General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

prawnsambo

quokula wrote: »

Since the referendum they've turned a Tory majority into a Tory minority, they've seen off Theresa May and inflicted historically unprecedented large and numerous defeats on the government party in parliament, who have as yet failed to get their Brexit policy through, hence calling another election which may ultimately result in a Labour government that is promising a second referendum. If that's not opposition I'm not sure what is.

The Tories have turned a majority into a minority. Theresa May called an election when she said she wouldn't and Labour got a fillip on the basis of a new leader. And "seeing off Theresa May" is not something that Labour can or should take credit for. Failing to get brexit through is a feature of brexit, not of the opposition. Labour have backed every step in the process up to May's WA which they didn't even impose a three line whip on. That's not opposition, it's facilitation.

trellheim

Anyone got any idea of Dom Cummings strategy here - will it be flood facebook in the last couple of days again ?

prawnsambo

trellheim wrote: »

Anyone got any idea of Dom Cummings strategy here - will it be flood facebook in the last couple of days again ?

Yeah. Apparently 30% of their budget is being held back for the last two days.

CelticRambler

robinph wrote: »

To think that threatening damage to yourself so that the other party doesn't get damaged is a negotiating position is up there with the daftest ideas that anyone has ever had. The opposition parties shouldn't have let the claim of no deal being better than a deal slide, and they shouldn't have let the claim that it was a valid way of negotiating something pass either.

Remember, though, that the Opposition, i.e. Labour, is born and bred in the same tradition of us vs. them as the Conservatives, where every "negotiation" is conducted more as a battle to be fought/an enemy to be defeated than an attempt to find constructive win-win consensus. This failure to understand that most of the rest of Europe works by, and is stronger because of, consensual governance is at the heart of the failure of the Brexit process ... and I think the full severity of that failure won't become evident for another few years yet.

robinph

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. Apparently 30% of their budget is being held back for the last two days.

Needs a ddos attack on Facebook over the last couple of days.

Yet more evidence that Donald Trump is not interested in the NHS.

Johnson reiterating the same, that the NHS is not up-for-sale in any future trade arrangement.

True, Johnson and Trump have lied in the past, but so do all politicians. It doesn't mean that everything they say is a lie. In the case of the NHS, it's too intertwined with the UK electorate that it will never be up-for-sale.

Corbyn is peddling fear for votes.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet more evidence that Donald Trump is not interested in the NHS.

Johnson reiterating the same, that the NHS is not up-for-sale in any future trade arrangement.

True, Johnson and Trump have lied in the past, but so do all politicians. It doesn't mean that everything they say is a lie. In the case of the NHS, it's too intertwined with the UK electorate that it will never be up-for-sale.

Corbyn is peddling fear for votes.

How on earth can you seriously consider this evidence?

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet more evidence that Donald Trump is not interested in the NHS.

Johnson reiterating the same, that the NHS is not up-for-sale in any future trade arrangement.

True, Johnson and Trump have lied in the past, but so do all politicians. It doesn't mean that everything they say is a lie. In the case of the NHS, it's too intertwined with the UK electorate that it will never be up-for-sale.

Corbyn is peddling fear for votes.

Sounds more like he's talking about the US health system than the NHS in that response. But of course he doesn't want anything to do with the NHS, that is socialism and therefore evil. What he want's is to setup a private healthcare system in the UK and have the NHS just disappear. Nothing in what he said would make me feel safer about the NHS under the watch of Johnson and Trump.

Also note that Trump didn't even make it through a complete sentence without lying in that press conference as he stated he wasn't going to get involved in the election, but Boris is great.

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Also note that Trump didn't even make it through a complete sentence without lying in that press conference as he stated he wasn't going to get involved in the election, but Boris is great.

He didn't get involved.

He merely added that he thinks Boris is a great guy. He didn't say that anyone should vote for Boris.

Furthermore, Trump also stated that "he could work with Corbyn". Same thing, it's not an endorsement of Corbyn either.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet more evidence that Donald Trump is not interested in the NHS.

Johnson reiterating the same, that the NHS is not up-for-sale in any future trade arrangement.

True, Johnson and Trump have lied in the past, but so do all politicians. It doesn't mean that everything they say is a lie. In the case of the NHS, it's too intertwined with the UK electorate that it will never be up-for-sale.

Corbyn is peddling fear for votes.

