General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Prime Minister Johnson and his strategic electoral team are most likely, in my view, intentionally misrepresenting the total number of original hospitals that will be built.

Let's not forget that the reason the false "350 million per week" message for the NHS was plucked to precisely cause division and to ensure more people ended up talking about "how much money it costs to be in the EU" - a major strategic advantage for the Leave campaign.

So yes, it appears to be wilfully deceitful. Though, as others here have pointed out, Labour are doing precisely the same thing in their own way. In this sense, they cancel each other out.

I do hope, though, that Johnson comes out on top regardless.

Joe_ Public

Aegir wrote: »

No, you miss the point spectacularly and this is the position labour are in.

Many life long labour supporters voted to leave. You then have Corbin who is also a life long leaver, however, he became leader based on what was pretty much a swell of support from new members based on a social media campaign, but who are also remainers.

This conflict of interest in labour is becoming obvious and has resulted in their poor polling.

You can blame the right wing media, or the serfs wanting to be subservient to their betters or whatever bull**** excuses you like, the reality is people don’t really know who or what labour are at the moment, other than populist.

I dont know what point i am missing tbh. The majority of labour voters were remain in 2016 and that yougov figure is probably accurate imo. Sure, labour lost some to ukip in 2015 but the biggest wipeout came in Scotland which you could assume as a majority remain bloc, so to an extent those 2 factors all but cancelled themselves out.

Anyway, I'm not blaming anybody or making excuses, pejorative or otherwise. This shift in demographics and north/south divide predated corbyn and doesnt seem at all an easy thing to solve imo. Maybe you have a solution you might care to share?

Of course, corbyn has always been of a eurosceptic bent, we all know that. But the irony of it all is that he stands to lose more from it than anybody because, in my view, it is what will keep him out of no.10. No brexit and they are in pole position i believe, you'd still hsve farage sticking his oar in but the tories would get that more than labour.

Aidric

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Of course, corbyn has always been of a eurosceptic bent, we all know that. But the irony of it all is that he stands to lose more from it than anybody because, in my view, it is what will keep him out of no.10. No brexit and they are in pole position i believe, you'd still hsve farage sticking his oar in but the tories would get that more than labour.

A leopard doesn't change its spots. Corbyn is a firm believer in Brexit even though Brexit would be irredeemably damaging to Labour's core support. Labour will gift this election to the tories.

Cody montana

Deleted User wrote: »

We all know that the poster was talking about Labour voters and implied that they were "less educated" i.e. more working class, and so should "obviously" vote for the Labour Party. It doesn't take that much to work out what's going on.

It's sneering, snidey, elitist language which pushed many people to vote Brexit in the first place - namely, this insulting insinuation that they "did not know what they were voting for". You can climb back and hide behind pedantry, that's your choice. But the common reader on here knows exactly the direct implication of the above quotes. It's crystal clear.



Exactly true.

Thanks to the Conservative Party, the economy is not only back on its feet - but actively jumping up and down with excitement.

"The UK economy grew at the slowest annual rate in nearly a decade in the three months to the end of September"

From RTE.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1111/1090010-uk-economic-growth/

Joe_ Public

Aidric wrote: »

A leopard doesn't change its spots. Corbyn is a firm believer in Brexit even though Brexit would be irredeemably damaging to Labour's core support. Labour will gift this election to the tories.

And yet labour will lose the election because leave voters wont support them even though firm brexit believer jeremy corbyn is in charge. How do you make sense of that?

Cody montana

Cody montana wrote: »

"The UK economy grew at the slowest annual rate in nearly a decade in the three months to the end of September"

From RTE.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1111/1090010-uk-economic-growth/

"A mere vote to Leave the EU would trigger economic chaos, an emergency budget and untold, long-term damage to the UK economy".

Flat-out-lies.

The Tories have a better record than the Remain campaign.

Second, the UK is performing better than many EU countries, including Germany. Whilst you can selectively pick-&-mix the statistics that align with your politics, we cannot escape these inescapable facts. When you compare the UK to most European countries, the UK is performing far, far better than the Remain Elite projected.

beggars_bush

Deleted User wrote: »

"A mere vote to Leave the EU would trigger economic chaos, an emergency budget and untold, long-term damage to the UK economy".

Flat-out-lies.

The Tories have a better record than the Remain campaign.

Second, the UK is performing better than many EU countries, including Germany. Whilst you can selectively pick-&-mix the statistics that align with your politics, we cannot escape these inescapable facts. When you compare the UK to most European countries, the UK is performing far, far better than the Remain Elite projected.

Better record at what though?

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

Better record at what though?

Let's be hypothetical for a second.

If Labour were in charge from 2009, and the economy was at the relatively high standing it's at now, would you really argue that Labour were doing a bad job?

I don't believe you, or others, would.

