General Election December, 2019 (U.K.)

sid waddell

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Gavin Williamson.....the man who was welcomed back into the cabinet mere weeks after being fired for leaking details of a national council security meeting.

From the party that likes to talk tough on security...

The same party that let out Usman Khan and serial rapist Joseph McCann.

"Security", yeah.

McGiver

schmittel wrote:

Do you think Putin et al would have been able to use Facebook to swing the election Trump's away if he'd standing against Obama?

100%. It would have costed a bit more perhaps.

You're underestimating the multiplicative effect of the targeted social media campaign.
Incredibly good ROI. Order of magnitude more efficient than wasting money on printing, distributing flyers or paying people to run around on the ground.

McGiver

Aegir wrote:

People who claim others have a lack of education, usually do so because others don’t agree with their point of view.

There are multitude of figures and statistics that support my notion. You can't present a coherent argument using actual data to disprove it - I'll be more than happy to listen and consider it.

liamtech

Apparently there is a UTV debate on tonight

Does anyone have a link to a stream for this debate

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

There are multitude of figures and statistics that support my notion. You can't present a coherent argument using actual data to disprove it - I'll be more than happy to listen and consider it.

Ok then, show us the data that the British suffer from a lack of education.

Sam Russell

Aegir wrote: »

Ok then, show us the data that the British suffer from a lack of education.

Just watch any UK quiz programme that has normal everyday folks on and see how much they know in subjects other than pop or TV questions. They are particularly ignorant on history, and literature.

[I'm talking of the ones that ask easy questions, not University Challenge or Only Connect - the Chase is a good one where most of the contestants guess the answers with a one in three chance of being correct].

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just watch any UK quiz programme that has normal everyday folks on and see how much they know in subjects other than pop or TV questions. They are particularly ignorant on history, and literature.

[I'm talking of the ones that ask easy questions, not University Challenge or Only Connect - the Chase is a good one where most of the contestants guess the answers with a one in three chance of being correct].

Yes, TV quiz shows are a brilliant way to determine the educational level of a country if 60 million people.

Jesus Christ.

Sam Russell

Aegir wrote: »

Yes, TV quiz shows are a brilliant way to determine the educational level of a country if 60 million people.

Jesus Christ.

Suggest a better way.

If the majority of contestants lack basic knowledge of subjects like history or literature, then it is reasonable to assume they are representative of the population at large. Now if the contestants are chosen for their stupidity, then it is a poor way, but I would imagine the really stupid ones are selected out by the producers.

McGiver

Aegir wrote: »

Ok then, show us the data that the British suffer from a lack of education.

Sure, one of dozens of examples.



https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/11/27/brits-know-less-about-the-eu-than-anyone-else/

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Suggest a better way.

If the majority of contestants lack basic knowledge of subjects like history or literature, then it is reasonable to assume they are representative of the population at large. Now if the contestants are chosen for their stupidity, then it is a poor way, but I would imagine the really stupid ones are selected out by the producers.

Well I would expect someone to at least post the official stats, the PISA rankings published by the OECD, where the uk ranks above Ireland for maths and science.

But who needs facts when you’ve got bigotry.

McGiver

This one is so typical to a population with a large % of brainwashed element as is the case in the UK. The same applies to gullibility of the very same section (i'd estimate that to about 40-50% of the population) to swallow nonsensical propaganda during GE campaigns.

Child Benefit: we massively overestimate the proportion of Child Benefit awards given to families in other European countries. The actual proportion of UK Child Benefit awards going on children living abroad in Europe is 0.3%, but 14% of us think that 30% of UK Child Benefit goes to children abroad and 23% of us think 13% does. This means that nearly 4 in 10 of us think the number of children in EU countries receiving Child Benefit from the UK is 40 to 100 times the actual level.

That's basically two orders of magnitude off (100 times off), all that down to constant propaganda but importantly due to gaps in education - educated person is sceptical, verifies information and doesn't swallow every piece of horsesh*t in the papers or from random sources online.

sid waddell

Aegir wrote: »

Well I would expect someone to at least post the official stats, the PISA rankings published by the OECD, where the uk ranks above Ireland for maths and science.

But who needs facts when you’ve got bigotry.

I didn't see any bigotry in the post you responded to.

You were branding others here as "bordering on fascist" earlier.

You seem to be one of these people who are all too happy to throw around incendiary rhetoric at others while getting deeply offended by the least thing yourself.

McGiver

Aegir wrote: »

Well I would expect someone to at least post the official stats, the PISA rankings published by the OECD, where the uk ranks above Ireland for maths and science.