Do you find it in any way troubling, that to back up your points, you have to cite Donald Trump? The Climate Change Denying, Possibly Soon to be Impeached, Wall Building, White Supremacist Courting, President of the United States?? Who abolished Obama Care? Is this not scraping the bucket at this stage?? The republican party in the US, at this point after the Tea Party and now Trump, make the Tory party look like Social democrats

There are clear plans to allow the US pharma industry into the UK after brexit - it will be part of the glorious trade deal Johnson wants to sign post brexit - you know, the trade deal that will take about 7 years to negotiate. VERY CLEAR, to ANYONE with a political experience or knowledge that

• a call was put in to the white house
• probably involved about 30 minutes of explaining to Trump WHAT the NHS is
• Urging him to deny everything

And you get the usual Trump-Esque Response where by he talks about how he is going to 'HAVE GREAT I]insert topic under discussion[/I

robinph

Deleted User wrote: »

He didn't get involved.

He merely added that he thinks Boris is a great guy. He didn't say that anyone should vote for Boris.

Furthermore, Trump also stated that "he could work with Corbyn". Same thing, it's not an endorsement of Corbyn either.

I suppose him saying that he's "a fan of Brexit and I called it the day before" is him also staying out of the election and not lying as well?

quokula

Trump's answer was kind of bizarre. He seems to think that Britain is worried about him importing the NHS system to the US, rather than worried about bits of it being privatised and being sold to US firms to run and US pharmaceutical companies given preferential terms on drug pricing.

I can't tell if he was feigning ignorance or just genuinely ignorant. It's already clear that the NHS is on the table in those other ways, which will be handled by US negotiators rather than the president personally (who may not even be president by the time negotiations begin, though a democrat administration will be no less cutthroat).

It was amusing to see how opposed he was to the idea of free healthcare ever making its way to America though, and how proud he was of lots of people having private insurance.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

Do you find it in any way troubling, that to back up your points, you have to cite Donald Trump? The Climate Change Denying, Possibly Soon to be Impeached, Wall Building, White Supremacist Courting, President of the United States?? Who abolished Obama Care? Is this not scraping the bucket at this stage?? The republican party in the US, at this point after the Tea Party and now Trump, make the Tory party look like Social democrats

I'm quite a fan of Donald Trump. I don't agree with him on everything, of course, but broadly speaking, as a political operator, I'm quite a fan.

I think his political approach should be adopted more broadly. More importantly, he is delivering on many of the pledges made during his campaign. Whether we agree with those pledges or not, he was democratically elected to deliver on those pledges. That's also rare for a politician. In Obama, all we had was a pretty decent orator and part-time warmonger.

Wisely, Trump is not getting too involved with this election campaign.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Unless Donald J Trump is on the ballot paper for Dunny on the Wold or the like, then his merits or otherwise are not up for debate on this thread. He is only relevant insofar as his visit or statements on the NHS could affect the election.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm quite a fan of Donald Trump. I don't agree with him on everything, of course, but broadly speaking, as a political operator, I'm quite a fan.

I think his political approach should be adopted more broadly. More importantly, he is delivering on many of the pledges made during his campaign. Whether we agree with those pledges or not, he was democratically elected to deliver on those pledges. That's also rare for a politician. In Obama, all we had was a pretty decent orator and part-time warmonger.

Wisely, Trump is not getting too involved with this election campaign.

Well i would love to be shocked but - not really - Farage, Trump, Johnson - Birds of a feather

If you are arguing that the 'Trying to sell the NHS' line is being run for political mileage, you wont find me disagreeing

Just as the 'Antisemitism in Labour, Jews not Safe under Corbyn' line is also being run

The difference is that there is EVIDENCE that suggests the former is a real possibility - while the later is total spin based on several 'instances' of arguably mild antisemitism - im not going to open up the Antisemitism V Israel FP debate again at this stage

But the evidence of US Pharma's interest in UK markets is a point to discuss

As to your admiration of Donald Trump - and his political approach being good in your view - well, we can find some good in all political movements - Didnt Adolf Hitler build Autobans, and put tens of thousands of Germans back to work in the 30s??

