Noel Grealish

hawkelady

Odhinn wrote: »

They're guesses not actual totals, as was the case when this first came up. They say so themselves.

Well their guesses are poles apart. Can someone not clarify how the two organisations came to their conclusions ...

Faugheen

Roversfan1 wrote: »

No, after 34 pages or so of discussion the final outcome was that Grealish is a racist and that was the reason for all of this.

Added to that the case is now closed and no one is ever allowed question anything again if it potentially offends a minority group in Ireland

Funnily enough you’ve had loads of facts and figures thrown at you, and questions asked, that you completely ignored.

Corholio

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This is what's known as moving the goalposts..

He absolutely has been blasted for raising this at all, with accusations of racism or discrimination being his motivation for doing so.

Absolutely no one would have an issue if an investigation found that the numbers were wrong or all is legit and accounted for.

But that's not what sparked the outcry from some.

Goalposts have moved on the other side too. First it was how can all this money be going to Nigeria? Then after his figures were not shown to be in anyway worthwhile, it was 'well he should be allowed ask the question?'

He literally said he can 'understand' money sent to EU countries and then singled out a non EU country with wildly incorrect figures. I personally don't think he is racist but he knows very well what he is doing. To say there is no link to race is way off in fairness, especially with his previous Oughterard comments, which he then ran away from.

weldoninhio

mariaalice wrote: »

Still does not make any sense why does it matter where people are sending their money its their money.

Is all of the money transferred out of Ireland legally accrued? Should we not be looking out for money laundering? Terrorist funding? Etc??

weldoninhio

hawkelady wrote: »

Has it been clarified yet if the cso or world bank figures are correct ?

Both are guesses it seems.

Roversfan1

Faugheen wrote: »

Funnily enough you’ve had loads of facts and figures thrown at you, and questions asked, that you completely ignored.

News to me.

You should be really happy Noel Grealish has come out with this stuff by the way.....If he is proven wrong you'll be able to use data and stats for a change to win the debate but many don't want things to get that far....which I understand of course.

Odhinn

hawkelady wrote: »

Well their guesses are poles apart. Can someone not clarify how the two organisations came to their conclusions ...

This post outlines the world banks method, and the world banks caveats about its methodology, with a link back to the report at the time.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84698399&postcount=153

weldoninhio

Corholio wrote: »

Goalposts have moved on the other side too. First it was how can all this money be going to Nigeria? Then after his figures were not shown to be in anyway worthwhile, it was 'well he should be allowed ask the question?'

He literally said he can 'understand' money sent to EU countries and then singled out a non EU country with wildly incorrect figures. I personally don't think he is racist but he knows very well what he is doing. To say there is no link to race is way off in fairness, especially with his previous Oughterard comments, which he then ran away from.

So you think he contacted the World Bank, made them put Nigeria top of the list of remittances from Ireland so that he could pull it up in the Dail??

suicide_circus

cant this be two things at once?

a cynical election ploy AND an interesting financial anomaly?

I Am The Law

There are only 2 facts,

No one knows how many immigrants are in Ireland. (illegal or legal)

No one knows how much cash is wired out of the country without having paid VAT, PAYE, USC, PRSI, Income tax, corporation tax to the state.

suicide_circus

I Am The Law wrote: »

There are only 2 facts,

No one knows how many immigrants are in Ireland. (illegal or legal)

No one knows how much cash is wired out of the country without having paid VAT, PAYE, USC, PRSI, Income tax, corporation tax to the state.

i would say both of those are true but are probably true in every country

osarusan

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

In October he was given the CSO figures. Yesterday he cited the world bank figure (Ireland are a member of this group) and there is huge differences in the figures. The world bank figures would equate to every Nigerian man, woman and child sending 26k back to Nigeria. A very high figure for anyone. Which is why it was questioned.

He didn't question it like that though. If he had highlighted the huge discrepancy said we need to get to the bottom of why such different figures exist, you would be right.


But he took the World Bank estimates and treated them as fact.

_Kaiser_

What I genuinely find the worst aspect here is what this indicates about the state of our society.

Elected representative raises a legitimate question in our national Parliament and if there's means to ensure nothing untoward is happening.

