meetings in London in the 80s with people like Corbyn (and the man himself) metaphorically (and sometimes literally) banging my head off the table trying to get a final fecking decision. We used to call the inevitable 'is everyone happy? Shall we just go around again' at every single bloody meeting 'processus Interruptus'. Still drives me insane.

I honestly don't think it is the 'killer blow' the Tories hope it will be.
I think most British people just don't see antisemitism as a major issue that affects them. Sad to say the vast majority are not that bothered about a group of people who in total number slightly over the current population of Camden out of a total population of over 66m. They are concerned about the NHS, about housing, cost of living, education, childcare, job security etc. And yes- Brexit.

Strazdas

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree Corbyn should have been seen to do more sooner but he being an old school 'consensus' type I can understand why he didn't. 'Understand' only because I spent far too much time in meetings in London in the 80s with people like Corbyn (and the man himself) metaphorically (and sometimes literally) banging my head off the table trying to get a final fecking decision. We used to call the inevitable 'is everyone happy? Shall we just go around again' at every single bloody meeting 'processus Interruptus'. Still drives me insane.

I honestly don't think it is the 'killer blow' the Tories hope it will be.
I think most British people just don't see antisemitism as a major issue that affects them. Sad to say the vast majority are not that bothered about a group of people who in total number slightly over the current population of Camden out of a total population of over 66m. They are concerned about the NHS, about housing, cost of living, education, childcare, job security etc. And yes- Brexit.

Interesting point. Also, some of Johnson's utterances on Muslims and black people have been outrageous and yet it has hardly damaged him at all.

sid waddell

Strazdas wrote: »

Interesting point. Also, some of Johnson's utterances on Muslims and black people have been outrageous and yet it has hardly damaged him at all.

There are no votes to be gained from engaging in anti-Semitism.

The sad truth is there are a hell of a lot of votes to be gained from generalised xenophobia, and particularly Islamophobia.

That is the case because it has been allowed to be the case by politicians and the media.

Joe_ Public

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree Corbyn should have been seen to do more sooner but he being an old school 'consensus' type I can understand why he didn't. 'Understand' only because I spent far too much time in meetings in London in the 80s with people like Corbyn (and the man himself) metaphorically (and sometimes literally) banging my head off the table trying to get a final fecking decision. We used to call the inevitable 'is everyone happy? Shall we just go around again' at every single bloody meeting 'processus Interruptus'. Still drives me insane.

I honestly don't think it is the 'killer blow' the Tories hope it will be.
I think most British people just don't see antisemitism as a major issue that affects them. Sad to say the vast majority are not that bothered about a group of people who in total number slightly over the current population of Camden out of a total population of over 66m. They are concerned about the NHS, about housing, cost of living, education, childcare, job security etc. And yes- Brexit.

I think the issue was that these allegations started surfacing around the time after the leadership heave against him in 2016 and constant rumours of more coming and it was too easy to conflate the two. So they assumed they'd simply disappear once corbyn asserted his authority but that was a miscalculation and one they are still paying for.

On the broader point i tend to agree. Its almost got to the stage of overkill now with talk of "thousands" of cases of antisemitism in the labour party alone which just sounds like wilful exaggeration. Corbyn clearly has significant support among sections of the jewish community too so that might help restore some of the balance.

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

There are no votes to be gained from engaging in anti-Semitism.

The sad truth is there are a hell of a lot of votes to be gained from generalised xenophobia, and particularly Islamophobia.

That is the case because it has been allowed to be the case by politicians and the media.

I saw where Nadine Dorries, a conservative front bencher, had been retweeting provocative comments by tommy robinson. One of a sizeable number of tory candidates to do so. I think they know exactly what they are doing here, appealing to a certain base in the knowledge that the media are far too busy elsewhere to give this the attention it deserves.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And as Piers - a Remainer - correctly points out, it's undemocratic not to implement the result of the first referendum.

What is undemocratic about a second referendum? Are people not allowed change their minds? Was the rerun of the Nice and Lisbon treaty referendums undemocratic?

Democracy serves as a benchmark of legitimacy and it must account for changing circumstances, hence the need for regular consultation with the people, you need to establish the settled will of the people, not just the will of the people for such an important decision taking account of attitude changes, inforned consent and changes in the electorate, these are some of the most important points in constitutional theory when dealing with the democratic status of any referendum and potential rerun.

The idea that you can't change your mind, that you must see through the first result and only the first result no matter what despite changing attitudes, despite more informed opinions, despite democratic changes is what is rightly undemocratic, it goes against any concept of democracy.

Leroy42

I find the demand that the 1st vote be carried out as odd. Even putting aside the lies, illegality and the fact that Brexit deal is nowhere close to what was promised (leaving SM was never part of the plan).