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

If you are arguing that the 'Trying to sell the NHS' line is being run for political mileage, you wont find me disagreeing

Just as the 'Antisemitism in Labour, Jews not Safe under Corbyn' line is also being run

The difference is that there is EVIDENCE that suggests the former is a real possibility - while the later is total spin based on several 'instances' of arguably mild antisemitism - im not going to open up the Antisemitism V Israel FP debate again at this stage

But the evidence of US Pharma's interest in UK markets is a point to discuss

We agree that the NHS is being politicised by Labour.

I'm just going one step further - namely, that I simply do not believe that mass privatisation will take place. There may be discussions on medicine pricing, but that happens already anyway and between all countries and with the EU. There's no surprise about that.

But this fearmongering idea that the NHS will disappear under the Tories, when, for the past 10 years, no such precedent has been made, is an absurdity and clearly manufactured for electoral reasons.

Can I prove this to be the case? No. But neither can you. I am basing my belief on precedent, on the value of the NHS to the electorate, and the realistic conclusion that any party who did sell the NHS en masse would face electoral oblivion. No UK party is that stupid.

SaintLeibowitz

There's something really insane about asking people to trust the word of a man with over 13,000 false or misleading claims.

liamtech

Deleted User wrote: »

We agree that the NHS is being politicised by Labour.

I'm just going one step further - namely, that I simply do not believe that mass privatisation will take place. There may be discussions on medicine pricing, but that happens already anyway and between all countries and with the EU. There's no surprise about that.

But this fearmongering idea that the NHS will disappear under the Tories, when, for the past 10 years, no such precedent has been made, is an absurdity and clearly manufactured for electoral reasons.

Can I prove this to be the case? No. But neither can you. I am basing my belief on precedent, on the value of the NHS to the electorate, and the realistic conclusion that any party who did sell the NHS en masse would face electoral oblivion. No UK party is that stupid.

Well firstly this is an election - everything is politicized. NHS, Islamophobia, Antisemitism, Homophobia, racism, et al

Where we could agree is this:

Is the NHS going to be completely sold and privatized? NO - i have seen no evidence of this

Is the NHS going to be UNDERMINED by US Big Pharma, during a trade deal with the US, whereby Big Pharma will be given EXCLUSIVE access for certain high cost medications. Which in turn will add to the cost of the NHS as a whole - EVERY CHANCE this will happen. That is the evidence we have to date, and it demonstrates that the interest is there, from US Big Pharma to gain access to, what for them, is a COMPLETELY NEW market - and a new chance to increase profits

This will be a component of the US-UK deal which Johnson hopes to negotiate post brexit - and while it wont see the NHS SOLD - it will see the NHS HOLLOWED OUT financially - and those costs will have to be paid for through either more funding - which will cost the tax payer - or passed directly on to punters in the form of a prescription levy, or something of the sort - which they already have to a certain extent but it would be much higher. And the Torys will SPIN this fact by saying, well, we have the best possible medication for British citizens, and while there is a cost, we think its worth paying

Compare that to Corbyn on the NHS - he wishes to create

• A State Owned Pharma company which will buy the rights to medications, produce them in house, and sell them at cost to the NHS -
• This creates a new state Asset- creates Jobs - and helps add further funding to NHS Doctors and Nurses by reducing the Cost of Medication

Bannasidhe

The Independent Press Standards Organisation has upheld a complaint against The Jewish Chronicle.

Apparently that particular publication has not been telling the truth about alleged antisemitism in the Labour Party.

https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=01740-19

ancapailldorcha

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Independent Press Standards Organisation has upheld a complaint against The Jewish Chronicle.

Apparently that particular publication has not been telling the truth about alleged antisemitism in the Labour Party.

https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=01740-19

It's worse than that though. Now that they've been happy to play the antisemitism card to support the Conservatives, people will now be less likely to believe them when they report on genuine antisemitism in future. Ditto for Ephraim Mirvis.

Joe_ Public

In other news, ofcom dismiss the conservatives complaint against C4 over the climate debate but i dont think anyone is shocked by that.

A Dub in Glasgo

This snippet does not bode well for Labour. I am amazed at some of the statements from that group

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1201816755829641218

ancapailldorcha

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This snippet does not bode well for Labour. I am amazed at some of the statements from that group

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1201816755829641218

Labour leavers will be the ones deciding this election. They have to decide what their priority is, a Labour government or Brexit and it looks like they are plumping for the latter.

liamtech

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's worse than that though. Now that they've been happy to play the antisemitism card to support the Conservatives, people will now be less likely to believe them when they report on genuine antisemitism in future. Ditto for Ephraim Mirvis.