Rather than people being concerned about that, or supporting the idea of getting an answer to it, there seems to be a vocal section (including in our national media) far more concerned with shouting "racist" at him and anyone else who sees the validity in the point being raised, with goalposts being moved, whataboutery being used, and all the other usual tactics to try and shout down the questions and those asking it.

Are there honestly that many people more concerned about virtue signalling idiocy these days than establishing the facts (one way or the other) of the matter?

If so then we're truly lost IMO

suicide_circus

certain topics are verboten. every generation has its taboos.

Corholio

weldoninhio wrote: »

So you think he contacted the World Bank, made them put Nigeria top of the list of remittances from Ireland so that he could pull it up in the Dail??

Not at all. He could have just pulled up the answer he was given in October when he asked the question about remittances and was given a table that showed Nigeria 9th highest out of 18 individual countries.

He instead chose to use the one that showed Nigeria top with wrong and vastly, incorrectly calculated information. Funny that. I wonder why he would use that one. A real mystery that one.

All this stuff about 'He should be allowed ask the question' is perfectly correct, if thats what he actually did. Why didn't he just ask this question then? Instead he peddled wrong figures, said he didn't mind any EU figures and singled out a non-EU country? All this stuff about virtue signalling shouting down someone is bull****. If he truly wanted to 'ask the question', he would have done just that. But he didn't do that.

Roversfan1

osarusan wrote: »

But he took the World Bank estimates and treated them as fact.

He said "Taoiseach, these figures have been published by the world bank......the world bank are an internationally recognised organisation and their data comes from the IMF"

He then went on to make his point

"But Taoiseach, 3.4 billion transferred to one non EU country is astronomical. Has revenue or the dept of finance any way of tracking this money or where it is coming from"

Leo then said he assumed the numbers were "no doubt correct" and said his grandmother talked about sending cheques home from the US.

He then mentioned the money as a whole again being 1 billion annually which lumped all the countries together.....and then was called a racist.


So he took the WB figures as fact and so did the Taoiseach.

Roversfan1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Are there honestly that many people more concerned about virtue signalling idiocy these days than establishing the facts (one way or the other) of the matter?

If so then we're truly lost IMO

Unfortunately there are mate.

James Brown

Roversfan1 wrote: »

He said "Taoiseach, these figures have been published by the world bank......the world bank are an internationally recognised organisation and their data comes from the IMF"

He then went on to make his point

"But Taoiseach, 3.4 billion transferred to one non EU country is astronomical. Has revenue or the dept of finance any way of tracking this money or where it is coming from"

Leo then said he assumed the numbers were "no doubt correct" and said his grandmother talked about sending cheques home from the US.

He then mentioned the money as a whole again being 1 billion annually which lumped all the countries together.....and then was called a racist.


So he took the WB figures as fact and so did the Taoiseach.

TBF, Varadkar isn't the sharpest.
I've not called him racist and don't think we can call him such based on this. The problem is he seems okay with dipping his toe in the Peter Casey waters. The outrage and stirring will raise his profile no doubt. Job done?

Eric Cartman

suicide_circus wrote: »

certain topics are verboten. every generation has its taboos.

its only verboten because the onces shouting racist know the factual outcome and answer doesn't support their 'open borders, everyones good, theyre all doctors' theory.

enricoh

https://www.thejournal.ie/noel-grealish-money-sent-from-ireland-to-nigeria-4889805-Nov2019/

“Pay of non-national workers is used to estimate disposable income and to derive a remittance amount.

This is how the cso estimates how much is sent home to each country. Estimate what each worker has left after the bills are paid n then estimate a percentage of that, which they reckon they send home.
God bless their naivety, dunno about the world banks accuracy but the cso's is laughable!

Roversfan1

Matt Barrett wrote: »

TBF, Varadkar isn't the sharpest.
I've not called him racist

So there is one person who has not been called a racist by you?

He was caught off guard and not prepared.

There would be no reason not to assume the WB's figure's were correct without going through them thoroughly....and that is all anyone is asking for really.

Corholio

Not everyone criticising Grealish is saying he's racist or that they are 'virtue signalling', or whatever other tacky all encompassing phrase that's incredibly lazy. Anyone that doesn't see what he's been doing the last few weeks is very shortsighted imo. He doesn't care that his figures were corrected within hours or that his comments a few weeks were rightly criticised. I don't particularly like the phrase 'dog whistle politics' but it's exactly what he's doing with this.

