General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

if Boris is elected with a majority, then you must ask WHY?

why did those traditional working class voters vote for the very party that ridiculed them, looked down on them, that destroyed them?

at this point i think we need to be moving over to the Psychology forum.

Yeah, i think the analysts looking back on this time, 5 or 10 years on, will be probing that question. And like you say, they will find parallels with trump and the rust belt to help them. Neither johnson nor BP have anything genuine to offer these voters, but they seduce them anyway with this delusion they're helping them put one over the elite establishment even though they're fully paid up members of that elite themselves. A con job, pure and simple.

Letwin_Larry

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

if Boris is elected with a majority, then you must ask WHY?

why did those traditional working class voters vote for the very party that ridiculed them, looked down on them, that destroyed them?

at this point i think we need to be moving over to the Psychology forum.

Who was it that gave the new members of the Eu free movement in to the U.K. when none of the other major economies did?

Why did they do it?

Understand the answer to that and you’ll understand why so many working class people feel bitter towards labour.

Letwin_Larry

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Absolutely. Worst thing that happened for the elite was the advent of free secondary education. Been fighting a rearguard action ever since.

and the real irony is those now uneducated (ex) working classes hate it when the Lab London-centric "intelligentsia" try to tell them what's good for them.

much better to have an old Etonian spoofer tell them they're grand, and they could soon be Lotto millionaires!

Mr.Nice Guy

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

if Boris is elected with a majority, then you must ask WHY?

why did those traditional working class voters vote for the very party that ridiculed them, looked down on them, that destroyed them?

at this point i think we need to be moving over to the Psychology forum.

I really think it's the Corbyn effect. Going back to that Irish Times podcast I mentioned, they said a lot of people they spoke to liked the Labour manifesto but they just didn't trust Corbyn.

The journalists concluded that faced with a choice between a chancer and someone nebulous, the electorate will go with the chancer.

Another interesting bit mentioned was in regards Birmingham with one of the journalists saying the Tories are putting a lot of emphasis in that city on Corbyn's alleged links with the PIRA.

Letwin_Larry

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I really think it's the Corbyn effect. Going back to that Irish Times podcast I mentioned, they said a lot of people they spoke to liked the Labour manifesto but they just didn't trust Corbyn.

The journalists concluded that faced with a choice between a chancer and someone nebulous, the electorate will go with the chancer.

Another interesting bit mentioned was in regards Birmingham with one of the journalists saying the Tories are putting a lot of emphasis in that city on Corbyn's alleged links with the PIRA.

i'm going to level with you here.

actually i think Corbyn is a decent guy, and i agree with a lot of his policies.
the problem is. there's just too much baggage, too much sh1 you can lob at him.

it's just too easy to frighten the horses when you mention Corbyn. just mention the IRA, HAMAS, ISIS, Anti-Semiticism, Nationalisation, Russia, Marx.

we could (and have) debated these issues for weeks, but all some voters hears is "feckin hell! he'll turn us over to the Russians!".

it's akin to smalltown gossip.

Strazdas

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i'm going to level with you here.

actually i think Corbyn is a decent guy, and i agree with a lot of his policies.
the problem is. there's just too much baggage, too much sh1 you can lob at him.

it's just too easy to frighten the horses when you mention Corbyn. just mention the IRA, HAMAS, ISIS, Anti-Semiticism, Nationalisation, Russia, Marx.

we could (and have) debated these issues for weeks, but all some voters hears is "feckin hell! he'll turn us over to the Russians!".

it's akin to smalltown gossip.

Also, the alt right media is pushing this to the max : Corbyn = mad, bad, very dangerous........Johnson = eccentric, but a harmless and lovable buffoon.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

Also, the alt right media is pushing this to the max : Corbyn = mad, bad, very dangerous........Johnson = eccentric, but a harmless and lovable buffoon.

As if by magic, here is The Telegraph's main headline:

Jeremy Corbyn running 'institutionally anti-Semitic' Labour Party says damning dossier

sid waddell

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I listened to the Irish Times' most recent podcast where they went over to England to get a sense of what voters were thinking, and they came away from it with the impression that voters want to get Brexit over with. They didn't detect a strong appetite for another referendum. The journalists all said at the end of it they thought the UK at this stage needed to go through with Brexit as a first step towards catharsis.

It's the manufacturing of inevitability and therefore consent, in order to smooth the path for utter folly.

In the run up to the Iraq War, there were endless arguments and massive protest, and yet the vast majority of the UK population probably didn't care one way or the other. In my recollection, the British public were of the view "it's going to happen anyway, probably best get on with it and get it done", even though it was pretty clear that this was a war manufactured on a false pretext and could produce little if any good, and a hell of a lot of bad.

Something similar was the case in the run up to World War I.

