General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Irish Praetorian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One Nation Conservatism gets a thorough and forensic bashing on here, as do I. And that's fine, people are entitled to their own political views.

But it is what the British electorate appear - based on these preliminary results - to want.

So, whilst we can condemn Conservatives and assume they are all beyond the pale, the UK electorate wish to see a Conservative Government for the forthcoming 5 years.

It's not over yet, though. As with any election, things can change - and, though unlikely, it is still within the bounds of possibility that some major event could deliver a minority Corbyn government.

From my perspective though, I'm ecstatic with these results and hope it continues apace in the weeks ahead.

Out of interest, what are you looking to see from a Boris government (be it one nation tory or not), specifically in terms of metrics?

Most people would I suspect be looking for good figures on the big hitters, so economic growth, low unemployment, modest inflation if that. Would you have any more concrete targets on things like migration, regional investment or spending policies?

I know we tend to get lost in the Brexit issue by itself, but would you see it as part of a wider direction for the UK and what might that direction be? I know one of the popular choices (in certain circles) is the one articulated by Daniel Hannan which might be called a more traditional conservative policy of low tax low spend low regulation, with some special things like free ports. Would you share that view and how would you see it brought to life?

hotmail.com

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

One would assume that the people registering to vote would have been included in tonight's poll results. If so, there is no comfort for Labour in the new registrations.

A tiny fraction of the huge electorate in the UK.

Plus not all new voters will go for Labour. Greens and Lib Dems popular among university students and graduates.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

A tiny fraction of the huge electorate in the UK.

Plus not all new voters will go for Labour. Greens and Lib Dems popularly among university students and graduates.

Indeed. In Brexit terms, the Leave vote is united whereas the Remain vote is fragmented. In terms of social care, the NHS, education and similar issues, it beggars belief that some of the poorest regions of England will vote Tory.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

One Nation Conservatism gets a thorough and forensic bashing on here, as do I. And that's fine, people are entitled to their own political views.

But it is what the British electorate appear - based on these preliminary results - to want.

The English electorate, not the Scottish, the Welsh or NI electorate

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The English electorate, not the Scottish, the Welsh or NI electorate

But you're only arguing this because your side is losing / has lost.

If your side was winning, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

But you're only arguing this because your side is losing / has lost.

If your side was winning, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.

I am showing you that this polll does not put your Tory love in as a winner in Scotland, Wales & NI - those are the facts of this poll. This signifies a very Disunited Kingdom

hotmail.com

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am showing you that this polll does not put your Tory love in as a winner in Scotland, Wales & NI - those are the facts of this poll. This signifies a very Disunited Kingdom

That's true - with a Tory majority, it could lead to the break up of the UK.

Recent polls have shown that English voters are not that bothered about that.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

But you're only arguing this because your side is losing / has lost.

If your side was winning, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.

There's nothing to argue really, it's a fact. The modern tory party is basically an English party.

Boris was happy, for example, to sell out NI to deliver his Brexit for England.

FrancieBrady

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am showing you that this polll does not put your Tory love in as a winner in Scotland, Wales & NI - those are the facts of this poll. This signifies a very Disunited Kingdom

True. If the UK votes this way it is voting for the break up of the UK, or at the very least they are saying they don't care if it breaks up.

awec

Does anyone know when the poll was conducted by the way? Was it before or after today's NHS revelations?

Strazdas

awec wrote: »

Does anyone know when the poll was conducted by the way? Was it before or after today's NHS revelations?

The last seven days, including today

sid waddell

This YouGov MRP poll is working off an 11% lead nationally, isn't it? 42-31.

359 seats doesn't sound that impresssive given those totals, and we have had some polls showing a narrower gap.

Joe_ Public

awec wrote: »

Does anyone know when the poll was conducted by the way? Was it before or after today's NHS revelations?

Wouldnt have taken today into account, whatever difference it might have made. "Up to and including November 26".

https://yougov.co.uk/uk-general-election-2019/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=MRP_26_Nov_2019

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

This YouGov MRP poll is working off an 11% lead nationally, isn't it? 42-31.

