General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

It won't happen, or is extremely unlikely to happen.

Furthermore, if in the unlikely even he did lose, another Tory - in a safe seat - would step down to trigger a by-election to re-recruit Johnson as the Tory leader. This could be organized as early as January.

Either way, Johnson is not going anywhere.

AGREE - Extremely unlikely to happen

DISAGREE - there is absolutely no way that a by election would be triggered to Bring Back Boris - honestly, i know you support him but that is perhaps the silliest thing i have ever seen here - nonsense

For a start that would be to inflict a By Election on a constituency for entirely party selfish, or in this case, Boris Selfish Reasons

Secondly the moment he is no longer an MP - the party would have to select a replacement for him as leader of the CP - and ultimately PM of the UK

Thirdly - even Boris Selfish Johnson, could not POSSIBLY condone anything but resignation in this situation - it would end his career, regardless of him getting a majority or not - if he loses his seat, his job, and career are gone.

Honestly stick with point one, as you are probably correct - but point two is absurd - he would be tarnished beyond the point of recognition - and in any case when would this by election happen? Would the 'Interim CPL/PM' just turn around in a few months and say - HEY BORIS - YOUR BACK! i kept the chair warm for you!

Joe_ Public

liamtech wrote: »

Well it would be memorable to me along those lines - but i guess thats up for debate

in fairness Raab or IDS would be quality in terms of watching them go down

And yes all i want for christmas... is the new category of Boris Moment - try as i may i cannot think of a term we could use!?

9.1 magnitude political Quake?

I'm just going to go with an old fashioned and basic "just desserts"!

S.M.B.

liamtech wrote: »

AGREE - Extremely unlikely to happen

DISAGREE - there is absolutely no way that a by election would be triggered to Bring Back Boris - honestly, i know you support him but that is perhaps the silliest thing i have ever seen here - nonsense

For a start that would be to inflict a By Election on a constituency for entirely party selfish, or in this case, Boris Selfish Reasons

Secondly the moment he is no longer an MP - the party would have to select a replacement for him as leader of the CP - and ultimately PM of the UK

Thirdly - even Boris Selfish Johnson, could not POSSIBLY condone anything but resignation in this situation - it would end his career, regardless of him getting a majority or not - if he loses his seat, his job, and career are gone.

Honestly stick with point one, as you are probably correct - but point two is absurd - he would be tarnished beyond the point of recognition - and in any case when would this by election happen? Would the 'Interim CPL/PM' just turn around in a few months and say - HEY BORIS - YOUR BACK! i kept the chair warm for you!

There was talk last week that they were strategising what they would do in this scenario and this was what the line of thinking they were reportedly exploring.

liamtech

S.M.B. wrote: »

There was talk last week that they were strategising what they would do in this scenario and this was what the line of thinking they were reportedly exploring.

It wouldnt work - there would be no appetite for it

The best he could hope for would be a peerage, and leader of the CP in the HOL

Hypothetically - BOJO loses his seat

Hunt, or Raab, or perhaps Gove, are in - first as CPL - then assuming a majority - as PM, of a majority Tory Government

To trigger a by election to bring back Boris Johnson, would be to say to the COUNTRY - yes you voted for the Torys - and our policies - and NO ONE in the tory party is capable of actually pulling any of this off - except a man that lost his seat

...

FAR too damning and damaging - Peerage - and thanks from PM Gove for his tiresome work - thats the best he could hope for -

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah agree with you. He's favourite but not a runaway one. Question is how strong is labour candidate there? I know he's had a couple of issues with antisemitic tweets in the past, but thats not really something a guy like johnson can trade strongly on. Uxbridge has a big student population and that could put a bit more of a squeeze on johnson.

It ultimately matters not beyond a bit of humiliation for him. An MP in a safe seat will stand down and he'll be nominated there.