The economy can always be better. That's why it remains a political issue. It doesn't matter how successful Conservative economics is, because Labour can come along and claim it could be better.

It's this lack of objectivity that traverses each page of this thread. Many here are perfectly willing and able and justifiable to point out inconsistencies and issues and problems with Conservative governance. What troubles me is that these same people have a complete blind spot when it comes to Labour and its mistakes and problems and weaknesses.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's be hypothetical for a second.

If Labour were in charge from 2009, and the economy was at the relatively high standing it's at now, would you really argue that Labour were doing a bad job?

I don't believe you, or others, would.

The economy can always be better. That's why it remains a political issue. It doesn't matter how successful Conservative economics is, because Labour can come along and claim it could be better.

It's this lack of objectivity that traverses each page of this thread. Many here are perfectly willing and able and justifiable to point out inconsistencies and issues and problems with Conservative governance. What troubles me is that these same people have a complete blind spot when it comes to Labour and its mistakes and problems and weaknesses.

But the Conservatives HAVE been in power since 2010 and we've seen how utterly incapable and destructive they gave been.

We don't need hypotheticals to see the reality of what austerity did.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But the Conservatives HAVE been in power since 2010 and we've seen how utterly incapable and destructive they gave been.

We don't need hypotheticals to see the reality of what austerity did.

So, you are perfectly willing to ignore the claim, that economic Remainers made that the UK economy - by a mere vote to Leave - would be subject to economic chaos, an emergency budget and so forth? Are you willing to concede this was completely wrong and, as I would suggest, weaponised to ensure the public voted in one direction?

Second, the UK economy is performing better than the EU - including Germany, which is on the verge of recession. After the calamity of 2009+, are you willing to concede that the UK economy, as it stands, is in a relatively powerful position and, perhaps more importantly, more powerful than it was predicted it would be in a post-Leave vote?

You use words such as "destructive" etc. - emotive language. Yet the UK economy is performing comparably exceptionally well.

In other words, what you say does not align with what is happening on the economic ground.

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's be hypothetical for a second.

If Labour were in charge from 2009, and the economy was at the relatively high standing it's at now, would you really argue that Labour were doing a bad job?

I don't believe you, or others, would.

The economy can always be better. That's why it remains a political issue. It doesn't matter how successful Conservative economics is, because Labour can come along and claim it could be better.

It's this lack of objectivity that traverses each page of this thread. Many here are perfectly willing and able and justifiable to point out inconsistencies and issues and problems with Conservative governance. What troubles me is that these same people have a complete blind spot when it comes to Labour and its mistakes and problems and weaknesses.

If you think this thread is a labour love in, then you're obviously not paying attention. I'd say the majority of people here are probably neutral in their uk political preferences and have been very critical of labour and jeremy corbyn in particular. Very fair on most of it, i would think, and also in relation to johnson too.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So, you are perfectly willing to ignore the claim, that economic Remainers made that the UK economy - by a mere vote to Leave - would be subject to economic chaos, an emergency budget and so forth? Are you willing to concede this was completely wrong and, as I would suggest, weaponised to ensure the public voted in one direction?

Second, the UK economy is performing better than the EU - including Germany, which is on the verge of recession. After the calamity of 2009+, are you willing to concede that the UK economy, as it stands, is in a relatively powerful position and, perhaps more importantly, more powerful than it was predicted it would be in a post-Leave vote?

You use words such as "destructive" etc. - emotive language. Yet the UK economy is performing comparably exceptionally well.

In other words, what you say does not align with what is happening on the economic ground.

I'm willing to ignore a hypothetical about party you loathe when the party you support has been in power so long and has demonstrated their (in)ability over the course of 9 and a bit years.

---

What's going to be so great in this majority Conservative governed Utopia that's ahead of us that they couldn't achieve since 2010?

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

If you think this thread is a labour love in, then you're obviously not paying attention. I'd say the majority of people here are probably neutral in their uk political preferences and have been very critical of labour and jeremy corbyn in particular. Very fair on most of it, i would think, and also in relation to johnson too.

Neutral, really?

There is not one Tory supporter here - except me.

And, on here, that's almost as bad as admitting you deny the Holocaust (which I don't, obviously, but you get the idea).

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Neutral, really?

There is not one Tory supporter here - except me.

And, on here, that's almost as bad as admitting you deny the Holocaust.

So we must all be wrong so?

Has it occurred to you that maybe the Tory-world view isn't likely to be that popular on an Irish political forum? I mean, just statistically speaking.

Of course as a Godwin-invoking, gay Irishman supporting the Tories, you are likely aware of statistical anomalies I guess...

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Neutral, really?

There is not one Tory supporter here - except me.

And, on here, that's almost as bad as admitting you deny the Holocaust (which I don't, obviously, but you get the idea).

