General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Strazdas

Many pundits and journalists on Twitter saying they think the Neil broadside is very damaging to Johnson and not just a 'five minute wonder'.

Shelga

Slightly off-topic but I really hate how Farage says “Mrs May” and “Monsieur Barnier”.

LuckyLloyd

Strazdas wrote: »

Many pundits and journalists on Twitter saying they think the Neil broadside is very damaging to Johnson and not just a 'five minute wonder'.

Telegraph not reporting it so I assume it is.

beggars_bush

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s a completely damning indictment on UK society that they are about to elect a lying coward as PM, by a landslide no less. Neil’s words tough but appropriate.

I discovered years ago, that generally people in the UK don't care. They can have unbelievable tunnel vision about things

splinter65

The City boys/gals have decided that the Torys have it with a healthy majority.
Surge in the £ against the $ overnight. They only play to win. We’ll have to wait and see. It isn’t over till this time next week exactly.
Ms Swinsons had a nightmare. What a rotten experience.

beggars_bush

basically everyone has to call Johnson a chicken for the next week.

Letwin_Larry

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that there are two factors.

The first is that Boris Johnson has, according to Sir John Curtice exhausted his supply of leave votes. His vote share won't be increasing. The question is whether or not Lib Dem voters can bear to vote for Labour in key seats.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, how much do Labour's Northern post-industrial base want Brexit? So much so that they are willing to vote for the most elitist and overtly anti working class Tory leader I think we've ever seen? Polls seem to indicate that this is certainly a possibility.

Ultimately, time will tell. We have another week to go.

interestingly Newsnight is tonight in Wakefield, and SkyNews was earlier also in a Northern constituency talking to what normally would be Lab voters. a large proportion of them seem ready to ditch Lab in favour of "Getting Brexit Done".
not scientific i know, but my guess is Boris will do well in these areas especially amongst older voters.

Professor Moriarty

beggars_bush wrote: »

basically everyone has to call Johnson a chicken for the next week.

Johnson is a chicken.

sid waddell

Strazdas wrote: »

Many pundits and journalists on Twitter saying they think the Neil broadside is very damaging to Johnson and not just a 'five minute wonder'.

Nah. Brexit is a cult of self-destruction and what we're witnessing with Johnson is in the same vein.

The UK media is out of control and a rare interjection of sanity by Neil won't make a blind bit of difference.

Again, the lessons of the US should tell us what's happening.

Professor Moriarty

sid waddell wrote: »

Nah. Brexit is a cult of self-destruction and what we're witnessing with Johnson is in the same vein.

The UK media is out of control and a rare interjection of sanity by Neil won't make a blind bit of difference.

Again, the lessons of the US should tell us what's happening.

Reading the questions, it still makes Johnson look weak dishonest and cowardly. From The New European report:


"He went on to explain to viewers what they could have expected from such an interview with Johnson.

He said: "The theme running through our questions is trust and why so many times in his career in politics and journalism, critics - and sometimes even those close to him - have deemed him to be untrustworthy.

"It is of course relevant to what he is promising us all now."

He continued to even give the politicians a hint of the type of questions he can expect.

He said: "It is not too late. We have an interview prepared. Oven-ready, as Mr Johnson likes to say.

"Can he be trusted to deliver 50,000 more nurses when almost 20,000 in his numbers are already working for the NHS?

"He promises 40 new hospitals. But only six are scheduled to be built by 2025.

"Can he be believed when he claims another 34 will be built in the five years after that?

"Can be trusted to fund the NHS properly? When he uses a cash figure of an extra £34bn. After inflation the additional money promised amounts to £20bn.

"He vows the NHS will not be on the table in any trade talks with America. But he vowed to the DUP, his Unionist allies in Northern Ireland, that there would never be a border down the Irish sea.

"That is as important to the DUP as the NHS is to the rest of us. It is a vow his Brexit deal would seem to break.

"Now he tells us he's always been an opponent of austerity. We would ask for evidence of that. And we would want to know why an opponent of austerity would bake so much of it into their future spending plans.

"We would ask why, as with the proposed increase in police numbers, so many of his promises only take us back to the future. Back to where we were before austerity began.

"Social care is an issue of growing concern. On the steps of Downing Street in July he said he'd prepared a plan for social care. We'd ask him why that plan is not in his manifesto."

The presenter went on to concede that he expected the interview would not happen.

He said: "Questions of trust. Questions we'd like to put to Mr Johnson so you can hear his replies. But we can't. Because he won't sit down with us.

"There is no law, there is no Supreme Court ruling that can force Mr Johnson to participate in a BBC leaders' interview. But the prime minister of our nation will have to stand up at times to President Trump, President Putin, President Xi of China.

"So it was surely not expecting too much that he spend half an hour standing up to me.""

sid waddell

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

interestingly Newsnight is tonight in Wakefield, and SkyNews was earlier also in a Northern constituency talking to what normally would be Lab voters. a large proportion of them seem ready to ditch Lab in favour of "Getting Brexit Done".
not scientific i know, but my guess is Boris will do well in these areas especially amongst older voters.