Bannasidhe

liamtech wrote: »

I think i have to stand up for the Lib Dems, but only a bit - only in so far as to say that the Lib Dems USED to be a genuine party, with big ideas, placed at the center between The Tories and Labour- and who's existence epitomized why FPTP is Bad for Britain





This is indefensible behavior - its shocking and it really does beg the question - how bad can they get in terms of this election

But i am going to be more specific in my condemnation - the criticism here has to flow to the TOP - the Lib Dems are being lead by the wrong Leader - and it is a genuine problem because when you look at the party - the only two standouts are Chuka and Luciana - and they are in effect Labour defectees; neither can lead the Lib Dems for at least 5 years - at the very least in my view

For a party that was led by Paddy Ashdown, Charles Kennedy, even Nick Clegg (everyone bemoans Clegg over the coalition but he was a capable leader, and spokesperson for the Lib Dems). So too is Vince Cable IMHO, but not as powerful as the above

But over the past 5 years or so since the Coalition, the Lib Dems have had 3 leaders - one of whom, Vince Cable, was in effect a stand-in as there was no one with any class left at that point

Tim Farron - my view of this man is that he would have made an excellent leader of a political party in the 1950's. He is the LibDem equivalent of Jacob Rees Mogg - that is as an anachronism - he would probably feel more at home in the DUP if im quite honest, his ILLIBERAL views on everything from abortion to gay marriage, and LGBTQ issues in general - how or why or WHAT were they thinking electing this guy (one could also question why he himself felt he was a suitable candidate in the 21st century)

Jo Swinson- it is mistake after mistake, with a type of arrogance that we would be hard faced to find in any other political leader

• obviously really fancies her chances as PM - despite it being obvious to all concerned that there is no possibility
• greatfully accepted Chuka and Lucianna into the Party - two decent Labour MP's - and is now throwing them away by placing both in UNWINNABLE constituencies - literally have a look where they are - the only thing that is guaranteed, is that they will thoroughly split the Left/CenterLeft/Remain votes - and ensure a tory is returned - effectively these former Labour MPS are being used as grenades to be thrown BACK at the Labour party
• the DISASTROUS policy of Revoke Article 50 - i am an ARDENT remainer be in no doubt - but this policy just hands a stick to opponents, to beat the Lib Dems over the head with - and for what~? what benefit is it to the Lib Dems? IF they get a majority (which they wont), they will be have in an UNLiberal UNDemocratic way - totally farce - why have this policy at all??

I feel sorry for the party, i really do. I remember as a teenager watching Ashdown and the like, and having admiration for their skills, and their policies - The Lib Dems are on the Ropes now (rather like the Irish Labour party after Gilmore was ousted, but thats another debate) - I think the best they can do is hold on to a few seats, lose Swinson (would be thrilled for her to lose her seat), and just rebuild if they can -

You and I had our disagreements about the Lib-Dems and Swinson as leader in particular but I have to be honest and say I hoped I was wrong as I think there is space and a need for a centre/centre party in the UK.

I was never an admirer of Ashdown but I think Steele did his country some great service and to see this happen to his party is a genuine shame.

Joe_ Public

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It ultimately matters not beyond a bit of humiliation for him. An MP in a safe seat will stand down and he'll be nominated there.

Well, not sure i go with that. I dont know if its that simple for them, maybe it is, but it would be humiliation on an epic unprecedented scale. I dont know if there would be comeback from that.

sid waddell

None of what's been happening over the course of this campaign is new.

https://twitter.com/_tony_c_/status/1201077826776162304

liamtech

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It ultimately matters not beyond a bit of humiliation for him. An MP in a safe seat will stand down and he'll be nominated there.

honestly i am struggling to understand why anyone thinks this is a remote possibility - if Boris Loses his seat - he is GONE! Honestly anyone, be they Dominic Cummins, or BJ himself, or electioneers - anyone - who is saying that this plan would work, and be accepted - is literally just spinning a yarn to reassure everyone

It would be BEYOND PRECEDENT to trigger a By election just to get Boris Back - perhaps a front bencher who narrowly loses his seat - would be in line if a seat became available - BUT NOT a sitting PM - would never happen

The governments legitimacy would be lost -as would that of the CP and the interim PM -

Can you honestly imagine PM Gove or Raab - thanking the house for its confidence, meeting the queen, having a Queens Speech - and all the way along reminding everyone that they are just keeping Bojos seat warm?