But isn't it similar to a GE after which the parties cannot agree a coalition (deal) and thus go back to the people?

McGiver

GM228 wrote:

The idea that you can't change your mind, that you must see through the first result and only the first result no matter what despite changing attitudes, despite more informed opinions, despite democratic changes is what is rightly undemocratic, it goes against any concept of democracy.

This is why despotic and authoritarian regimes like referenda. They use them for the "will of the people" argument. And of course there's no rerun in that case. Like in Crimea.

Brexiters, and British population in general, have serious deficits in understanding of democracy. Because UK democracy is seriously flawed as we know, the media are extremely biased, population badly educated and not very politically engaged.

Danzy

McGiver wrote: »

This is why despotic and authoritarian regimes like referenda. They use them for the "will of the people" argument. And of course there's no rerun in that case. Like in Crimea.

Brexiters, and British population in general, have serious deficits in understanding of democracy. Because UK democracy is seriously flawed as we know, the media are extremely biased, population badly educated and not very politically engaged.

There has always been a large strain of "they know not what they do" we shall guide them in the correct direction from Left and self declared progressive people.

No coincidence that both cone from the same class that so many in the Church did.

Fr Tod Umptious

McGiver wrote: »

This is why despotic and authoritarian regimes like referenda. They use them for the "will of the people" argument. And of course there's no rerun in that case. Like in Crimea.

Brexiters, and British population in general, have serious deficits in understanding of democracy. Because UK democracy is seriously flawed as we know, the media are extremely biased, population badly educated and not very politically engaged.

Let's resurrect this post the next time we here in Ireland are asked to vote again on something and people are whinging about it.

Yes the original 2016 was flawed, and there were lies, and it was vague etc but you still cannot wilfully ignore the outcome of it as the Lib Dems are threatening to do.

bren2001

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Let's resurrect this post the next time we here in Ireland are asked to vote again on something and people are whinging about it.

Yes the original 2016 was flawed, and there were lies, and it was vague etc but you still cannot wilfully ignore the outcome of it as the Lib Dems are threatening to do.

I think the point of that argument is that decision like this should never be put to the people. Britain has never been a populist society and in 2016, that's the exact transition they underwent. They have elected officials who are supposed to study the ramifications of taking such actions and ultimately deciding. That is their job.

In Ireland, it is a little bit different. Our constitution is structured in such a way that those EU treaties must go to a referendum here. We have no choice.

EDIT: It's also not the "will of the people", it's the will of some people. The Lib Dems are not ignoring the result, if they are elected they have a clear mandate to ignore the results of 2016. If that's not what you want, you shouldn't vote for them. Equally, Labour have a clear campaign of another referendum and the Tories is the Boris Withdrawal Bill.

Danzy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Let's resurrect this post the next time we here in Ireland are asked to vote again on something and people are whinging about it.

Yes the original 2016 was flawed, and there were lies, and it was vague etc but you still cannot wilfully ignore the outcome of it as the Lib Dems are threatening to do.

The wrong class of people carried it, people who should have known their place.

That drives a lot of the anger.

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Several posters have been sanctioned for getting personal with one another. Please stick to the topic at hand and don't start flinging abuse at other people. I've also deleted some posts quoting deleted/actioned posts.

FrancieBrady

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Jamie Bryson getting more air time on the BBC via that Newsnight report.

It was sad and funny too, how he boiled this election down to what it will be in certain wards - 'them versus us'.

Zubeneschamali

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes the original 2016 was flawed, and there were lies, and it was vague etc but you still cannot wilfully ignore the outcome of it as the Lib Dems are threatening to do.

As a simple matter of fact and law, the UK Parliament can wilfully ignore it.

If the LibDems run on a platform of ignoring it and somehow win a majority, they would have a mandate to ignore it.

That isn't going to happen, instead we'll get either a Tory majority or a hung Parliament. Nevertheless, the LibDems who are returned will be absolutely within their mandate to argue that Brexit should not happen.

Harry Palmr

Corbyn dropping a potential bombshell for the blondeshell - documents re NHS future and a trade deal with the USA.

From grauniad

Corbyn reveals dossier of official documents that he says proves NHS 'up for sale' in UK-US trade talks

Jeremy Corbyn is speaking now.

He says, although only redacted documents of the talks between UK and US officials were released in response to a freedom of information request, Labour has now obtained 451 pages of documents about what was discussed.

A Channel 4 Dispatches investigation first revealed these talks.

Corbyn brandishes the new documents. He says they leave “Boris Johnson’s denials in absolute tatters”.

He says these papers show that “the NHS is on the table and will be up for sale” in a UK-US trade deal.