It's not interesting at all actually. Pretty much every political vox pop we've seen over the last few years is pushing the same right-wing narrative.

2019’s former Labour voter in a northern marginal who will vote Tory this time stereotype is 2018’s “Get on with it” stereotype, who was 2017’s former Labour voter in a north midlands marginal who will vote Tory this time stereotype, who was late 2016’s Trump voter in West Virginia stereotype, who was earlier 2016’s “take back control” stereotype, who was 2015’s “white van man” stereotype, and on and on and on.

These are always the literal narratives being pushed by right-wing political parties and the media always runs with them.

It would be nice to get a bit more diversity of opinion. We don't get many vox pops from, say Brixton or Bethnal Green, or estates in Bolton or Bradford with high populations of ethnic Pakistanis.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

interestingly Newsnight is tonight in Wakefield, and SkyNews was earlier also in a Northern constituency talking to what normally would be Lab voters. a large proportion of them seem ready to ditch Lab in favour of "Getting Brexit Done".
not scientific i know, but my guess is Boris will do well in these areas especially amongst older voters.

I listened to the elderly lady in wakefield, lifelong labour voter, nostalgiac for the old way of life when the place was a hive of industry and activity. Now it was all gone, destroyed and she had no doubt who was to blame - labour. Nothing to do with austerity, thatcher. All labours fault. Thats the kind of thing you're up against.

sid waddell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Reading the questions, it still makes Johnson look weak dishonest and cowardly. From The New European report:
[/I]

Of course it does - if you're living in a world where objective truths matter.

Tory supporters in this election are not.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I listened to the elderly lady in wakefield, lifelong labour voter, nostalgiac for the old way of life when the place was a hive of industry and activity. Now it was all gone, destroyed and she had no doubt who was to blame - labour. Nothing to do with austerity, thatcher. All labours fault. Thats the kind of thing you're up against.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It’s a completely damning indictment on UK society that they are about to elect a lying coward as PM, by a landslide no less. Neil’s words tough but appropriate.

a lot of what Corbyn advocates i strongly agree with, health service, education, investment in infrastructure.

the problem is, all of these are long term solutions, whereas Brexit is (wrongly imo) viewed as a quick-fix. voters nowadays (probably always) want immediate solutions. Brexit is NOT it, but the electorate think it is, or are about to be duped into thinking it is the solution to their ills.

Professor Moriarty

sid waddell wrote: »

Of course it does - if you're living in a world where objective truths matter.

Tory supporters in this election are not.

Agreed. What matters most now is to get Brexit done. Everything else is just wrapping.

Letwin_Larry

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Agreed. What matters most now is to get Brexit done. Everything else is just wrapping.

this election is going to mirror Trump's victory is so many ways it's unnerving.

Blue collar workers/working class Northerners about to ditch their traditional voting habits/loyalties in favour of a chancer/spoofer promising a return to the good ole days.
Throw in a bit of casual racism, fear of the foreigner, misogyny, and prejudice and a sprinkling of charisma, and there you have it.

Actually here's one i prepared earlier ...

Professor Moriarty

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

this election is going to mirror Trump's victory is so many ways it's unnerving.

Blue collar workers/working class Northerners about to ditch their traditional voting habits/loyalties in favour of a chancer/spoofer promising a return to the good ole days.
Throw in a bit of casual racism, fear of the foreigner, misogyny, and prejudice and a sprinkling of charisma, and there you have it.

Actually here's one i prepared earlier ...

Spot on. Oven ready.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I listened to the elderly lady in wakefield, lifelong labour voter, nostalgiac for the old way of life when the place was a hive of industry and activity. Now it was all gone, destroyed and she had no doubt who was to blame - labour. Nothing to do with austerity, thatcher. All labours fault. Thats the kind of thing you're up against.

Prime Time had a lot of UK vox pops too : one guy said he wanted to see the Channel Tunnel shut down (!)

The thing that came across was how divided the population are, opinions are all over the place : some people love Johnson, some despise him, ditto with Corbyn. Not much centre ground or moderate opinions.

Shelga

Watching Question Time. The UK is beyond doomed.

I'm sorry, but if people do not have the wherewithal or intelligence to question the utter, UTTER drivel they are being fed by the likes of James Cleverly, then nothing more can be done. It matters not what anyone with any integrity says anymore. The only response audience members have is:

Get on with it
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done
17.4 million people
We already voted
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done

I continue to be amazed and frightened at how low people's threshold of attention is. (That's me trying to be nice). The last 3.5 years have been a true education on the power of propaganda and the media.

I despair.

Professor Moriarty

Shelga wrote: »

Watching Question Time. The UK is beyond doomed.