359 seats doesn't sound that impresssive given those totals, and we have had some polls showing a narrower gap.

Key sentence in report to watch out for is that a drop from 11 to 7% in conservative lead could deny them a majority. That shows how tight a lot of the key marginals are. Four percentage points isnt a lot really.

Infini

Deleted User wrote: »

But you're only arguing this because your side is losing / has lost.

If your side was winning, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion.

Seriosly man your going on about this but your essentially supporting and voting for THIS.



That pretty much sums up the whole Tories today. That's what your essentially voting for and supporting. They dont care about anyone but themselves and they'll be the end of the UK with their carryon at this rate.

The whole problem with the UK system is that England is currently having disproportionate influence partly because of population and partially because of the distorting effects of FPTP. What your not considering is that when the other 3 area's vote in a significant majority AGAINST what English voters vote for then your seeing the exact recipe for the disintegration of the UK as Scotland eventually secedes due to Brexit and NI is reunified with the rest of Ireland.

awec wrote: »

There's nothing to argue really, it's a fact. The modern tory party is basically an English party.

Boris was happy, for example, to sell out NI to deliver his Brexit for England.

The Tories today are essentially Posh UKIP. They've been essentially hollowed out and replaced over the last number of years with the likes of Moggles and friends and of course having chancers like Boris hanging around. The whole problem is if they're allowed to remain in power they'll eventually end bringing down the whole UK as a serious entity with their behaviour as they ultimately pursue policies that ultimately end up in causing terminal splits in the Union like Scotland and Northern Ireland. They're jokingly calling what's left of the UK (Wales and England) wangland over on /r/Brexit on reddit in this scenario and it certainly could happen at this rate.

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Key sentence in report to watch out for is that a drop from 11 to 7% in conservative lead could deny them a majority. That shows how tight a lot of the key marginals are. Four percentage points isnt a lot really.

This whole thing isnt over until the Fat lady sings as they say and I honestly think that as depressing as it might be to see the Tories win the rest arent out of the fight yet and that ultimately they need to hammer home the message that voting for the Tories is voting for the end of the UK, selling off of the NHS and butchering rights and protections of people to satify the needs of the likes of Moggs who dont care about their country they're essentially out to strip the country for their own profit and pockets.

prinzeugen

Just to mention something. There has been accusations of MPs & Lords falling asleep in the houses.

The little round things with a grill above the seats are speakers. Many MPs are hard of hearing so lean towards the speaker to hear what a backbencher is saying.

They are not asleep!

Rjd2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

One would assume that the people registering to vote would have been included in tonight's poll results. If so, there is no comfort for Labour in the new registrations.

The major fear in toryland which I keep seeing from conservative writers is complacency.
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1199817339870556162

Lot is going to come down to those who lean towards the lib dems, can Boris persuade them that Brexit is a lesser evil than Jez as PM ...can Labour prove to them that Boris as PM is a bigger disaster than their concerns over Jez.

Its wild as this election will ultimately be decided what is the lesser of all evils for so many voters.

suicide_circus

if we take that poll at face value and acknowledging the comedy of errors for the last 3 years under the tories...what does it tell us?

* a rejection of JC?

* a rejection of JC's brexit stance?

* a rejection of the rejection of brexit?

robinph

prinzeugen wrote: »

Just to mention something. There has been accusations of MPs & Lords falling asleep in the houses.

The little round things with a grill above the seats are speakers. Many MPs are hard of hearing so lean towards the speaker to hear what a backbencher is saying.

They are not asleep!

You can see the speakers in the panel behind him, that isn't what he was doing then. He's not hard of hearing, the chamber was practically empty at the time so zero problem hearing the other members speaking.

He was being lazy, sleeping and disrespectful when he was the government mp meant to be stood by the despatch box at the time.

Professor Moriarty

suicide_circus wrote: »

if we take that poll at face value and acknowledging the comedy of errors for the last 3 years under the tories...what does it tell us?

* a rejection of JC?

* a rejection of JC's brexit stance?

* a rejection of the rejection of brexit?

