Noel Grealish

Yurt2

I'm loathe to defend the gobdaw Grealish again, but PWC use the same 'dodgy' figure in their report on the importance of remittances to the Nigerian economy (USD 473m from Ireland to Nigeria for 2017).

So if Grealish used racist figures, so too do PWC.

That figure is larger, than the Nigerian diaspora in Canada (surely larger you would think) send to Naija.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pwc.com/ng/en/pdf/the-economic-power-of-nigerias-diaspora.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgsvKd9ublAhUCy4sBHe6vAvgQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2yKniTpiTn5tQ54_zQpLY6

Riskymove

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

No the data is there, the World Bank published it - is the World Bank dodgy now?

The world bank simply publishes what each country tells them - they are not actually carrying out statistical work in Nigeria

the issue seems to be how the Nigerian authorities are deciding on the figure for individual countries

Riskymove

Yurt! wrote: »

So if Grealish used racist figures, so too do PWC.
.

the figures are not racist

they are simply likely to be very wrong

The whole issue should really end there

lola85

Who the fook votes for Ruth Koppinger?

Yurt2

Riskymove wrote: »

the figures are not racist

they are simply likely to be very wrong

The whole issue should really end there

Well, taken at face value the World Bank figures are a head scratcher and at least one other TD in previous sittings asked more or less the same question without a firestorm.

I don't know did Grealish find the CSO figures and choose to ignore them (the CSO website is a nightmare, and I can't envision him cruising through that mess on his Dáil issue MacBook) or simply he landed upon the World Bank figures and decided to ask an awkward question.

ollkiller

lola85 wrote: »

Who the fook votes for Ruth Koppinger?

Probably her constituents. How is her record for serving her constituents. If she keeps getting re-elected then it must be ok.

Corholio

Yurt! wrote: »

Not to speak in defense of Grealish, but in that Twitter thread, the above economist conceeds the CSO data is derived from modelling and estimates of income, and as such we probably shouldn't regard his figures as 'hard data'. He calls the World Bank figures that Grealish uses as 'questiobable,' yet is happy to wheel out the CSO data which has its own problems to burnish a political point.

It's head in the sand stuff to deny that a lot of our undocumented are working in the black or grey economy and are remitting untaxed income to their home countries. It's not every immigrant, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen.

IBEC have been consistently more or less open borders advocates for many years. Recently, the put out a press release saying the 30k minimum salary for critical skills visa was 'too high'. That kind of shows you where they're at.

So the CI of IBEC put data forward and then also clarifies it as an estimate, while the figures Grealish put forward have zero clarification from him and some hold it up as fact? All data of that size is an 'estimate'. Nigeria's own data to World Bank is even more vague as an estimate. Just trying to put forward actual figures, any that are by anyone will all be estimated. A lot are just taking Grealish's figures as gospel because it shows a certain point.

I don't necessarily see the specific words by Grealish as 'racist' but we all know what he is aiming for with what he has said, especially with his recent form. People should be looking at his dodgy expenses and low vote attendance before holding him up as some sort of financial whistleblower.

World Bank figures are based on vague estimates from countries themselves.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1194278595570606085?s=19

weldoninhio

Riskymove wrote: »

the figures are not racist

they are simply likely to be very wrong

The whole issue should really end there

Ah so just accept that the World Bank are wrong, IBEC are right. Nothing to see here. Heads back in the sand. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

topper75

ollkiller wrote: »

Probably her constituents. How is her record for serving her constituents. If she keeps getting re-elected then it must be ok.

I wonder when those constituents heard her shouting at another TD to sit down for just asking a question about unusual arithmetic in the official figures were they thinking "Good on you girl"?.

Not sure how that served them really.

Yurt2

Corholio wrote: »

So the CI of IBEC put data forward and then also clarifies it as an estimate, while the figures Grealish put forward have zero clarification from him and some hold it up as fact? All data of that size is an 'estimate'. Nigeria's own data to World Bank is even more vague as an estimate. Just trying to put forward actual figures, any that are by anyone will all be estimated. A lot are just taking Grealish's figures as gospel because it shows a certain point.

World Bank figures are based on vague estimates from countries themselves.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1194278595570606085?s=19

I never said that the World Bank figures were authoritative, a cursory dig reveals they are not. But laypersons could be forgiven for taking the stats of an institution such as the World Bank as somewhat accurate.

The IBEC guy wheeled out less than authoritative CSO figure, and only doubled back on the foggy and unreliable methodology under pressure from other posters. A presumably trained economist doing that is a bit more disengenuos than thicko Grealish not doing his homework on World Bank data compilation methodologies.

Both sides are talking sh*te basically, but the economist probably has the benefit of a higher education on numeracy and statistics so should know better than try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes to further IBECs agenda.