I'm sorry, but if people do not have the wherewithal or intelligence to question the utter, UTTER drivel they are being fed by the likes of James Cleverly, then nothing more can be done. It matters not what anyone with any integrity says anymore. The only response audience members have is:

Get on with it
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done
17.4 million people
We already voted
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done

I continue to be amazed and frightened at how low people's threshold of attention is. (That's me trying to be nice). The last 3.5 years have been a true education on the power of propaganda and the media.

I despair.

I stopped watching QT a long time ago. Depressing stuff.

Letwin_Larry

Shelga wrote: »

Watching Question Time. The UK is beyond doomed.

I'm sorry, but if people do not have the wherewithal or intelligence to question the utter, UTTER drivel they are being fed by the likes of James Cleverly, then nothing more can be done. It matters not what anyone with any integrity says anymore. The only response audience members have is:

Get on with it
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done
17.4 million people
We already voted
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done

I continue to be amazed and frightened at how low people's threshold of attention is. (That's me trying to be nice). The last 3.5 years have been a true education on the power of propaganda and the media.

I despair.

i take it you have not holidayed on the Costas in the last 20 years ....

please Mods i am being totally serious. i am not trying to be smarmy.

boggerman1

Ian black ford is impressive on qt.otherwise the English are doomed and deserve everything that’s coming their way in the post Brexit utopia to come.and Fiona Bruce is a useless presenter

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

this election is going to mirror Trump's victory is so many ways it's unnerving.

Blue collar workers/working class Northerners about to ditch their traditional voting habits/loyalties in favour of a chancer/spoofer promising a return to the good ole days.
Throw in a bit of casual racism, fear of the foreigner, misogyny, and prejudice and a sprinkling of charisma, and there you have it.

Actually here's one i prepared earlier ...

I rather think you might be close to the mark there. I still hold there's a reasonable chance the tories might fall just short of a majority but i wouldnt be betting heavily on it.

Strazdas

Shelga wrote: »

Watching Question Time. The UK is beyond doomed.

I'm sorry, but if people do not have the wherewithal or intelligence to question the utter, UTTER drivel they are being fed by the likes of James Cleverly, then nothing more can be done. It matters not what anyone with any integrity says anymore. The only response audience members have is:

Get on with it
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done
17.4 million people
We already voted
Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done Get Brexit done

I continue to be amazed and frightened at how low people's threshold of attention is. (That's me trying to be nice). The last 3.5 years have been a true education on the power of propaganda and the media.

I despair.

If they elect Johnson, they will go through something akin to the Irish 2008-13 experience, but probably with far more bitterness and recriminations.

It could well cause major change though. Their political system and media won't be able to survive such a fiasco unscathed. They will be forced to admit that many bad things carried out by bad people have been happening since 2016.

sid waddell

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Agreed. What matters most now is to get Brexit done. Everything else is just wrapping.

There's a reason right-wing politics, especially in the UK and US, has continually demonised education for decades.

It helps to facilitate massive power grabs by the rich.

Sir Oxman

prawnsambo wrote: »

Wasn't much use imo.The vital part of the interview is the interviewee's responses. Or lack thereof. "I would have asked him..." really doesn't cut it tbh.

That clip has been viewed 2.5 million times on Twitter alone.
In 3 hours.


It had a constant thread of Johnson's untrustworthiness and that will find ears quite comfortably.


It will do damage to Johnson and the Tories of that there is no doubt, but unknown how much at the polls.

Mr.Nice Guy

I listened to the Irish Times' most recent podcast where they went over to England to get a sense of what voters were thinking, and they came away from it with the impression that voters want to get Brexit over with. They didn't detect a strong appetite for another referendum. The journalists all said at the end of it they thought the UK at this stage needed to go through with Brexit as a first step towards catharsis.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I rather think you might be close to the mark there. I still hold there's a reasonable chance the tories might fall just short of a majority but i wouldnt be betting heavily on it.

if Boris is elected with a majority, then you must ask WHY?

why did those traditional working class voters vote for the very party that ridiculed them, looked down on them, that destroyed them?

at this point i think we need to be moving over to the Psychology forum.

Professor Moriarty

sid waddell wrote: »

There's a reason right-wing politics, especially in the UK and US, has continually demonised education for decades.

It helps to facilitate massive power grabs by the rich.

Absolutely. Worst thing that happened for the elite was the advent of free secondary education. Been fighting a rearguard action ever since.

Strazdas

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I listened to the Irish Times' most recent podcast where they went over to England to get a sense of what voters were thinking, and they came away from it with the impression that voters want to get Brexit over with. They didn't detect a strong appetite for another referendum. The journalists all said at the end of it they thought the UK at this stage needed to go through with Brexit as a first step towards catharsis.

I can well see the case for this. The many millions of 'Get Brexit done' voters might need to see the whole edifice crash down around them before they even come to terms with the fact that Brexit has been sold to them by liars, spivs and charlatans in politics and the media.