Brexit will not produce catharsis. It will divide Britain for decades and likely precipitate a lurch to the far right. It has the potential to destroy the UK and bring about civil war in Ireland. It is a cliff that Britain is walking over, apparently willingly.

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

Also, the alt right media is pushing this to the max : Corbyn = mad, bad, very dangerous........Johnson = eccentric, but a harmless and lovable buffoon.

i don't think Boris is evil incarnate, probably on ok guy but a victim of a very narrow privileged upbringing.
there's no question Corbyn has been badly maligned. but what did Lab people honestly expect? Queensbury Rules in the cage?

sid waddell

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I really think it's the Corbyn effect. Going back to that Irish Times podcast I mentioned, they said a lot of people they spoke to liked the Labour manifesto but they just didn't trust Corbyn.

The journalists concluded that faced with a choice between a chancer and someone nebulous, the electorate will go with the chancer.

Another interesting bit mentioned was in regards Birmingham with one of the journalists saying the Tories are putting a lot of emphasis in that city on Corbyn's alleged links with the PIRA.

Any other Labour leader would have faced a massive propaganda and vilification campaign. Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown certainly did and if and when there's a new Labour leader in the near future, they will face a serious onslaught too.

Even the Liberal Democrats and especially Jo Swinson have suffered quite badly in the face of propaganda and vilification in this campaign.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i don't think Boris is evil incarnate, probably on ok guy but a victim of a very narrow privileged upbringing.
there's no question Corbyn has been badly maligned. but what did Lab people honestly expect? Queensbury Rules in the cage?

The thing is theres actually still a big groundswell of support out there for corbyn i believe, but it only gets a very passing mention in msm whereas the negative gets spotlight shone on it.

Case in point: group of celebrities write letter to papers excoriating corbyn for antisemitism and it drives large media agenda for a day.

Or rabbi condemns corbyn and same thing.

But: another group of celebrities write letter in support of corbyn but it gains no traction. In fact, i heard one discussion on that letter yesterday in which one of the signatories himself was being dissed for antisemitism. So it goes.

And when likewise, a rabbi comes out in support of corbyn, noone much cares.

It just seems overwhelmingingly one sided and unfair to me but then again, as you rightly say, what should any of us have expected?

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The thing is theres actually still a big groundswell of support out there for corbyn i believe, but it only gets a very passing mention in msm whereas the negative gets spotlight shone on it.

Case in point: group of celebrities write letter to papers excoriating corbyn for antisemitism and it drives large media agenda for a day.

Or rabbi condemns corbyn and same thing.

But: another group of celebrities write letter in support of corbyn but it gains no traction. In fact, i heard one discussion on that letter yesterday in which one of the signatories himself was being dissed for antisemitism. So it goes.

And when likewise, a rabbi comes out in support of corbyn, noone much cares.

It just seems overwhelmingingly one sided and unfair to me but then again, as you rightly say, what should any of us have expected?

Big Business owns and runs the media. The media is run to facilitate Big Business. Corbyn would threaten all that, so it's logical they would do everything to thwart him.
Voters dont read anymore. They just absorb headlines.
Control headlines and you ...

and on that cheery note i bid you all Good Night!

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

Big Business owns and runs the media. The media is run to facilitate Big Business. Corbyn would threaten all that, so it's logical they would do everything to thwart him.
Voters dont read anymore. They just absorb headlines.
Control headlines and you ...

Well right wing gutter press is a dead loss for starters...but i would have expected more restraint, if not outright support, from likes of guardian/observer which has certainly been no friend to corbyn past few years. Not sure if all that damaging, but a friend there would have helped somewhat.

I blame corbyn for antisemitism problem though, that is damaging not because british people have so much empathy for the jews but because it just gives another easy reason to dislike him, on top of the 50 other reasons the right wing press trots out. Why he didnt or couldnt get hold of that sooner is on him, though some of the people using the issue just to get him are shameful imo.

quokula

sid waddell wrote: »

Any other Labour leader would have faced a massive propaganda and vilification campaign. Ed Miliband and Gordon Brown certainly did and if and when there's a new Labour leader in the near future, they will face a serious onslaught too.

Even the Liberal Democrats and especially Jo Swinson have suffered quite badly in the face of propaganda and vilification in this campaign.

Very much this. It’s interesting the parallels with America - the Republicans and their media cheerleaders ran a continuous onslaught of attacks and character assassination of Hilary Clinton. Democrats went away wondering if she was the wrong candidate and if only they’d run someone more left wing and less centrist.

In the UK the Conservatives and their media cheerleaders have run a continuous onslaught of attacks and character assassinations against Corbyn and a lot of progressives are navel gazing and wondering if Corbyn is the problem and if only they’d run someone more centrist and less left wing.

I’m pretty sure the problem is the constant, perpetual, blatantly dishonest character assassinations that are being run by the right wing media, often accompanied by even more egregious targeted online ad campaigns.

