General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

What's that got to do with the contention - here - that Nigel Farage is, whether you like/hate his politics, a very significant political figure in UK history?

He single-handedly changed the course of UK history.

Well, Farage never wanted a referendum (if he had campaigned for the holding of a referendum, he would have been duty bound to accept the result....which most people felt Leave would lose).

The referendum was just a cheap and cynical political stunt by Cameron (he told Ken Clarke he held it to shut up the ERG mob, not Farage).

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Hypocrisy is never a good reason to justify a course of action.

Yerra go on out of that. He sent in the complaint even before the programme was aired which isnt actually a valid process. Its just usual tory deflection tactics, empty threats and gestures, silly juvenile stunts to take attention away from the fact their great leader cant handle himself in a mature adult debate. Nothing more to it than that.

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yerra go on out of that. He sent in the complaint even before the programme was aired which isnt actually a valid process. Its just usual tory deflection tactics, empty threats and gestures, silly juvenile stunts to take attention away from the fact their great leader cant handle himself in a mature adult debate. Nothing more to it than that.

It just gets more and more pathetic. Even Prince Andrew did an interview for God's sake.

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It just gets more and more pathetic. Even Prince Andrew did an interview for God's sake.

Well, he's not going up for election. Cummings is playing a blinder. Push the mantra - Get Brexit Done - out early. Then smear Corbyn with accusations of antisemitism and Marxism. Get Johnson to do a few meaningless interviews and plenty of photo ops. When you're comfortably ahead in the polls, stick Johnson back in the freezer until election day. Et voila - a large Tory majority.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, he's not going up for election. Cummings is playing a blinder. Push the mantra - Get Brexit Done - out early. Then smear Corbyn with accusations of antisemitism and Marxism. Get Johnson to do a few meaningless interviews and plenty of photo ops. When you're comfortably ahead in the polls, stick Johnson back in the freezer until election day. Et voila - a large Tory majority.

Agreed.

What matters is strategy - and the Johnson / Cummings fusion has delivered on that score.

Whatever else is said in this election campaign, Cummings has delivered.

He's a genius when it comes to campaigning. First Brexit, now Johnson. He's a winner.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed.

What matters is strategy - and the Johnson / Cummings fusion has delivered on that score.

Whatever else is said in this election campaign, Cummings has delivered.

He's a genius when it comes to campaigning. First Brexit, now Johnson. He's a winner.

Looks like it, sadly.

Joe_ Public

As cowardly and undemocratic as it is, there is of course a compelling reason why johnson is ducking scrutiny. Cant blame his handlers for their strategy. Can you imagine the car crash tv a debate with johnson on climate change could produce?

Meanwhile, while the responsible party leaders are debating an issue many believe to be the single most critical one facing the planet, this is what is occupying the man in charge of the country.

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1200128474738036737?s=20

Leroy42

Only if the only thing that matters is winning. And that is of course true for Johnson and the Tories I fail to see why anybody would welcome it.

If winning is all that matters, then anything to achieve it is worth it and you can't trust that person.

Professor Moriarty

Leroy42 wrote: »

Only if the only thing that matters is winning. And that is of course true for Johnson and the Tories I fail to see why anybody would welcome it.

If winning is all that matters, then anything to achieve it is worth it and you can't trust that person.

It's politics though. Fine and dandy to have your principles, but if you don't get into power then your principles don't matter.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As cowardly and undemocratic as it is, there is of course a compelling reason why johnson is ducking scrutiny. Cant blame his handlers for their strategy. Can you imagine the car crash tv a debate with johnson on climate change could produce?

Meanwhile, while the responsible party leaders are debating an issue many believe to be the single most critical one facing the planet, this is what is occupying the man in charge of the country.

Look, Channel 4 should have issued a debate on the General Election - both Brexit and other domestic issues, and even climate change.

It makes no sense to focus purely on climate change. Yes, it's an important issue and must be tackled, but to hold a debate on the issue 2 weeks before a very important GE just doesn't make sense.

They could have held a 60-minute debate, and had climate change as a question for 20 minutes of that. Instead, they've completely lost focus. Johnson not appearing in this debate has become a non-issue.

Of course, for anti-Johnson supporters, of which there are many on here, it's injected into the discussion as a major issue of global significance, but this debate will be forgotten about before tomorrow morning.

That's not the fault of Johnson. It's the fault of Channel 4 for not making it a GE debate worth contributing to and worth watching.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Looks like it, sadly.