It's a damning indictment of Corbyn's lack of leadership and of his ideology.

suicide_circus

and say the election result ends up something like that poll, will MPs still do their damndest to frustrate brexit?

prawnsambo

suicide_circus wrote: »

and say the election result ends up something like that poll, will MPs still do their damndest to frustrate brexit?

The ones that aren't stupid will. But that's a rapidly diminishing cohort.

Letwin_Larry

i think 86 year old Molly from Hampshire sums up perfectly just how frustrated many of the UK electorate are with the "choice" they now have.
will it be "The RedMan who hates Jewish people, or the Bufoon with short shirts?". Brillant Molly!

https://news.sky.com/video/i-call-him-buffoon-voter-unhappy-with-pm-11871833

on a slightly more serious note the IFS has rubbished both Tory & Lab party manifestos as not credible. Is anybody surprised?

https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-live-ifs-delivers-verdict-on-election-manifestos-11872231

ancapailldorcha

suicide_circus wrote: »

if we take that poll at face value and acknowledging the comedy of errors for the last 3 years under the tories...what does it tell us?

* a rejection of JC?

* a rejection of JC's brexit stance?

* a rejection of the rejection of brexit?

It tells us that the British public still want Brexit despite the lies, lawbreaking and venality. In that case, I think that they're a lost cause. There is a party promising a People's Vote with remain on the ballot and one promising unilateral revocation of Article 50.

suicide_circus

prawnsambo wrote: »

The ones that aren't stupid will. But that's a rapidly diminishing cohort.

but surely an election giving boris those kind of numbers is an endorsement of his aims to deliver brexit?

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It tells us that the British public still want Brexit despite the lies, lawbreaking and venality. In that case, I think that they're a lost cause. There is a party promising a People's Vote with remain on the ballot and one promising unilateral revocation of Article 50.

A couple of weeks ago, I was looking forward to watching how the campaign played out and awarded myself the hope that both the Brexit Party and the Lib Dems would break the old Two Party system apart, paving the way for proportional representation and overall reform of the British electoral process.

Now I've moved squarely into the "feck the lot of them" camp. Much as it pains me to say it, I think eskimo is representative of the Ordinary British Joe Soap - completely in love with the lying, cheating, dishonest, homophobic, racist, criminal Tory PM, mainly because he is not Jeremy Corbyn. And let's get Brexit done.

If that's what Britain has become, then let them build their New Jerusalem in the green and pleasant land, enjoy whatever prosperity their biblical overlords allow them, and (hopefully) keep their toxic politics safely quarantined on their own island.

I do feel sorry for the Scots though.

bren2001

suicide_circus wrote: »

but surely an election giving boris those kind of numbers is an endorsement of his aims to deliver brexit?

If Britain vote Boris into power then he has a mandate for Brexit. It's that simple. It's regrettable to see. I think it's a massive mistake as do a lot of other people but if that's what the electorate want, parliament has no choice. The opposition will have no method or mandate to stop it.

The SNP have Scotland locked down which gives them a mandate to seek a referendum to leave the UK. Northern Ireland may end up in a similar position as is true for Wales.

sid waddell

How is it that Boris Johnson's continued commissioning of articles by a virulent anti-Semite, Taki Theodoracopulos, while editor of The Spectator from 1999 to 2005, has not been mentioned by the media?

Commissioning anti-Semites to spread anti-Semitic propaganda is bad, isn't it?

Or is it acceptable because he's a Tory?

https://libcom.org/blog/conservative-antisemitism-strange-case-boris-johnson-richard-spencer-gavin-mcinnes-23112019

Johnson edited The Spectator from 1999 to 2005. Throughout this time, and indeed up to the present day, the magazine employed the notoriously racist and anti-Semitic commentator Taki Theodoracopulos, better known as just “Taki”. At the time Johnson took over, Taki was already known for anti-Semitic and pro-nazi attitudes, such as a 1997 piece in defence of the revisionist historian Ernst Nolte, first published in the Spectator and later republished by a number of Holocaust denial outfits, which argued that “so much opprobrium has come to be attached to almost every aspect of the German past that it is impossible to say anything good about it without being condemned as a Nazi sympathizer. Nonetheless, it is hard not to conclude that the Germany of the past was vastly superior to [that of today]... the constant harping on about the Germans seems to be motivated by profit.” Another column, also from 1997, complained that “The younger generation of Jews who control [Hollywood] now think that there's more money to be made by dumbing down.”