Labour’s antisemitism is basically just Hillary’s emails at this point, an empty accusatory slogan with little backing it up. There’s even a conveniently timed announcement of an investigation just before the election, which will undoubtedly come to nothing once the damage has already been done.

beggars_bush

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i don't think Boris is evil incarnate, probably on ok guy but a victim of a very narrow privileged upbringing.
there's no question Corbyn has been badly maligned. but what did Lab people honestly expect? Queensbury Rules in the cage?

Sorry, at least Corbyn has principles. They will be the end of him.

What does Johnson stand for? Lying. Cheating. Racism. Elitism

beggars_bush

quokula wrote: »

Very much this. It’s interesting the parallels with America - the Republicans and their media cheerleaders ran a continuous onslaught of attacks and character assassination of Hilary Clinton. Democrats went away wondering if she was the wrong candidate and if only they’d run someone more left wing and less centrist.

In the UK the Conservatives and their media cheerleaders have run a continuous onslaught of attacks and character assassinations against Corbyn and a lot of progressives are navel gazing and wondering if Corbyn is the problem and if only they’d run someone more centrist and less left wing.

I’m pretty sure the problem is the constant, perpetual, blatantly dishonest character assassinations that are being run by the right wing media, often accompanied by even more egregious targeted online ad campaigns.

Labour’s antisemitism is basically just Hillary’s emails at this point, an empty accusatory slogan with little backing it up. There’s even a conveniently timed announcement of an investigation just before the election, which will undoubtedly come to nothing once the damage has already been done.

Exactly.
And where is the Russian interference investigation report?

Letwin_Larry

beggars_bush wrote: »

Sorry, at least Corbyn has principles. They will be the end of him.

What does Johnson stand for? Lying. Cheating. Racism. Elitism

i agree. Corbyn is a very straight kinda guy imo. somebody i would trust with some very personal/important information. Boris is the sort of guy i wouldn't mind going for a few drinks with. i reckon he would be a bit of craic, and very entertaining. he's a spoofer.

would i buy a used car off Boris? would i trust him with my wife, my children, my house? not on yer nelly.

Leroy42

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i agree. Corbyn is a very straight kinda guy imo. somebody i would trust with some very personal/important information. Boris is the sort of guy i wouldn't mind going for a few drinks with. i reckon he would be a bit of craic, and very entertaining. he's a spoofer.

would i buy a used car off Boris? would i trust him with my wife, my children, my house? not on yer nelly.

And yet it appears that a large portion of the country, and more importantly a large enough to give him a majority, are willing to not only trust him with their futures but do so on the basis of if promising nothing. The line seems to be that since he will lie anyway, any promise is worthless!

But rather than simply reject him on that basis, they seem to be willing to give him the keys on the basis that at least if he promised nothing then they can claim they were never actually lied to.

It is a truly weird situation. The only way to save it now, is that Labour push the narrative that a vote for them is not a vote for Corbyn as PM, since the polls would indicate that is very unlikely, but rather a vote against given a clearly deceitful, and based on his lies about having plans for social care, a man that clearly has no real plans for the country.

Given the division in the country, given the lack of credible political options, then only real option is to vote for coalition.

Letwin_Larry

Leroy42 wrote: »

And yet it appears that a large portion of the country, and more importantly a large enough to give him a majority, are willing to not only trust him with their futures but do so on the basis of if promising nothing. The line seems to be that since he will lie anyway, any promise is worthless!

But rather than simply reject him on that basis, they seem to be willing to give him the keys on the basis that at least if he promised nothing then they can claim they were never actually lied to.

It is a truly weird situation. The only way to save it now, is that Labour push the narrative that a vote for them is not a vote for Corbyn as PM, since the polls would indicate that is very unlikely, but rather a vote against given a clearly deceitful, and based on his lies about having plans for social care, a man that clearly has no real plans for the country.

Given the division in the country, given the lack of credible political options, then only real option is to vote for coalition.

so should Lab change their GE slogan to,

"We will deliver paralysis!" or "Can we start again?",
or maybe "We're not sure. Are you?"

Joe_ Public

Could they have done more to get across the message that a vote for tories is a vote for no deal brexit? I'm not even sure enough voters would respond but it could have been hammered over more and more. Just they havent landed the killer blow yet and doesnt seem to exist a tipping point where johnson self immolates. NHS was obvious and well executed plan of attack but maybe not enough on its own.

Joe_ Public

Well, corbyn trying new tack today with document claiming to prove there will effectively be a hard border between NI and GB. Looks a pretty good line of attack at first glance, rare sighting of starmer at the news conference too.

sid waddell

beggars_bush wrote: »

Sorry, at least Corbyn has principles. They will be the end of him.