Cummings isn't running the campaign.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Look, Channel 4 should have issued a debate on the General Election - both Brexit and other domestic issues, and even climate change.

It makes no sense to focus purely on climate change. Yes, it's an important issue and must be tackled, but to hold a debate on the issue 2 weeks before a very important GE just doesn't make sense.

They could have held a 60-minute debate, and had climate change as a question for 20 minutes of that. Instead, they've completely lost focus. Johnson not appearing in this debate has become a non-issue.

Of course, for anti-Johnson supporters, of which there are many on here, it's injected into the discussion as a major issue of global significance, but this debate will be forgotten about before tomorrow morning.

That's not the fault of Johnson. It's the fault of Channel 4 for not making it a GE debate worth watching.

Are you actually saying that the Johnson who's currently running away from Andrew Neil, has consistently run (and cycled) away from C4, has run away from a nice cuddly topic like climate change, would happily sit for a far wider ranging interview with the same C4? That Johnson?

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Cummings isn't running the campaign.

Is he not Johnson's senior advisor?

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look, Channel 4 should have issued a debate on the General Election - both Brexit and other domestic issues, and even climate change.

It makes no sense to focus purely on climate change. Yes, it's an important issue and must be tackled, but to hold a debate on the issue 2 weeks before a very important GE just doesn't make sense.

They could have held a 60-minute debate, and had climate change as a question for 20 minutes of that. Instead, they've completely lost focus. Johnson not appearing in this debate has become a non-issue.

Of course, for anti-Johnson supporters, of which there are many on here, it's injected into the discussion as a major issue of global significance, but this debate will be forgotten about before tomorrow morning.

That's not the fault of Johnson. It's the fault of Channel 4 for not making it a GE debate worth contributing to and worth watching.

Why is that a reason for johnson not to show up? According to press reports he said he wouldnt debate with sturgeon because she couldnt be pm. Is that actually a plausible excuse? Why not just say i dont want to do it if thats the truth.

And why wont he confirm he'll do an Andrew neil interview? What's the excuse there?

bren2001

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look, Channel 4 should have issued a debate on the General Election - both Brexit and other domestic issues, and even climate change.

It makes no sense to focus purely on climate change. Yes, it's an important issue and must be tackled, but to hold a debate on the issue 2 weeks before a very important GE just doesn't make sense.

They could have held a 60-minute debate, and had climate change as a question for 20 minutes of that. Instead, they've completely lost focus. Johnson not appearing in this debate has become a non-issue.

Of course, for anti-Johnson supporters, of which there are many on here, it's injected into the discussion as a major issue of global significance, but this debate will be forgotten about before tomorrow morning.

That's not the fault of Johnson. It's the fault of Channel 4 for not making it a GE debate worth contributing to and worth watching.

There's nothing wrong with having a debate on what is probably the single greatest global issue on this planet right now. It's incredibly important that the electorate know what each party offers in this area. The debate tonight is worthwhile.

Equally, if Johnson doesn't want to turn up. That's his choice. They offered an alternative and C4 said no. The ice sculpture is wrong.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Holding a debate on climate change and Boris not turning up are both fine. Neither should is wrong. Both can be criticised.

C4 should have accepted an alternative or not included the Tories.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Is he not Johnson's senior advisor?

Yes, but he's not running the campaign. Some Aussie bloke is doing that iirc. Cummings is not even in Downing Street now.

briany

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, he's not going up for election. Cummings is playing a blinder. Push the mantra - Get Brexit Done - out early. Then smear Corbyn with accusations of antisemitism and Marxism. Get Johnson to do a few meaningless interviews and plenty of photo ops. When you're comfortably ahead in the polls, stick Johnson back in the freezer until election day. Et voila - a large Tory majority.

If you asked most of what the 'Corbyn is a Marxist' brigade what Marxism is, would they know? Have they all read Das Kapital and formed an opinion?

The "Get Brexit Done" line could badly blow up in the Conservatives' faces. A classic case of short-term thinking leading to long-term disaster. What happens when it becomes apparent to the electorate that Brexit is in no-way done? What'll be the slogan then? "Let's pop Brexit back into the microwave for a minute."? "Sorry Brexit gave you all salmonella"? "I thought it said gas mark 3"?

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Is he not Johnson's senior advisor?

I wonder if he's not gone entirely since he's writing his blog again as his publicist laura kuennsberg has been busy informing us.

bren2001

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes, but he's not running the campaign. Some Aussie bloke is doing that iirc. Cummings is not even in Downing Street now.