The new Leader of the CP, and possibly PM, would be in charge with absolutely no obligation to do anything - but get on with the Tory manifesto -

Honestly im sure someone is going to post something confirming this spin - but that is all it is - spin - total unadulterated spin

Those that favor Bojo ought just content themselves with the fact that this scenario will never occur as BoJo will probably win his seat - most likely - almost a certainty

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It ultimately matters not beyond a bit of humiliation for him. An MP in a safe seat will stand down and he'll be nominated there.

Maybe ...but how safe is a safe seat if everyone knows that he's being parachuted in for the one and only reason that his own constituents wanted to see the back of him? It might flatter his ego that such a by-election would inevitably become the Boris Election, and the opposition parties would go all out to defeat him. He'd also have absolutely no excuse for not agreeing to interviews when his opponent(s) were taunting him from every side. Imagine the optics of campaigning in a constituency when every other candidate could point to an empty chair, saying "well, at least the chair turned up and didn't tell any lies ..."

But it would be such a delicious spectacle to watch him being defeated a second time on a 52-48 split. :pac:

ancapailldorcha

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well, not sure i go with that. I dont know if its that simple for them, maybe it is, but it would be humiliation on an epic unprecedented scale. I dont know if there would be comeback from that.

We're talking about a man who claims to never have lied despite having been found otherwise in court to say nothing of 2016's 350 million pounds for the NHS bus and whose Wikipedia page lists him as having "5 or 6" children. I think he passed shame a long time ago. It won't stop him.

sid waddell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well, not sure i go with that. I dont know if its that simple for them, maybe it is, but it would be humiliation on an epic unprecedented scale. I dont know if there would be comeback from that.

I don't think even somebody as shameless as Johnson could survive actually losing his seat.

It would be such an unprecedented humiliation that it would effectively finish his political career. He would forever be "the Prime Minister who lost his seat".

He would be completely ridiculed and be a figure of fun forever. He would be, in Trumpish, "a loser", and a loser like nobody else ever before. Viral moments can destroy politicians these days. The announcement of his loss would be the ultimate viral moment. It would follow him around like a bad smell whatever he did after that.

Portillo losing his seat effectively finished him. He did come back into parliament and did run for the leadership in 2001 but was never the same force and lost to the weakest Tory leader in history, Iain Duncan-Smith.

Anyway, Johnson is not going to lose his seat. It just isn't going to happen.

prawnsambo

I thought this might happen alright. Poll published a tad too far out from the election.

hometruths

liamtech wrote: »

I think i have to stand up for the Lib Dems, but only a bit - only in so far as to say that the Lib Dems USED to be a genuine party, with big ideas, placed at the center between The Tories and Labour- and who's existence epitomized why FPTP is Bad for Britain





This is indefensible behavior - its shocking and it really does beg the question - how bad can they get in terms of this election

But i am going to be more specific in my condemnation - the criticism here has to flow to the TOP - the Lib Dems are being lead by the wrong Leader - and it is a genuine problem because when you look at the party - the only two standouts are Chuka and Luciana - and they are in effect Labour defectees; neither can lead the Lib Dems for at least 5 years - at the very least in my view

For a party that was led by Paddy Ashdown, Charles Kennedy, even Nick Clegg (everyone bemoans Clegg over the coalition but he was a capable leader, and spokesperson for the Lib Dems). So too is Vince Cable IMHO, but not as powerful as the above

But over the past 5 years or so since the Coalition, the Lib Dems have had 3 leaders - one of whom, Vince Cable, was in effect a stand-in as there was no one with any class left at that point

