Noel Grealish

alastair

kippy wrote: »

1. Where are the various figures coming from - are they accurate?
2. If they are accurate then this needs to be followed up on. Why is so much money going to one country?
3. If they are not accurate and out by a major factor this needs to be improved on.

What point is there in producing figures that are out by large factors?

1. No. The figures are not accurate. As made clear by the mechanisms for defining them.
2. See above.
3. Because...?

Snow Garden

suicide_circus wrote: »

can facts be racist?

Everything is racist these days.

This is what the about us page of the world bank says.

Member Countries

The organizations that make up the World Bank Group are owned by the governments of member nations, which have the ultimate decision-making power within the organizations on all matters, including policy, financial or membership issues.

Member countries govern the World Bank Group through the Boards of Governors and the Boards of Executive Directors. These bodies make all major decisions for the organizations.

To become a member of the Bank, under the IBRD Articles of Agreement, a country must first join the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Membership in IDA, IFC and MIGA are conditional on membership in IBRD.

In tandem with the IMF, and in consultation with other World Bank Group staff, the Corporate Secretariat Vice Presidency coordinates the process for new membership and maintains the information relating to the status of membership which includes the membership lists.

If their figures are all made up, what is the point of the organisation? And why are we a member?

Riskymove

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If their figures are all made up, what is the point of the organisation? And why are we a member?

their figures are not "all made up" there are issues with he figures given by Nigeria on one topic

That topic simply feeds in statistical research. It has little to do with what the World Bank actually does

kippy

alastair wrote: »

1. No. The figures are not accurate. As made clear by the mechanisms for defining them.
2. See above.
3. Because...?

How inaccurate are they? Why use them at all? What other figures are inaccurate - how inaccurate are there? What are we to trust?
Surely these answers require further investigation?

blanch152

alastair wrote: »

You do understand that the Nigerian Government / WTO estimate isn’t based on any Irish remittance data whatsoever? It’s entirely woo.

Where did I say that the WTO estimate is based on Irish remittance data.

The Irish system and the CSO record legitimate remittances leaving the country, and do so inaccurately, as they admit. However, it only includes those going through the official banking system. Given the prevalence of other methods of money transfer including wiring cash, the CSO estimate is most certainly an inaccurate under-estimation.

The CSO data will not record illegitimate money transfers, those transferred outside the banking system, and those transferred through circuitous routes (e.g. to France first, before onwards to Nigeria).

My concern isn't about money going to Nigeria, it is about the potential for a more significant cash economy (or black economy) in Ireland. That isn't about Nigerians, it is actually more about Irish people.



https://www.thejournal.ie/emigrant-remittances-ireland-1433054-Apr2014/

Edit: This link confirms what I am saying: "The total number of PPSNs issued to non-Irish nationals is combined with information about which sectors immigrants are working in. The average earnings for that sector are then taken, and a formula is used to work out how much would be sent home once rent, food, and taxes are deducted."

funnily, finding it very hard to find the original CSO data

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

My concern isn't about money going to Nigeria, it is about the potential for a more significant cash economy (or black economy) in Ireland. That isn't about Nigerians, it is actually more about Irish people.

You mean your real concern is, as always,......*drum roll*... Nordies and Shinners.

Kivaro

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

Aren't we all sure that when Nigerians got to Ireland from one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and bypassed other (less generous) European countries in order to claim asylum here, and when they truthfully submitted their asylum claims and eventually received Irish citizenship ............. are we not certain that any notions or experience of the corruption that they were so familiar with would simply dissipate as Irish citizens in their new generous homeland?

Also, seeing how triggered Ruth Coppinger and some of the usual posters on here because of the audacious accountability question by a TD, I must admit that the reactions are entertaining to say the least.
According to the Irish Examiner today: "Paschal Donohoe 'recoiled' from Noel Grealish's comments about Nigeria".
Oh my ................. "recoiled".

rdwight

Riskymove wrote: »

the figures are not racist

they are simply likely to be very wrong

The whole issue should really end there

No it shouldn't. Somebody (Migrant Rights? IBEC?, journos?, Dept of Finance?)
should put a bit of work in to come up with the most accurate figure possible; is it closer to World Bank or CSO numbers?