Like the Lowry's and Healy Rae's he'll probably top his poll, and people there can do what they want but it's just a shame to see support built from misguided anger and flame fanning from a dodgy, expenses collecting TD like Grealish.

high_king

Roversfan1 wrote: »

He said "Taoiseach, these figures have been published by the world bank......the world bank are an internationally recognised organisation and their data comes from the IMF"

He then went on to make his point

"But Taoiseach, 3.4 billion transferred to one non EU country is astronomical. Has revenue or the dept of finance any way of tracking this money or where it is coming from"

Leo then said he assumed the numbers were "no doubt correct" and said his grandmother talked about sending cheques home from the US.

He then mentioned the money as a whole again being 1 billion annually which lumped all the countries together.....and then was called a racist.


So he took the WB figures as fact and so did the Taoiseach.

What are the correct figures ? Why are the World Banks figures wrong ? Bit worrying if their estimates are so far out.

noinc

enricoh wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/noel-grealish-money-sent-from-ireland-to-nigeria-4889805-Nov2019/

“Pay of non-national workers is used to estimate disposable income and to derive a remittance amount.

This is how the cso estimates how much is sent home to each country. Estimate what each worker has left after the bills are paid n then estimate a percentage of that, which they reckon they send home.
God bless their naivety, dunno about the world banks accuracy but the cso's is laughable!

An Post are paying out social welfare and they don't blink when the recipient puts some of the cash into their pocket and without moving away they ask if they can send a portion to wherever at the same counter of the same person. If you can send a portion of your dole back "home" you need to explain how. Grealish may do us a favour but the rest of them are anti Irish through and through or cowards. You can be called a racist for breathing these days and it likely to get worse.

weldoninhio

Corholio wrote: »

Not at all. He could have just pulled up the answer he was given in October when he asked the question about remittances and was given a table that showed Nigeria 9th highest out of 18 individual countries.

He instead chose to use the one that showed Nigeria top with wrong and vastly, incorrectly calculated information. Funny that. I wonder why he would use that one. A real mystery that one.

All this stuff about 'He should be allowed ask the question' is perfectly correct, if thats what he actually did. Why didn't he just ask this question then? Instead he peddled wrong figures, said he didn't mind any EU figures and singled out a non-EU country? All this stuff about virtue signalling shouting down someone is bull****. If he truly wanted to 'ask the question', he would have done just that. But he didn't do that.

How do you know they are wrong? Do you have access to something that no one else has??

high_king

The word racist is used so often against anyone who questions anything, do the people using the word know the actual meaning of it ? It's not looking like they do.

Homelander

While in general it is a perfectly legit question, you have to question why last month, he asked the same question and was given more accurate figures, but chose, a month later, to use the world bank figure despite being informed it was incorrect.

So really find it hard to believe how Noel Grealish deserves to be treated with credibility in that context. I think he clearly and deliberately used the info to get exactly a response he predicted, that he was raising issues that were being 'shut down' by the Government.

He did the same thing with the spongers comment in Oughterard, it's not that the statement or opinion was completely without merit, but he very clearly has an agenda, i.e stoke the flames that'll reelect him in the next GE.

Corholio

weldoninhio wrote: »

How do you know they are wrong? Do you have access to something that no one else has??

All figures put out there are 'estimates', including Grealish's. He got his info from data which doesn't actually count it from banking data, and as said by many with knowledge within the industry, the data is wildly inaccurate. I didn't mention CSO was correct or anything either btw, as that is estimated too, but he's the one that put out the data and claimed it as fact.

As I said previously if he had actually just asked a question of it without claiming anything, it wouldn't have exploded like it did, but from his previous actions we all know why he didn't do that of course. It's naive to think he didn't have an angle with what he said and how he said it yesterday.

Topgear on Dave

And the more outraged the Dublin media & twitterati are the better for his plan.

Homelander

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

And the more outraged the Dublin media & twitterati are the better for his plan.

Exactly. He's a shoe in next election between this and the Oughterard situation.

Again, not to say that either situation wasn't without validity in a certain context, but plain a day in this one that he manipulated the situation to further his own end.