Tim Farron - my view of this man is that he would have made an excellent leader of a political party in the 1950's. He is the LibDem equivalent of Jacob Rees Mogg - that is as an anachronism - he would probably feel more at home in the DUP if im quite honest, his ILLIBERAL views on everything from abortion to gay marriage, and LGBTQ issues in general - how or why or WHAT were they thinking electing this guy (one could also question why he himself felt he was a suitable candidate in the 21st century)

Jo Swinson- it is mistake after mistake, with a type of arrogance that we would be hard faced to find in any other political leader

• obviously really fancies her chances as PM - despite it being obvious to all concerned that there is no possibility
• greatfully accepted Chuka and Lucianna into the Party - two decent Labour MP's - and is now throwing them away by placing both in UNWINNABLE constituencies - literally have a look where they are - the only thing that is guaranteed, is that they will thoroughly split the Left/CenterLeft/Remain votes - and ensure a tory is returned - effectively these former Labour MPS are being used as grenades to be thrown BACK at the Labour party
• the DISASTROUS policy of Revoke Article 50 - i am an ARDENT remainer be in no doubt - but this policy just hands a stick to opponents, to beat the Lib Dems over the head with - and for what~? what benefit is it to the Lib Dems? IF they get a majority (which they wont), they will be have in an UNLiberal UNDemocratic way - totally farce - why have this policy at all??

I feel sorry for the party, i really do. I remember as a teenager watching Ashdown and the like, and having admiration for their skills, and their policies - The Lib Dems are on the Ropes now (rather like the Irish Labour party after Gilmore was ousted, but thats another debate) - I think the best they can do is hold on to a few seats, lose Swinson (would be thrilled for her to lose her seat), and just rebuild if they can -

Agree with the above, except I do not damn the revoke the policy like others. In the hands of a capable leader I think it could have worked well, but sadly Swinson was not able to deftly handle the criticism.

A major opportunity for them in this election has been blown by Swinson. A decent leader with a strong campaign result could have forced the big two parties back towards the centre ground which is sorely needed.

sid waddell

prawnsambo wrote: »

I thought this might happen alright. Poll published a tad too far out from the election.

The problem for Labour is the midlands and northern marginals - Ashfield, Bassetlaw, Bolsover, Colne Valley, Penistone and Stocksbridge, Bishop Auckland etc.

I don't see where the votes are coming from. You can dice it up any way you want but the strong likelihood is they are going to be losing a shedload of those seats.

The only hope is that there might be such an institutional memory of the miner's strike etc. hardwired into the people there that they might not be able to bring themselves to physically vote Tory. But I think that isn't the case and Brexit has overtaken it.

Labour are heavily relying on the Lib Dems doing well down south on tactical voting.

hometruths

liamtech wrote: »

in fairness Raab or IDS would be quality in terms of watching them go down

I will certainly not being going to bed anytime before Raab's result - I'd hate to miss it live.

If he were to lose his seat I think he'll also lose his rag and Conservative HQ will be seeking refunds for those expensive anger management classes.

liamtech

sid waddell wrote: »

I don't think even somebody as shameless as Johnson could survive actually losing his seat.

It would be such an unprecedented humiliation that it would effectively finish his political career. He would forever be "the Prime Minister who lost his seat".

He would be completely ridiculed and be a figure of fun forever. He would be, in Trumpish, "a loser", and a loser like nobody else ever before. Viral moments can destroy politicians these days. The announcement of his loss would be the ultimate viral moment. It would follow him around like a bad smell whatever he did after that.

Portillo losing his seat effectively finished him. He did come back into parliament and did run for the leadership in 2001 but was never the same force and lost to the weakest Tory leader in history, Iain Duncan-Smith.

Anyway, Johnson is not going to lose his seat. It just isn't going to happen.

Thank you - honestly - iv posted 4 times on this spin, which i am literally gobsmacked that anyone would endorse, or buy into - this idea is FANTASTICAL and INCREDIBLE in the strictest sense of the words - a fantasy which is not credible!!!