If remittance level is very high, a further job of needs to be done to explain why,

If level is "normal", we'll be saved going through same circus again in a couple of years.

Zubeneschamali

blanch152 wrote: »

So there is a discrepancy between the funds that Ireland records leaving the country and going to Nigeria and the funds that the World Bank records as arriving in Nigeria from Ireland.

Why?

Because the World Bank figure is baloney.

Zubeneschamali

rdwight wrote: »

Somebody (Migrant Rights? IBEC?, journos?, Dept of Finance?) should put a bit of work in to come up with the most accurate figure possible; is it closer to World Bank or CSO numbers?

Knock yourself out.

SafeSurfer

How can we ever have a debate about improving a system that has clear shortcomings if every question is shouted down with cries of “racism”.

Racism is treating individuals or groups differently based on the colour of their skin or ethnicity. Not asking questions simply because of ethnicity is essentially racist.

blanch152

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Because the World Bank figure is baloney.

So are the CSO figures.

https://www.thejournal.ie/emigrant-remittances-ireland-1433054-Apr2014/

"The total number of PPSNs issued to non-Irish nationals is combined with information about which sectors immigrants are working in.

The average earnings for that sector are then taken, and a formula is used to work out how much would be sent home once rent, food, and taxes are deducted.

The CSO then checks with equivalent organisations in the receiving countries and compares estimates on how much has come back from Ireland."

It is based on assumptions both about activity in the legitimate economy and also on a formula for calculating the money available.

Nobody has yet to produce a link back to the original CSO statistics, not even those on Twitter I have seen quoting them.

Umaro

Grealish found some seriously inaccurate data and grabbed his dog-whistle. The 10bn was a ridiculous figure to quote, if such a thing were actually occurring every Nigerian over here would be driving a Benz.

All the idiots took the story at face value and came running of course.

Now that the unreliability of the World Bank figures has come out, people now start to question the CSO and complain about discrepancies between the two as they backpedal furiously.

Of course the lie is everywhere around the country now whilst the truth is still putting on its pants. Grealish has sown up another successful re-election before the campaign has been called. I admire him really, reaping votes so easily from people who blame Nigerians for their own crap lives. :rolleyes:

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

So are the CSO figures.

https://www.thejournal.ie/emigrant-remittances-ireland-1433054-Apr2014/



The CSO then checks with equivalent organisations in the receiving countries and compares estimates on how much has come back from Ireland."

.

So the CSO is doing the exact same thing as the world bank and getting its info from the receiving country?

SafeSurfer

Umaro wrote: »

Grealish found some seriously inaccurate data and grabbed his dog-whistle. The 10bn was a ridiculous figure to quote, if such a thing were actually occurring every Nigerian over here would be driving a Benz.

All the idiots took the story at face value and came running of course.

Now that the unreliability of the World Bank figures has come out, people now start to question the CSO and complain about discrepancies between the two as they backpedal furiously.

Of course the lie is everywhere around the country now whilst the truth is still putting on its pants. Grealish has sown up another successful re-election before the campaign has been called. I admire him really, reaping votes so easily from people who blame Nigerians for their own crap lives. :rolleyes:

Is there not a possibility that he will lose votes because he has been branded a racist in headlines all over the country?
Do you think the CSO figures are beyond question?

blanch152

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

So the CSO is doing the exact same thing as the world bank and getting its info from the receiving country?

The CSO is doing the same thing as the World Bank and making assumptions based on limited data. There is no doubt that the methodology of the CSO underestimates remittances to Nigeria, and that the methodology of the World Bank overestimates remittances to Nigeria.

kildare lad

The unemployment rate in Ireland is around 5%, the unemployment rate from Nigerians living in Ireland is at 56% , how is that possible?