But who needs facts when you’ve got bigotry.

PISA ratings tells you what potential current 15 year olds may have in future. Not where the current say 18-74 population stands. But that's not the point.

Interesting polling from YouGov showing that Labour voters will turn on Corbyn if he fails to deliver at the forthcoming election:

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1203434200063528961

Strazdas

McGiver wrote: »

One more. Hope that suffices.

There was a fascinating comment on the Telegraph's website from a Conservative canvasser recently. He described himself as a committed Brexiteer, says he had spoken to perhaps 4000 people in the previous four weeks but that he was shocked and deeply depressed by the responses he got. 90% of people couldn't even name their local MP and didn't know whether it was a male or female. On Brexit, he found people completely uninformed and not understanding any of the issues.

He said he reluctantly has to admit the referendum on such a huge constitutional issue should never been held, not with such an uninformed and uneducated electorate.

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

I didn't see any bigotry in the post you responded to.

You were branding others here as "bordering on fascist" earlier.

You seem to be one of these people who are all too happy to throw around incendiary rhetoric at others while getting deeply offended by the least thing yourself.

you don't see any bigotry in either of these posts?

McGiver wrote: »

That's why civilised countries have processes to achieve some sort of a compromise in the political domain. The UK doesn't have such process.

McGiver wrote: »

They confuse democracy with ochlocracy in the UK. Lack of education and culture of majoritarianism and tribalism are the causes of this.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

Here is one piece of evidence how ignorant UK population were about the EU (and probably still are). You respond with a GIF. Do you have any actual argument proving contrary to the research I linked?

you said there were loads of stats about how the British suffer from a lack of education. When asked for evidence, you relied on a quiz about the european union, but claimed that PISA is not a good indication of education standards.

I didn't make the claim about a lack of education, you did. The onus is on you to either support this claim with the dozens of stats you claim to have, or declare it as your own opinion.

sid waddell

Aegir wrote: »

you don't see any bigotry in either of these posts?

No, I just see somebody in yourself who is trying to shut down reasonable talking points by claiming fake offence, while simultaneously seeing no problem in calling others "bordering on fascist".

That's ludicrous hypocrisy and it's sadly an all too common modus operandi of Brexiteers and Tories, so it's very easy to see through.

Self styled "free speech warriors" tend to be very anti-free speech when you scratch the surface.

Charles Babbage

The issue is not only the ignorance of the British population, at some level whether there are 27 or 28 members of the EU doesn't make much difference. It is the disinterest and irresponsible laziness of that electorate, who continue to accept lies which could be verified in 20 seconds in Google on any smartphone.

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The issue is not only the ignorance of the British population, at some level whether there are 27 or 28 members of the EU doesn't make much difference. It is the disinterest and irresponsible laziness of that electorate, who continue to accept lies which could be verified in 20 seconds in Google on any smartphone.

As a Brexit supporter, I cannot understand why Remainers refuse to accept that:

• We do not want to be part of an evolving European federalisation, with or without a veto.
• We want sovereignty hitherto pooled to the EU, to be returned back to the UK.
• We want direct control over our monies.
• We want direct control over our fisheries.
• We want direct control over European migration.
• We want direct control over any potential future trade agreements.

You can argue about economic merits here and there until the cows come home, but these are essentially non-economic arguments. Second, no "Google search" can undermine these points. You either believe in this political arrangement, or you believe in the European Union political model.

It's a political choice, not something that evidence can prove to be "wrong".

Of course, you are free to argue about the merits/demerits of each, as they are legitimate debates to be had.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

As a Brexit supporter, I cannot understand why Remainers refuse to accept that:

[*]We do not want to be part of an evolving European federalisation, with or without a veto.
[*]We want sovereignty hitherto pooled to the EU, to be returned back to the UK.
[*]We want direct control over our monies.
[*]We want direct control over our fisheries.
[*]We want direct control over European migration.
[*]We want direct control over any potential future trade agreements.

You can argue about economic merits here and there until the cows come home, but these are essentially non-economic arguments. Second, no "Google search" can undermine these points. You either believe in this political arrangement, or you believe in the European Union political model.

It's a political choice, not something that evidence can prove to be "wrong".

Of course, you are free to argue about the merits/demerits of each, as they are legitimate debates to be had.

You can have all those things no problem, but it means the UK becoming a pretty isolationist and protectionist state.

Most developed countries don't trade and interact with their nearest neighbours in such a stand offish and "keep your distance" manner.

ArmaniJeanss

BMG had it as a 6-point gap midweek, and truth be told, was the one many of us were clinging to.