What does Johnson stand for? Lying. Cheating. Racism. Elitism

Yeah.

But look at Johnson, sorry, BORIS!!!!!, he's so confident and strong!!!!!!!!(even though he's actually now a bumbling mess who has gone into hiding). That very going into hiding is in fact a demonstration of strength and confidence!!!!!! The lies are a demonstration of strength and confidence!!!!!!!

Corbyn is weak!!!!!! He wants to actually discuss things and thinks there are shades of grey in the world!!!!!! That's weakness!!!!!!!! And he's a RACIST!!!!!!!!(even though he's been a lifelong anti-racist).

I'm trying to "think" like a Sun reader here.

bren2001

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well, corbyn trying new tack today with document claiming to prove there will effectively be a hard border between NI and GB. Looks a pretty good line of attack at first glance, rare sighting of starmer at the news conference too.

I don't know if it is a good line to trot out. Do middle england really care if NI and GB have a border? I don't think they do. Corbyn needs to show that a vote for the Tories and Brexit will hurt your pocket if you're working class. He's utterly failed to achieve that.

Letwin_Larry

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Could they have done more to get across the message that a vote for tories is a vote for no deal brexit? I'm not even sure enough voters would respond but it could have been hammered over more and more. Just they havent landed the killer blow yet and doesnt seem to exist a tipping point where johnson self immolates. NHS was obvious and well executed plan of attack but maybe not enough on its own.

i have to admit i do not find it shocking that Boris is not prepared to face Andrew Neil. i can fully understand the tactical thinking behind it. there is a real danger he would be totally exposed and they know & fear that in Tory HQ.
what i find shocking is that large parts of the electorate are not deeply concerned.

i mean would you buy a house from an estate agent that was unwilling to answer a few questions regarding the Sq footage?
would you employ a new staff member that refused to explain where he/she last worked or what duties they performed?
would you buy a used car from a guy who couldn't provide you with a service record?

sid waddell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well, corbyn trying new tack today with document claiming to prove there will effectively be a hard border between NI and GB. Looks a pretty good line of attack at first glance, rare sighting of starmer at the news conference too.

The document that says such is called the Withdrawal Agreement.

I'd be a lot more worried that very Withdrawal Agreement means there will be a hard border in Ireland at the start of 2021.

It seems obvious to me that that's where it's all headed.

ancapailldorcha

bren2001 wrote: »

I don't know if it is a good line to trot out. Do middle england really care if NI and GB have a border? I don't think they do. Corbyn needs to show that a vote for the Tories and Brexit will hurt your pocket if you're working class. He's utterly failed to achieve that.

In fairness, the only way for this to be demonstrated is to have it actually happen by which point it will be too late. It's been known for ages but casually dismissed as fake news because some Bullingdon Boy read Greek poetry at Oxford and therefore clearly knows better than experts because he triggers lefties, liberals and Social Democrats.

Regarding the border, no. They don't care one whit.

Joe_ Public

sid waddell wrote: »

The document that says such is called the Withdrawal Agreement.

I'd be a lot more worried that very Withdrawal Agreement means there will be a hard border in Ireland at the start of 2021.

It seems obvious to me that that's where it's all headed.

Havent seen a copy but its a treasury document they have got a hold of, with tariffs and details of checks clearly laid out in bold, unambiguous print. Talking to voters about WA is a waste of time.

Joe_ Public

Probably a lot of contenders but am confident we have reached a low point of the campaign, possibly year. From the party some of its defenders still see as a moderate, centrist right bunch. Heard this candidate give a statement to bbc saying she was taken out of context, apologising if caused offence etc. Hastings is close enough, labour within reach there.

https://twitter.com/MayaAnneEvans/status/1202747625382064129?s=20

Joe_ Public

bren2001 wrote: »

I don't know if it is a good line to trot out. Do middle england really care if NI and GB have a border? I don't think they do. Corbyn needs to show that a vote for the Tories and Brexit will hurt your pocket if you're working class. He's utterly failed to achieve that.

I dont know, but it cant do any harm anyway. A lot of working class were totally hypnotised by brexit in 2016 and dont want to hear any other message. Seems to me they'd be ok to take a financial hit if it meant throwing off the dread shackles of the eu. I doubt many are deluded into thinking brexit offers a route to unprecedented pots of gold.

Letwin_Larry

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, the only way for this to be demonstrated is to have it actually happen by which point it will be too late. It's been known for ages but casually dismissed as fake news because some Bullingdon Boy read Greek poetry at Oxford and therefore clearly knows better than experts because he triggers lefties, liberals and Social Democrats.

Regarding the border, no. They don't care one whit.

i believe if Boris is returned with a strong enough majority, he is more than capable of going back to the EU, ripping up the WA, dumping it and saying to them, "ok let's start again!"

and his supporters will love it.