Dyr

kildare lad wrote: »

The unemployment rate in Ireland is around 5%, the unemployment rate from Nigerians living in Ireland is at 56% , how is that possible?

Racism and stuff, I'd imagine

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

The CSO is doing the same thing as the World Bank and making assumptions based on limited data. There is no doubt that the methodology of the CSO underestimates remittances to Nigeria, and that the methodology of the World Bank overestimates remittances to Nigeria.

I’d say it warrants investigation from all angles.

Bob Harris

kildare lad wrote: »

The unemployment rate in Ireland is around 5%, the unemployment rate from Nigerians living in Ireland is at 56% , how is that possible?

Indeed it's a strange case of work shy immigrants sending millions of euros out of the country.

Zubeneschamali

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Is there not a possibility that he will lose votes because he has been branded a racist in headlines all over the country?

He doesn't care if he is branded a racist all over the country as long as rural people fearful of African immigrants vote for him. He got great mileage out of his "sponge off the system" remarks in Oughterard, and now this.

blanch152

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I’d say it warrants investigation from all angles.

It is a broader issue than Nigeria. Grealish, through his particularly narrowly focussed prejudice has actually drawn attention to questions about the relative size of the cash economy.

Bob Harris

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He doesn't care if he is branded a racist all over the country as long as rural people fearful of African immigrants vote for him. He got great mileage out of his "sponge off the system" remarks in Oughterard, and now this.

He's only saying what everybody thinks and says privately. As a public figure he puts himself in the firing line when he does but more power to him I say.

suicide_circus

Umaro wrote: »

Grealish found some seriously inaccurate data and grabbed his dog-whistle. The 10bn was a ridiculous figure to quote, if such a thing were actually occurring every Nigerian over here would be driving a Benz.

All the idiots took the story at face value and came running of course.

Now that the unreliability of the World Bank figures has come out, people now start to question the CSO and complain about discrepancies between the two as they backpedal furiously.

Of course the lie is everywhere around the country now whilst the truth is still putting on its pants. Grealish has sown up another successful re-election before the campaign has been called. I admire him really, reaping votes so easily from people who blame Nigerians for their own crap lives. :rolleyes:

fair enough but on a discussion site youre presented with a scenario based on World Bank statistics, people (idiots) are going to run with it at face value

Zubeneschamali

Bob Harris wrote: »

He's only saying what everybody thinks and says privately.

He's only saying what racists say and think privately.

Ronaldinho

Bob Harris wrote: »

Indeed it's a strange case of work shy immigrants sending millions of euros out of the country.

I doubt you can prove that. The data may show a disproportionate amount of remittances to a specific country such as Nigeria but you have no data regarding the sender of those monies do you?

People are jumping to conclusions here about what's driving it. Fwiw I'd say money laundering could be a big driver. This thing of asserting that the Nigerian diaspora in Ireland is sending back 20k a year on average is a load of c0ck imho.

SafeSurfer

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He doesn't care if he is branded a racist all over the country as long as rural people fearful of African immigrants vote for him. He got great mileage out of his "sponge off the system" remarks in Oughterard, and now this.

Do you believe that rural people are more racist than urban people? The alt right in Ireland seem to be mainly urban based.

Annasopra

Snow Garden wrote: »

Paschal just said these remittance figures are difficult to 'model'. Grealish needs to publish his numbers from the world bank.

The world bank are clear on this

"These are analytical estimates based on logical assumptions and derived from a global estimation of bilateral remittance flows worldwide. They are not actual officially reported data."

Roversfan1

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He's only saying what racists say and think privately.

If that is the case it is incredible that so many potential victims of racism choose to see asylum here.

Anyway, if that is the case....what's your next point in the discussion or do you just close it down at that?

There would never have been peace up north if people had your attitude.