Today.

Con 41(+2).
Lab 32(-1).

Letwin_Larry

McGiver wrote: »

PISA ratings tells you what potential current 15 year olds may have in future. Not where the current say 18-74 population stands. But that's not the point.

it's so easy to throw insults at people, and actually shows just how desperate Lab supporters have become.
so their last throw of the dice is now,

"agree with us and our 1970s Marxist policies, or you are uneducated and ignorant"

and you have the temerity to accuse the Tories of treating the ordinary voter with contempt and you wonder why Lab is languishing in the polls?

liamtech

Sorry to be a pain, but does anyone have a UTV stream for tonights party leaders debate?

Its on at 8 o clock and im stranded in the house of someone with no satellite dish

thanks in advance

gooch2k9

liamtech wrote: »

Sorry to be a pain, but does anyone have a UTV stream for tonights party leaders debate?

Its on at 8 o clock and im stranded in the house of someone with no satellite dish

thanks in advance

I'm looking but can't find anything. Everything seems to link through to ITV who make no mention of UTV(imagine leaving NI out eh?!). Stuck in a house with no TV as I'm about to move!

liamtech

gooch2k9 wrote: »

I'm looking but can't find anything. Everything seems to link through to ITV who make no mention of UTV(imagine leaving NI out eh?!). Stuck in a house with no TV as I'm about to move!

there was a stream availble for the very first ITV debate so i guess im just banking that maybe someone has options for tonights - been following this since day one so id hate to miss it

Happy to accept a DM - dont wanna clog up this thread -

thanks ever so much in advance

sid waddell

sid waddell wrote: »

No, I just see somebody in yourself who is trying to shut down reasonable talking points by claiming fake offence, while simultaneously seeing no problem in calling others "bordering on fascist".

That's ludicrous hypocrisy and it's sadly an all too common modus operandi of Brexiteers and Tories, so it's very easy to see through.

Self styled "free speech warriors" tend to be very anti-free speech when you scratch the surface.

nice ad hominem.

when someone makes a point that I disagree with, I challenge it and put my points together, such as the one about PISA. When people can't get their points across and claim it is because others are uneducated, it is bordering on fascism, or fanaticism. that king of attitude is what gives people the confirmation that the people are too stupid to govern themselves and needs someone like them, who is intellectually suprior, to do it for them.

Similarly, like when you are challenged on a point and struggle for a come back, resort to ad hominem and accusations.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

As a Brexit supporter, I cannot understand why Remainers refuse to accept that:

• We do not want to be part of an evolving European federalisation, with or without a veto.
• We want sovereignty hitherto pooled to the EU, to be returned back to the UK.
• We want direct control over our monies.
• We want direct control over our fisheries.
• We want direct control over European migration.
• We want direct control over any potential future trade agreements.

You can argue about economic merits here and there until the cows come home, but these are essentially non-economic arguments. Second, no "Google search" can undermine these points. You either believe in this political arrangement, or you believe in the European Union political model.

It's a political choice, not something that evidence can prove to be "wrong".

Of course, you are free to argue about the merits/demerits of each, as they are legitimate debates to be had.

Because all of this is based on fiction. Simple. I don't need any google search to undermine this because it is all just empty, meaningless soundbyes.

quokula

Channel 4 debate tonight was frustrating, only caught the last couple of questions and maybe it was different earlier, but with the Tories not bothering to turn up again, you basically got five parties widely agreeing with each other on each policy and arguing over minor details. And between them they’ll get far more than 50% of the vote. But because of FPTP, the likelihood is that the Tories will get in and enact the exact opposite of those policies.

Rjd2

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting polling from YouGov showing that Labour voters will turn on Corbyn if he fails to deliver at the forthcoming election:

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1203434200063528961

I assume he would step down if we get a tory majority. Obviously losing 2 elections would haunt him, but he and his supporters will take some heart from the fact that his style of politics is entrenched in the party.

I see the bookies have Starmer fav,,,he's very impressive but its very tricky to know how popular he is with the base of the party. I could see the identity politics obsessed on the left crucifying him unfortunately.

Long Bailey second fav and probably should be fav tbh. Young, female and would definitely be someone the left of the party could get behind.

Can't see anyone else challenging, Piddock not well known enough, Cooper, Thornberry and Philips will be cheered by the media but have absolutely zero chance of winning a members vote.

Could also speculate about who would replace Boris if he doesn't get it done on Thursday.,,can't imagine wealthy donars will be in a forgiving mood if we get some sort of lefty alliance at the end of this.