Neutral in the sense they dont naturally lean to any political party in the uk. I think that probably describes a lot of posters here. If tories insist on lurching towards the far right then its hardly surprising a lot of people here aren't going to find favour with it. Doesnt immediately label them diehard corbynistas.

In terms of the latest Labour spending pledge - a la railways:

https://twitter.com/bencolman09/status/1201625280730800129

Labour live in fantasy spending land.

Next up - free 6-pack of beer for every low-income family in the country. Why not? It's a moral obligation.

Cody montana

Deleted User wrote: »

Neutral, really?

There is not one Tory supporter here - except me.

And, on here, that's almost as bad as admitting you deny the Holocaust (which I don't, obviously, but you get the idea).

I voted conservative when I lived there.

This is an Irish website, most people have zero loyalty to a British political party.
People can make a judgement on a specific party.
The whole Brexit process has been shambolic.
Thus I think the conservatives are woeful.

beggars_bush

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of the latest Labour spending pledge - a la railways:

https://twitter.com/bencolman09/status/1201625280730800129

Labour live in fantasy spending land.

Next up - free 6-pack of beer for every low-income family in the country. Why not? It's a moral obligation.

Except they mainly vote Tory.
For some bizarre reason.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In terms of the latest Labour spending pledge - a la railways:

https://twitter.com/bencolman09/status/1201625280730800129

Labour live in fantasy spending land.

Next up - free 6-pack of beer for every low-income family in the country. Why not? It's a moral obligation.

Like most Tories you obsess over "others".

If Labour's policies are so zany, then surely Tory policies are not and thus, are an easy sell.

So you wouldn't mind highlighting some of the gems that are ahead of us when the Tories win a stonking great majority?

ArmaniJeanss

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of the latest Labour spending pledge - a la railways:

https://twitter.com/bencolman09/status/1201625280730800129

Labour live in fantasy spending land.

Presumably the oil crisis contributed partly to the fare increases, both directly in fuel costs and indirectly in terms of how it fcuked up the wider economy.
Though I admit it's generally accepted that British Rail was a terribly ran company, and too union-controlled.

That however doesn't mean that nationalisation has to be a bad thing.
SNCF and Deutsche Bahn are complicated entities but they are government majority owned and seem to be success stories.
Fairly sure RENFE (Spain) is government owned as well, and in Italy the low-speed lines are nationalised.

So it can work. There's no uniquely British reason I'm aware of that it couldn't work there as well.

And nationalisation would not even be on the agenda if privatisation had proved to be a huge success.

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cameronian Conservatives introduced gay marriage, even though it wasn't in the election manifesto.

Second, it's not about "being wrong". That's not a serious analysis.

It's about objectivity; applying the same standards to your own politics, as you do to politics that you oppose. As long as that standard remains as consistent as possible, I have no issue with an individual being a Labour supporter.

However, what we see here - increasingly - is that Labour errors are explained away or, in some cases, justified or ignored, so that more exposure returns to what the Tories have said or done.

That is just unacceptable - and, dare I say, deluded.



Far right? National socialism? Eugenics? Ethnic genocide?

Really?

Where are the standards, for goodness sake.

Who said you had to be a national socialist to be veering towards the far right? That doesnt mean they are quite there, just thats the direction they are going. A prime minister who openly expresses his support for the right wing thug victor orban. A sexist candidate in ashfield who says that poor people should be kept in tents in fields (why is he being allowed to run?), a home secretary who has said she supports the death penalty, numerous candidates retweeting provocative tommy robinson tweets.

Thats a few off top of my head and we haven't even touched on islamaphobia.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Neutral in the sense they dont naturally lean to any political party in the uk. I think that probably describes a lot of posters here. If tories insist on lurching towards the far right then its hardly surprising a lot of people here aren't going to find favour with it. Doesnt immediately label them diehard corbynistas.

I would say Irish people are neutral enough at the moment. There would be a tendency in the past for people to have leaned towards Labour perhaps instead of the more right wing and conservative Tories but Jeremy Corbyn is simply not popular in Ireland, especially for the way he has failed to oppose Brexit.

Most popular UK politician in Ire is almost certainly Nicola Sturgeon.

Professor Moriarty

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Presumably the oil crisis contributed partly to the fare increases, both directly in fuel costs and indirectly in terms of how it fcuked up the wider economy.
Though I admit it's generally accepted that British Rail was a terribly ran company, and too union-controlled.

That however doesn't mean that nationalisation has to be a bad thing.
SNCF and Deutsche Bahn are complicated entities but they are government majority owned and seem to be success stories.
Fairly sure RENFE (Spain) is government owned as well, and in Italy the low-speed lines are nationalised.

So it can work. There's no uniquely British reason I'm aware of that it couldn't work there as well.

And nationalisation would not even be on the agenda if privatisation had proved to be a huge success.