If he wanted to, if he felt that those sorts of comments were unacceptable, Johnson could have fired Taki immediately after taking over The Spectator, but he chose not to. There is absolutely no question that Johnson was aware of Taki’s bigoted attitudes, as in a friendly interview from 1999, he was asked about Taki’s racism and admitted “you're right, on the whole, I'm not mad for that stuff.” Despite being “not mad for” such overt racism, he continued to employ Taki throughout his time at The Spectator.

In 2001, in the middle of Johnson's time as Spectator editor, Taki wrote an anti-Semitic column so extreme that it prompted Conrad Black, owner of The Spectator and not someone who could be accused of an unfair bias against the publication, to complain that "In both its venomous character and its unfathomable absurdity, this farrago of lies is almost worthy of Goebbels or the authors of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion... [Taki] presents the universal Jewish ethos as brutish, vulgar, grasping and cunningly wicked." Some people, on being publicly warned by their boss that they were publishing anti-Semitic material reminscent of Goebbels, might wish to change course, but Boris Johnson chose to continue publishing Taki's columns after this incident.

Since his time as an employee of Boris Johnson, Taki has continued to express the same anti-Semitic attitudes over and over again, writing that “The Jewish lobby in America has stifled debate” and that “rich American Jews... encourage unacceptable and brutal behaviour against innocents”, penning a defence of Greece’s neo-nazi Golden Dawn party, and more recently writing a column about “the heroism of the German soldiers” fighting in WWII that was originally titled “In Praise of the Wehrmacht.”

Professor Moriarty

Rjd2 wrote: »

The major fear in toryland which I keep seeing from conservative writers is complacency.
https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1199817339870556162

Lot is going to come down to those who lean towards the lib dems, can Boris persuade them that Brexit is a lesser evil than Jez as PM ...can Labour prove to them that Boris as PM is a bigger disaster than their concerns over Jez.

Its wild as this election will ultimately be decided what is the lesser of all evils for so many voters.

It occurs to me that a possible glimmer of light for Labour might be to focus on Brexit. Though the NHS is the most important issue, Brexit is a close second. The younger you are, the less likely the NHS will feature in your thinking about your vote. Also, anyone with half a brain will already know that Labour will protect the NHS much better than the Tories.

The vast majority of the new registrations will be young people who lean heavily towards Remain and Brexit will be foremost in their thinking. Therefore, as well as targeting Remain Tories, Labour needs to target young voters who intend voting Green or Lib Dem by stealing those parties' clothes. So a strong emphasis on climate change and, most importantly, Vote Labour To Avoid A Hard Brexit.

Letwin_Larry

the UK electorate has some choice to make. Who you believe or not has rarely been so difficult to decide. Here is what the IFS believe.

Neither of the two main parties is offering a "properly credible prospectus" in their general election manifesto spending plans, a respected economic think tank has said.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies said it was "highly likely" that a Conservative government would end up spending more than set out in their manifesto, meaning either taxes or borrowing would have to rise to pay for it.

With regards to Labour, it said Jeremy Corbyn's party would not be able to deliver on its pledge to raise investment by £55bn a year as the public sector does not have the capacity to "ramp up" that much that quickly.

The IFS deemed it "highly likely" that a Labour government would have to find other tax increases beyond those it has announced if it was to raise the extra £83bn a year in additional revenues it wants.

Director Paul Johnson said: "In reality, a change in the scale and the scope of the state that they propose would require more broad-based tax increases at some point."

He added that the chances of the Tories being able to keep spending down over the course of a five year parliament in the way that they proposed appeared to be "remote".

"Why have they been so immensely modest in their proposals? Because to do otherwise would either mean resiling from their pledge to balance the current budget or would mean being up front about the need for tax rises to avoid breaking that pledge," he said.

"Rarely can a starker choice have been placed before the UK electorate."

https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-live-ifs-delivers-verdict-on-election-manifestos-11872231