Corholio

Corholio wrote: »

So the CI of IBEC put data forward and then also clarifies it as an estimate, while the figures Grealish put forward have zero clarification from him and some hold it up as fact? All data of that size is an 'estimate'. Nigeria's own data to World Bank is even more vague as an estimate. Just trying to put forward actual figures, any that are by anyone will all be estimated. A lot are just taking Grealish's figures as gospel because it shows a certain point.

I don't necessarily see the specific words by Grealish as 'racist' but we all know what he is aiming for with what he has said, especially with his recent form. People should be looking at his dodgy expenses and low vote attendance before holding him up as some sort of financial whistleblower.

World Bank figures are based on vague estimates from countries themselves.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1194278595570606085?s=19

Gavin Reilly said the world bank gave him this link
https://www.knomad.org/data/remittances?tid%5B146%5D=146

I have no idea what it all means but I’m sure there’s a few of you on here than can explain it in layman’s terms.

Strazdas

Corholio wrote: »

So the CI of IBEC put data forward and then also clarifies it as an estimate, while the figures Grealish put forward have zero clarification from him and some hold it up as fact? All data of that size is an 'estimate'. Nigeria's own data to World Bank is even more vague as an estimate. Just trying to put forward actual figures, any that are by anyone will all be estimated. A lot are just taking Grealish's figures as gospel because it shows a certain point.

I don't necessarily see the specific words by Grealish as 'racist' but we all know what he is aiming for with what he has said, especially with his recent form. People should be looking at his dodgy expenses and low vote attendance before holding him up as some sort of financial whistleblower.

World Bank figures are based on vague estimates from countries themselves.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1194278595570606085?s=19

The World Bank figure sounds like it has been plucked from thin air for Ireland. A smallish Nigerian population, many of whom are not very well off. €10m a week actually being sent from Ireland would be raising all sorts of red flags in the system, especially over a ten year period.

is_that_so

topper75 wrote: »

I wonder when those constituents heard her shouting at another TD to sit down for just asking a question about unusual arithmetic in the official figures were they thinking "Good on you girl"?.

Not sure how that served them really.

Is this a case of Grealish good, Coppinger bad?

alastair

blanch152 wrote: »

So there is a discrepancy between the funds that Ireland records leaving the country and going to Nigeria and the funds that the World Bank records as arriving in Nigeria from Ireland.

Why? That is the real question. Some on the radio this morning have tried to suggest it is Nigerian companies repatriating profits. I struggle to see any Nigerian company with such a presence in the Irish market that it would be repatriating that amount of money.

There are two other possibilities.

One is the money-laundering one. Nigeria is a big problem when it comes to money-laundering. Our banks will have let us down again if they are responsible for facilitating international money-laundering.

The second possibility is the Irish cash economy. Nigerians aren't the only group taking part in this. We Irish have many people involved in the cash economy. Taxes aren't paid, social welfare is claimed by people with cash income etc. The cash economy may be a lot bigger than most of us suspect.

Nobody wants Ireland to be associated with either international money-laundering or a significant cash economy. Because Noel Grealish has form (and probably hasn't considered the two possibilities I mention), it is easier to target him as a racist rather than confront the underlying causes of the discrepancy.

My own guess is that the discrepancy is a combination of both those possibilities. Our banks are wittingly or unwittingly facilitating international money-laundering and the CSO are failing to get a clear grasp of the size of the Irish cash economy. In the case of the former, it is a minority of Nigerians and others involved in money-laundering and a particular nationality shouldn't be labelled as a result. In the case of the latter, the cash economy is something that immigrants have exploited but it has always been here, just getting bigger on the back of exploitation of immigrants. Sure, there are Nigerians and other nationalities involved, but it is a homegrown problem.

You do understand that the Nigerian Government / WTO estimate isn’t based on any Irish remittance data whatsoever? It’s entirely woo.

Riskymove

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ah so just accept that the World Bank are wrong, IBEC are right. Nothing to see here. Heads back in the sand. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

its not that the World bank are wrong - they can only use the info given to them
the process underpinning the info they are given by Nigeria is really vague

Do companies like western union release info on where transactions start and end?

Riskymove

Yurt! wrote: »

Well, taken at face value the World Bank figures are a head scratcher and at least one other TD in previous sittings asked more or less the same question without a firestorm.

that's an interesting point

The previous PQ was written and so a matter of fact answer was sent to the TD- i.e. there was no discussion in the House about it so no other TDs to intervene etc

weldoninhio

is_that_so wrote: »

Is this a case of Grealish good, Coppinger bad?

It is more a case of, have an in-depth and thorough investigation, and find out the actual figures.