Nobody is in Downing Street, no? Cummings wanted to stay but the Civil Servants said no. I certainly read that someone.

I'd be shocked if he wasnt heavily involved in this albeit I doubt he's running it. Not his speciality.

prawnsambo

bren2001 wrote: »

C4 should have accepted an alternative or not included the Tories.

If they accepted an alternative then Corbyn would probably not have turned up, nor any of the other party leaders. It would be a gross insult to them.

sid waddell

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You will try and justify everything the Tories do no matter how extreme won't you?

Now threatening a broadcaster is ok.
Who should they try and bully into silence next do you think?
Perhaps the Guardian for publishing the story?

Authoritarianism is creeping into British politics.

A threat to a broadcaster is completely unacceptable.

The evidence from elsewhere shows the people should be very, very worried about this.

Professor Moriarty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes, but he's not running the campaign. Some Aussie bloke is doing that iirc. Cummings is not even in Downing Street now.

He came up with Get Brexit Done and has been directing Johnson to date. Dunno who the Aussie bloke is?

prawnsambo

bren2001 wrote: »

Nobody is in Downing Street, no? Cummings wanted to stay but the Civil Servants said no. I certainly read that someone.

I'd be shocked if he wasnt heavily involved in this albeit I doubt he's running it. Not his speciality.

I'd be surprised if he was. The chap who's actually supposed to be running it would hardly stand for that.

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, he's not going up for election. Cummings is playing a blinder. Push the mantra - Get Brexit Done - out early. Then smear Corbyn with accusations of antisemitism and Marxism. Get Johnson to do a few meaningless interviews and plenty of photo ops. When you're comfortably ahead in the polls, stick Johnson back in the freezer until election day. Et voila - a large Tory majority.

Exactly. He's not running and yet he still did an interview. Johnson is and has decided to hide.

Unfortunately, the simple mantra he's adopted seems to be working.

Joe_ Public

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He came up with Get Brexit Done and has been directing Johnson to date. Dunno who the Aussie bloke is?

Two new zealand guys in there, proteges of the Aussie who was there in 2017.

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Why is that a reason for johnson not to show up? According to press reports he said he wouldnt debate with sturgeon because she couldnt be pm. Is that actually a plausible excuse? Why not just say i dont want to do it if thats the truth.

And why wont he confirm he'll do an Andrew neil interview? What's the excuse there?

My hunch says that the Sturgeon answer is a cop out. The reason is much more likely to be that No. 10 feels that a Channel 4 interview will be biased to the extent of damaging Johnson and that debate may become a national headline. I've no evidence for this assumption, but if I were to guess, this would be my answer.

Personally, I hope he does do the Mr Neil interview. Mrs. May evading debate and questioning in 2017 was very damaging for her. I hope Johnson does engage. If he does agree, I have no doubt in my mind that Mr Neil will crush him to pieces. So, I can understand the reticence on behalf of No. 10 - but I personally would like to see the interview take place.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He came up with Get Brexit Done and has been directing Johnson to date. Dunno who the Aussie bloke is?

Lynton Crosby is the chap running the show. Are you sure Cummings came up with that slogan?

Professor Moriarty

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I wonder if he's not gone entirely since he's writing his blog again as his publicist laura kuennsberg has been busy informing us.

My impression is that Johnson was his glove puppet ever since Johnson started campaigning for Tory leader. Maybe he has stepped back now. Which would be strange seeing as he has done a very good job for Johnson to date.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My impression is that Johnson was his glove puppet ever since Johnson started campaigning for Tory leader. Maybe he has stepped back now. Which would be strange seeing as he has done a very good job for Johnson to date.

Not too much.

I mean, prorogation of parliament was a catastrophically bad strategic course of action.

Some say it was intentionally bad to create a Johnson-versus-Parliament war narrative - but there's no direct evidence of this.

prawnsambo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My impression is that Johnson was his glove puppet ever since Johnson started campaigning for Tory leader. Maybe he has stepped back now. Which would be strange seeing as he has done a very good job for Johnson to date.

He's done a terrible job. Prorogation anyone? "We'll see how clever Mr. Grieve is". Very clever as it turned out. Painted themselves into an even tighter corner than Theresa May did and practically had to beg to get an election called. One huge miscalculation after another. And the crowning glory; getting a withdrawal agreement that was an earlier draft of the one that TM got. Keystone cops stuff.