There have been six rounds of talks, he says. But he says effectively it is all one negotiation.

LeinsterDub

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Corbyn dropping a potential bombshell for the blondeshell - documents re NHS future and a trade deal with the USA.

From grauniad

This has the potential to be dementia tax level game changer

Professor Moriarty

Labour press conference on US/UK trade negotiations might be a stumbling block for Johnson. Corbyn has documents that prove he has lied (quelle surprise) about the NHS in relation to the negotiations.

ArmaniJeanss

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Corbyn dropping a potential bombshell for the blondeshell - documents re NHS future and a trade deal with the USA.

From grauniad

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Labour press conference on US/UK trade negotiations might be a stumbling block for Johnson. Corbyn has documents that prove he has lied (quelle surprise) about the NHS in relation to the negotiations.

And yet all the queue-d questions from the attending journalists are about anti-semitism.

Joe_ Public

Big chance for labour to move narrative back to safe ground of nhs. First question after is about antisemitism. After second question is the same, barry gardiner asks journalist if she has a question about nhs or just wants to have a dig. Understand his frustration but he'll get criticism for that. Think Corbyn did offer an apology of sorts.

Dont know if this is a game changer, but definitely going to be uncomfortable for johnson.

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Big chance for labour to move narrative back to safe ground of nhs. First question after is about antisemitism. After second question is the same, barry gardiner asks journalist if she has a question about nhs or just wants to have a dig. Understand his frustration but he'll get criticism for that. Think Corbyn did offer an apology of sorts.

Dont know if this is a game changer, but definitely going to be uncomfortable for johnson.

Polling shows that the NHS has overtaken Brexit to become voters' most important issue in recent weeks.

Harry Palmr

Social issues will always be the Tories weakest point so Labour need to make sure they can deliver a one-two with a related follow up.

Bannasidhe

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

And yet all the queue-d questions from the attending journalists are about anti-semitism.

Which will I think backfire on the journalists and the Tories.

Don't know if anyone saw that gogglebox where the sofa occupants reacted to when Corbyn produced the redacted docs but fair to say the majority were fairly worked up at the thought of the NHS being 'sold' and really wanted to know what is in those docs.

People will be bellowing at their TV's "F*** the bloody Jews, tell us abaht the NHS!!"

I do know that my Jewish friends in the UK are incensed that they are being dragged into this and furious that their community is being employed to deflect from the very serious issues currently facing British society.
This is not to say they dismiss antisemitism as a threat, it is to say that they do not feel it is currently a major threat in UK society and when it does rear it's bigoted head it's not from within the Labour Party - it is from the Brexit/Tory Right.
For once my Reformed and Hasidim Jewish friends are on the same page. Which is one positive to come from this I suppose.

Leroy42

I don't think it will make any difference.

Anyone who has been paying any attention knows already that the NHS, although indirectly through drug pricing etc, is going to front and centre of any trade deal. Just as visas will be for India and probably clearance for investments and ignore human rights will be for China.

Anyone who doesn't already know, well a massively redacted and 400+ page volume is not going to change their mind. They have already bought into the lies of Brexit, and this will simply be passed off as Project Fear (Mk III I think at this stage). Johnson will simply come out and say that yes talks were held but NHS was never mentioned and he would never, no PM could eve, agree to anything like that.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Polling shows that the NHS has overtaken Brexit to become voters' most important issue in recent weeks.

And of course more people getting sick this time of year and thinking more and more about it so expect that to go up even further. Every chance i think of getting brexit done just boring them to tears by polling day.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

I don't think it will make any difference.

Anyone who has been paying any attention knows already that the NHS, although indirectly through drug pricing etc, is going to front and centre of any trade deal. Just as visas will be for India and probably clearance for investments and ignore human rights will be for China.

Anyone who doesn't already know, well a massively redacted and 400+ page volume is not going to change their mind. They have already bought into the lies of Brexit, and this will simply be passed off as Project Fear (Mk III I think at this stage). Johnson will simply come out and say that yes talks were held but NHS was never mentioned and he would never, no PM could eve, agree to anything like that.

Not sure. Dont think this is a smoking gun as it only seems to cover a period up to 2018 when theresa may was pm so johnson can probably deflect it easily enough. But by keeping the issue front and centre for a while can only be good for labour i think. People already distrust johnson in a big way, all this adds to it imo.

GM228

Apart from the issue of the NHS being potentially for sale, the other revelation that the UK would be open to increasing the patent length of US company made drugs meaning the cost of drugs to the NHS could increase won't go down well either.

GM228

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1199617104632336384?s=19

How does an Australian points based immigration system protect the NHS?

Strazdas

Good move by Corbyn : if you're denying, you're already losing.

awec

Laura Kuenssberg is actually a joke.