To do what was suggested would turn a localized disaster (sitting PM loses seat) - into a nationwide farce on display to the ENTIRE WORLD!! (UK now being run by lame duck PM - urgently trying to strong arm a back bencher into standing down - so that they can bring back the guy who was rejected in the election)

And how could the government function? and be taken seriously internationally?? the UK and the TORY party would be a laughing stock

Peerage - and cheers for your work - that would be BJ's only pension

Anyway - it wont happen he will retain his seat

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

The problem for Labour is the midlands and northern marginals - Ashfield, Bassetlaw, Bolsover, Colne Valley, Penistone and Stocksbridge, Bishop Auckland etc.

I don't see where the votes are coming from. You can dice it up any way you want but the strong likelihood is they are going to be losing a shedload of those seats.

The only hope is that there might be such an institutional memory of the miner's strike etc. hardwired into the people there that they might not be able to bring themselves to physically vote Tory. But I think that isn't the case and Brexit has overtaken it.

Labour are heavily relying on the Lib Dems doing well down south on tactical voting.

Thats it in a nutshell. If the beast loses out in bolsover, we could be in for a long night.

liamtech

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You and I had our disagreements about the Lib-Dems and Swinson as leader in particular but I have to be honest and say I hoped I was wrong as I think there is space and a need for a centre/centre party in the UK.

I was never an admirer of Ashdown but I think Steele did his country some great service and to see this happen to his party is a genuine shame.

I am shocked by how badly the Lib Dems have been doing - i honestly cannot believe the missteps they have made

We just have to wait and see but Chuka and Lucianna are probably going to lose their seats now - perhaps the Lib Dems get something elsewhere - but why you would risk losing 2 well known articulate politicians, and defectees - unbelievable

I know too that there are plenty of areas where the Lib Dems actually polled strongly last time - ideal seats to place one of the above and give them a STRONG chance of taking a seat

prawnsambo

liamtech wrote: »

• the DISASTROUS policy of Revoke Article 50 - i am an ARDENT remainer be in no doubt - but this policy just hands a stick to opponents, to beat the Lib Dems over the head with - and for what~? what benefit is it to the Lib Dems? IF they get a majority (which they wont), they will be have in an UNLiberal UNDemocratic way - totally farce - why have this policy at all??

I believe the policy came about, because at the time, Labour were still firmly sitting on the fence and there was literally no party for remain bar the SNP in Scotland. And at the time, the clock had run down on the time to hold a referendum before March 29th. Hindsight tells us now that there was plenty of time since May went for an extension, but I remember there was dismay in the remain ranks that there was literally no way back for them bar revocation. Once they had hitched their wagon to revocation, there was no way they could back down from it.

ArmaniJeanss

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

prawnsambo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

Yeah. Labour were stuck between a rock and a hard place there. But they really have only themselves to blame tbh. Corbyn's semi-detached (7/10) approach when campaigning, did not help matters and gave the impression that Labour weren't that fussed either way. They're now pretty much stuck with a 'whatever you're having yourself' brexit policy as a result.

Joe_ Public

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

Plenty of analysts and commentators were talking about big numbers in all fairness so dont believe anybody here should feel embarrassed about any predictions. Don't recall anyone saying they'd beat lab tbh, maybe i missed it. Personally i never liked the policy, but i could see what they were trying to do with it. I thought 45-50 seats sounded realistic. Turns out differently it seems, but hindsight is a great gift to be blessed with!

liamtech

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Labour were stuck between a rock and a hard place there. But they really have only themselves to blame tbh. Corbyn's semi-detached (7/10) approach when campaigning, did not help matters and gave the impression that Labour weren't that fussed either way. They're now pretty much stuck with a 'whatever you're having yourself' brexit policy as a result.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

Well all i can say is that i am a remainer who has strongly criticized both the Lib Dems, and Labour - in fact specifically the Leadership of both parties