Although if Coppinger told me the sky was blue i'd still look up.

ollkiller

topper75 wrote: »

I wonder when those constituents heard her shouting at another TD to sit down for just asking a question about unusual arithmetic in the official figures were they thinking "Good on you girl"?.

Not sure how that served them really.

I'd say it would be more on her record on serving issues locally which it what most TD's get voted in on. And to be honest the people who vote for her would probably agree with what she said in the Dail.

Green Peter

I've had 5 recent foreign lotto wins (funds on route) and helpful calls to my grandmother to fix her computer which she doesn't have, I can only say how wrong Noel Freakish is, I think it's the other way round and money is coming into the economy from Nigeria.

BENDYBINN

ollkiller wrote: »

Not having a go at you per se but when i vote for a politician i look at their policies and see which one aligns with mine the most. This crap of i'll vote for him because he speaks his mind. Christ above go into any local pub and you have idiots speaking their mind. But then again i'm living in fairy land when i think people should vote for policies not people when people in Ireland vote for who looks good on a feckin poster.

Yes,but when he speaks his mind and everyone agrees then that’s a different story.

JJayoo

https://www.newstalk.com/news/donohoe-grealish-nigeria-money-924568


Minister Donohoe said the CSO figures indicate that the “money involved in this is between €17m to €20m per year.”

“I have figures in front of me from the CSO that go up to 2017 and those figures indicate that there are remittances going from Ireland to Nigeria – as there are to many other countries all over the world,” he said.

So what are the legit figures?

weldoninhio

Riskymove wrote: »

its not that the World bank are wrong - they can only use the info given to them
the process underpinning the info they are given by Nigeria is really vague

So arethe IBEC figures. So we have two vastly different numbers, with no real clue as to how much actually leaves the country. Doesn't that warrant investigation??

suicide_circus

Yurt! wrote: »

I'm loathe to defend the gobdaw Grealish again, but PWC use the same 'dodgy' figure in their report on the importance of remittances to the Nigerian economy (USD 473m from Ireland to Nigeria for 2017).

So if Grealish used racist figures, so too do PWC.

That figure is larger, than the Nigerian diaspora in Canada (surely larger you would think) send to Naija.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pwc.com/ng/en/pdf/the-economic-power-of-nigerias-diaspora.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjgsvKd9ublAhUCy4sBHe6vAvgQFjAEegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2yKniTpiTn5tQ54_zQpLY6

can facts be racist?

weldoninhio

JJayoo wrote: »

https://www.newstalk.com/news/donohoe-grealish-nigeria-money-924568


Minister Donohoe said the CSO figures indicate that the “money involved in this is between €17m to €20m per year.”

“I have figures in front of me from the CSO that go up to 2017 and those figures indicate that there are remittances going from Ireland to Nigeria – as there are to many other countries all over the world,” he said.

So what are the legit figures?

No one knows, the CSO figure are made up by using the amount of Nigerians here against their average legitimate earnings.

This is something that needs investigation.

Riskymove

weldoninhio wrote: »

So arethe IBEC figures. So we have two vastly different numbers, with no real clue as to how much actually leaves the country. Doesn't that warrant investigation??

what IBEC figures?

Corholio

Yurt! wrote: »

I never said that the World Bank figures were authoritative, a cursory dig reveals they are not. But laypersons could be forgiven for taking the stats of an institution such as the World Bank as somewhat accurate.

The IBEC guy wheeled out less than authoritative CSO figure, and only doubled back on the foggy and unreliable methodology under pressure from other posters. A presumably trained economist doing that is a bit more disengenuos than thicko Grealish not doing his homework on World Bank data compilation methodologies.

Both sides are talking sh*te basically, but the economist probably has the benefit of a higher education on numeracy and statistics so should know better than try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes to further IBECs agenda.

That's a little disingenuous to be fair. It wasn't 'under pressure' from other posters. It was 1 reply to 1 post.

https://twitter.com/GerardBrady100/status/1194378654740045824?s=19.

If it takes 'laypersons' inaccurate figures to suddenly go after this agenda then maybe more homework should be done by elected politicians before they spout them. But we all know why he did of course, it's not exactly rocket science to see his angle here. All figures on both sides are technically 'inaccurate' but considering the World Bank's ones aren't even from the banking system, they are diaspora estimates (contested at that), then it's highly irresponsible of Grealish to use that as his basis. But again, it's obvious why.

alastair

weldoninhio wrote: »

This is something that needs investigation.

It is? On the basis of what exactly?

suicide_circus

where did NG get his figures?

kippy

alastair wrote: »

It is? On the basis of what exactly?

1. Where are the various figures coming from - are they accurate?
2. If they are accurate then this needs to be followed up on. Why is so much money going to one country?
3. If they are not accurate and out by a major factor this needs to be improved on.

What point is there in producing figures that are out by large factors?