MASSIVELY IMPORTANT point there - Crying Wolf on something like Antisemitism is dangerous for exactly this reason

I believe too that, diluting the meaning of the word Antisemitism, that is, to apply it improperly, is to damage the fight against true antisemitism, and outright hatred of jewish people. Hypothetically, to have a vocal critic of Israel in one hand, and someone who wishes to see Israel and Jewish people 'wiped out', in the other - and to brand both as antisemitic - totally undermines who is the real threat to decency.

Bannasidhe

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This snippet does not bode well for Labour. I am amazed at some of the statements from that group

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1201816755829641218

I watched that with horror last night.
Not that people didn't wish to vote Labour ( I often did not vote LP while living in the UK) but at how the demonstrable lies of the Leave campaign were being trotted out at the reason some of them are pro-Brexit. One woman actually mentioned that bus and it's misleading slogan about the (alleged) £350m for the NHS.
She believes that's true...:eek:

Bannasidhe

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's worse than that though. Now that they've been happy to play the antisemitism card to support the Conservatives, people will now be less likely to believe them when they report on genuine antisemitism in future. Ditto for Ephraim Mirvis.

Meanwhile over in Torydom

More than a dozen Conservative councillors who were suspended over posting Islamophobic or racist content online – with some describing Saudis as “sand peasants” and sharing material comparing Asian people to dogs – have had their membership quietly reinstated, a Guardian investigation has found.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/24/tory-islamophobia-row-15-suspended-councillors-quietly-reinstated?fbclid=IwAR2O_d_deXC0kVhlOmVDM2Bt_8KI2Oxob_EyfIWPa-HDGYLk94-e2S_aa74

Racism?
Islamophobia?

Look - Corbyn... antisemitic...m'kay.

Letwin_Larry

Corbyn beginning to look sillier and flakier than usual.
He says he's gonna confront Donald tonight.
First he was offended by the lies that Trump wanted to get his hands on the NHS.
Now that that untruth has been quashed, he's offended because Trump doesn't want their NHS.

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

Is the NHS going to be UNDERMINED by US Big Pharma, during a trade deal with the US, whereby Big Pharma will be given EXCLUSIVE access for certain high cost medications. Which in turn will add to the cost of the NHS as a whole - EVERY CHANCE this will happen. That is the evidence we have to date, and it demonstrates that the interest is there, from US Big Pharma to gain access to, what for them, is a COMPLETELY NEW market - and a new chance to increase profits

of course it isn't a completely new market. Where do you think the NHS buys its drugs currently?

liamtech

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Meanwhile over in Torydom

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/24/tory-islamophobia-row-15-suspended-councillors-quietly-reinstated?fbclid=IwAR2O_d_deXC0kVhlOmVDM2Bt_8KI2Oxob_EyfIWPa-HDGYLk94-e2S_aa74

Racism?
Islamophobia?

Look - Corbyn... antisemitic...m'kay.

Yea its shocking - dont get me wrong, the UK media is not as bad as the US version - i dont think there is a UK version of FOX news (yet)

But there is a bias, not necessarily against Labour, but certainly against Corbyn. I for one am somebody who has criticized Corbyn heavily in this thread - and over on Brexit thread. But it does make me uncomfortable, which is why i often include an FYI in my Corbyn Critical Posts.

In a Nutshell my criticism of Corbyn is over what i see as political mistakes- that damage labour (brexit policy, total refusal to Pact/Cooperate with other parties, scrapping private schools, the Andrew Neil Interview, et al.. any questions just read my posts:D ) - but they are not outright criticisms of Corbyn's over arching political view - nor are they criticisms of the UK labour party - (the irish labour party - trust me at the next election i may get a warning over what i will say about Champagne Socialism in Ireland)

I criticize Corbyn, because with a few tweaks, and some pragmatism Labour could be WINNING THIS - but he refuses to budge

The media criticize and lampoon Corbyn because they want him to fail - and because it gets a laugh - and that is wrong

ancapailldorcha

Aegir wrote: »

of course it isn't a completely new market. Where do you think the NHS buys its drugs currently?

It buys them wholesale at a significant discount though and this is what US Pharma firms detest. It will still be free at the point of use but by being made to pay the US's bloated drug prices, there'll be a lot less to go around.