Swinson as discussed today

Corbyn for his arguably weak position on brexit
- his refusal to co-operate with other parties (by standing down in favor of the stronger Anti-Brexit/Tory candidates, which could have been contingent on reciprocity, perhaps on a 1:1 basis)

But i am primarily a remainer so i back anyone who supports that view

Joe_ Public

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

Btw, on second point i think I'd agree with you. Fact is, 70% of labour voters voted remain in 2016 so it was never that side of the equation that would be the problem. The guts of that 30% are in those vital leave areas and while a full pivot to remain might have made some gains elsewhere, there isnt a hope in hell they'd have compensated for the midlands and north labour clear out. So i think it can be argued the middle line strategy was possibly the only one that gave them a fighting chance.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Lib Dems have been outflanked by a combination of Farage and Corbyn

I have always known Swinson was Tory lite and that has more to do with the exposure to her in Scotland since the late 2000's. Hopefully Amy Callaghan for the SNP will depose her but the tactical votes from the Tories and Labour will probably see her through

quokula

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm not going to back through 11 Brexit threads, but there was plenty here who thought the Lib Dem Revoke move was a good decision and people were suggesting ridiculous figures about how many seats it might win them. Being the majority party in a coalition with Labour was mooted.

I think it should also be said at a time when Labour is most at risk in leave seats in its heartland, that the fence-sitting on Brexit was probably not as terrible a policy as it seemed at the time.

Yep it's very easy to sit here in Ireland and criticise Labour for not coming out strongly enough for remain, but the fact is that there is a decent majority in critical constituencies in England who are still heavily pro-leave. Worth remembering that the 52-48 referendum result included Scotland, NI and London all strongly tipping the balance towards remain, and with the exception of a few London boroughs those areas are lacking in many Labour marginals, so the constituencies where the election will be won and lost will be predominantly pro-Leave.

I said from the beginning that the A50 revoke position from the Lib Dems was completely unworkable and was only ever used as a cynical attack line against Labour. They've since realised their attempt to pull the wool over voters' eyes hasn't worked and they've had to row back to a more sensible second referendum position.

Labour have been doing the best they can in navigating the reality of Brexit and have for a very long time been the only major UK party offering a serious way forward from the mess while the other parties engage in simplistic soundbites and try to pit remainers and leavers against each other. It hasn't been perfect but it's been the only plausible approach they could take without disenfranchising a large portion of their voters.

It amazes me how trying to take a compromised centre ground on an issue the country is pretty much 50-50 on is so often derided in the press, when really it is the only pragmatic thing to do.

quokula

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The Lib Dems have been outflanked by a combination of Farage and Corbyn

I have always known Swinson was Tory lite and that has more to do with the exposure to her in Scotland since the late 2000's. Hopefully Amy Callaghan for the SNP will depose her but the tactical votes from the Tories and Labour will probably see her through

My experience south of the border is that most Labour supporters have a lot of respect for the SNP and are appalled by Swinson and the direction the Lib Dems have taken, so it's surprising to hear tactical votes might go that way. I guess the independence question trumps other issues in Scotland.

A Dub in Glasgo

It is ABI for the unionist parties in Scotland (Anything But Independence)

The rump that is left of the Labour Party in Scotland is more unionist than socialist

prawnsambo

quokula wrote: »

Yep it's very easy to sit here in Ireland and criticise Labour for not coming out strongly enough for remain, but the fact is that there is a decent majority in critical constituencies in England who are still heavily pro-leave. Worth remembering that the 52-48 referendum result included Scotland, NI and London all strongly tipping the balance towards remain, and with the exception of a few London boroughs those areas are lacking in many Labour marginals, so the constituencies where the election will be won and lost will be predominantly pro-Leave.

I don't disagree with that. It's not a great place to be. But my point is that Labour should have led during the referendum campaign and instead were pretty wishy washy and now are being led by their supporters. I don't see how they can get themselves out of that position.