Privatisation has been a huge success. For shareholders. I wonder do any of those shareholders donate to the Tory Party?

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Who said you had to be a national socialist to be veering towards the far right? That doesnt mean they are quite there, just thats the direction they are going. A prime minister who openly expresses his support for the right wing thug victor orban. A sexist candidate in ashfield who says that poor people should be kept in tents in fields (why is he being allowed to run?), a home secretary who has said she supports the death penalty, numerous candidates retweeting provocative tommy robinson tweets.

Thats a few off top of my head and we haven't even touched on islamaphobia.

It's complete nonsense.

• "Expresses support" for Victor Orban is not a "far-right" issue.
• Sexism exists in every party, at every level, in every place.
• Even if a few candidates RT that idiot Robinson, it doesn't make the entire Tory party and its supporters "far right".
• Death penalty? I'd say that should be imposed on lunatic Islamic fascists myself.

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's complete nonsense.

• "Expresses support" for Victor Orban is not a "far-right" issue.
• Sexism exists in every party, at every level, in every place.
• Even if a few candidates RT that idiot Robinson, it doesn't make the entire Tory party and its supporters "far right".
• Death penalty? I'd say that should be imposed on lunatic Islamic fascists myself.

Proroguing parliament illegally, pitting people v parliament, threatening public tv stations with their remit if they dont play ball - there's a long list of things i could muster to describe this obvious sharp swing to the right.

As phillip Hammond said when he and other moderates were being effectively purged, "Nor will I have my party taken from me by entryists and usurpers who have infiltrated the party ranks, in an attempt to turn it into an extreme right-wing faction."

Look, if you want balance labour have a few nutters gone off to the other side, thats indisputable too.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of the latest Labour spending pledge - a la railways:

[/I]

Government policy since Blair has been to push the majority of spending on the railways to the farepayer over the taxpayer. This has been supported and continued by the Tories... that is why the cost to the farepayer is so high

Joe_ Public

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Proroguing parliament illegally, pitting people v parliament, threatening public tv stations with their remit if they dont play ball - there's a long list of things i could muster to describe this obvious sharp swing to the right.

Unlawful is not the same as illegal. Moreover, the attorney general claimed, at the time, it was lawful. Not Johnson's fault.

People versus parliament was instigated by Remainers who refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

Yes, Channel 4 was overtly biased and contravened its remit. It must be apprehended for its violation of laws relating to media bias.

Continue the long list; it still won't resemble the Fourth Reich and the far-right fanaticism you maniacally attribute to the modern, One Nation Conservative Party.

BonnieSituation

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's irrelevant what country the discussion is held, what matters is that political consistency is upheld.

If a poster holds the Labour Party to a different standard to the Conservative Party, that matters - and it should be pointed out.

People accuse the BBC of bias, whilst forgetting the bias that they themselves hold. They see it in others, except themselves.

I hold the "One Nation" Conservative and Unionist Party to such a slow standard though. I expect so little of them.

So I guess you are correct.

---

In case you missed my question:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Like most Tories you obsess over "others".

If Labour's policies are so zany, then surely Tory policies are not and thus, are an easy sell.

So you wouldn't mind highlighting some of the gems that are ahead of us when the Tories win a stonking great majority?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Unlawful is not the same as illegal. Moreover, the attorney general claimed, at the time, it was lawful. Not Johnson's fault.

People versus parliament was instigated by Remainers who refuse to accept the result of the 2016 referendum.

Yes, Channel 4 was overtly biased and contravened its remit. It must be apprehended for its violation of laws relating to media bias.

Continue the long list; it still won't resemble the Fourth Reich and the far-right fanaticism you maniacally attribute to the modern, One Nation Conservative Party.

Oh Christ. You are arguing semantics. Unlawful as not authorized by law, illegal. Illegal is defined as forbidden by law, unlawful. Semantically, there is a slight difference. It seems that something illegal is expressly proscribed by statute, and something unlawful is just not expressly authorised.

The UK is a shambles and I fear for their economy if the conservatives get a majority and the inevitable no deal.

hometruths

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Like most Tories you obsess over "others".

If Labour's policies are so zany, then surely Tory policies are not and thus, are an easy sell.

So you wouldn't mind highlighting some of the gems that are ahead of us when the Tories win a stonking great majority?

The Tories have no polices at all (other than Get Brexit Done) let alone any gems.

They have obviously decide their best election strategy is say or do nothing, make no commitments on anything, avoid leaders debates etc and pray they can get through the election campaign without too many gaffes and thus secure their majority.

We can mock that all we like and comment intelligently about awful it makes the Tories etc etc etc.

But the fact remains that the polls and the bookies still think most likely outcome is a Tory majority.

If that is indeed the outcome and the Tories manage to win a majority based on thin and air waffle who is to blame?

I'd say principally Labour for their utter lack of credible opposition.