Do coders love coding?

bo0li5eumx12kp

Well - do they?

See, I try to be diverse.

Coding basically they're even teaching a primary level now, shows how integral a part of society it is.


I sucked at, and pretty much hated languages at school also.

Is coding just primarily for those who really love it from the word go?

And are really into it?

I learned the basics of javascript which was a calk walk compared to java itself.

I also did a couple semesters in college on C++ and hated it, but wish I paid more attention and it's something I feel I NEED to establish at least a base level of proficiency with if I'm to consider myself a reasonably contemporary critical thinker.

Python seems to be where it's at now and, some of these self taught kids appear to pick it up so easily.


What it is?

What's the mystery of being proficient with coding?

victor8600

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

...What's the mystery of being proficient with coding?

You have probably started at a too high a level with JavaScript. I had started programming in Basic and basically knew all the commands after a few weeks of poking around. Then C, which is also not a very high level language.

Buford T Justice

I started in php & js, and personally I hated working in those languages. I work in Java now, and formerly C# and am much happier in the strictly typed langauages.

And yeah, I love coding / developing software. I'm a code monkey.

Jim2007

If you don't enjoy what you are doing then why would you want to spend the biggest portion of your year doing it? If you don't enjoy it then find something you do enjoying because it will eventually play on your health if you don't.

odyssey06

There is a phenomenon in psychology known as 'flow', aka being in the zone basically you are engrossed in the activity, total focus and lose track of time etc You don't want to be interrupted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

When coding, I am in that zone.
Can also get it putting together a SQL query.

bo0li5eumx12kp

odyssey06 wrote: »

There is a phenomenon in psychology known as 'flow', aka being in the zone basically you are engrossed in the activity, total focus and lose track of time etc You don't want to be interrupted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

When coding, I am in that zone.
Can also get it putting together a SQL query.

Flow states.

I'm familiar with them - and can relate quite well to what you're saying.

Let me put it his way;

I don't think every single person who gets into a swimming pool aspires to be a top level swimmer, olympian, or even compete.
Some folk just wanna know how to swim so they can enjoy the water - and maybe they'll develop a proficiency in their own little way - take an interest in their own little way.

In coding terms; that doesn't mean they want to write the next OS software, design the latest web technology - they just want to know how to handle themselves, put together base pieces of code for some simpler applications, or just understand how coding languages work.

Core concepts - I could start there.

Even learning a spoken language - core concepts - to "be", and to "have" - basic conjugations, and then add to it with vocabulary.
To me that's the basis of learning spoken languages.

Could it be said that anyone who develops fluency in a second language is in a second language "flow state"?

smacl

Another life long code monkey here. Started in the early 80s with BASIC, Z80, Forth. Then fell in love with Pascal followed by C and C++ which I've been programming in ever since. I really enjoy solving problems in code much the same way others might enjoy a crossword or soduko. High performance spatial algorithms is what I mostly love these days and also manages to pay the bills and keep me in beer and pretzels so all good.

If you don't much like coding find something you do like doing that pays enough to survive. Life is short.

28064212

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

it's something I feel I NEED to establish at least a base level of proficiency with if I'm to consider myself a reasonably contemporary critical thinker.

What a strange sentiment. Why not Physics, or Accounting, or Geology, or Art, or Mathematics, or ...? Why have you selected coding as something that you need some level of proficiency at?

Buford T Justice

28064212 wrote: »

What a strange sentiment. Why not Physics, or Accounting, or Geology, or Art, or Mathematics, or ...? Why have you selected coding as something that you need some level of proficiency at?

I'd hazard a guess because that's where the consensus tells you / people where the money is these days.

bo0li5eumx12kp

28064212 wrote: »

What a strange sentiment. Why not Physics, or Accounting, or Geology, or Art, or Mathematics, or ...? Why have you selected coding as something that you need some level of proficiency at?

Not for money.

I already have an area of interest that pays well and allows me to live well (and there's plenty of work in it also).

It's not something I would consider doing for money.

I guess I just stay hungry to learn, and learning some level of basic coding to "keep up" with a fast evolving society.

And to understand those "core concepts" - educational institutions seem to bog students down with hyperbole that blurs the core concepts before you've even got there - makes learning so difficult sometimes it seems impossible.

No wonder I hated languages at school - yet a couple years ago self taught myself a second language in 12 months.

beauf

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

Well - do they?

See, I try to be diverse.

Coding basically they're even teaching a primary level now, shows how integral a part of society it is.


..
What's the mystery of being proficient with coding?

It's s bit like asking about any job. Some people love what they do. Someone aren't that bothered but are just good at it. Some people don't like their job but can do it.

Same with coders. Only difference is most people will never be able to code. It's not logical to them it's too abstract or too boring. Some people are bad at it. Some just aren't interested.

Jim2007

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I guess I just stay hungry to learn, and learning some level of basic coding to "keep up" with a fast evolving society.

Most people don't learn to code, not really code.... so you not do something that interests you?

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

No wonder I hated languages at school - yet a couple years ago self taught myself a second language in 12 months.

In 12 months, nope simply not possible. Any language school will tell you it takes about two years of full time courses to get to A2 level, which means you could just about survive in a language and a further two years time get to B1 which would mean you could work through the language.

Here in Switzerland you are required to speak the local language at A2 to get a permanent resident visa. I know lots of people who have left it until the last twelve months to do the courses and not one of them passed. It is just not possible.

smacl

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

I guess I just stay hungry to learn, and learning some level of basic coding to "keep up" with a fast evolving society.

And to understand those "core concepts" - educational institutions seem to bog students down with hyperbole that blurs the core concepts before you've even got there - makes learning so difficult sometimes it seems impossible.

I think it is a fantastic idea to learn something like programming purely for the fun of it rather than as means to make money. In my opinion quite a lot of commercial programming is deathly boring whereas self directed hobby programming can be very rewarding and I'd tend to agree that you'll learn quicker. There's a ton of resources out there for self learners in just about every field of computing and the same again for quite modestly priced self paced courses.

bo0li5eumx12kp

smacl wrote: »

I think it is a fantastic idea to learn something like programming purely for the fun of it rather than as means to make money. In my opinion quite a lot of commercial programming is deathly boring whereas self directed hobby programming can be very rewarding and I'd tend to agree that you'll learn quicker. There's a ton of resources out there for self learners in just about every field of computing and the same again for quite modestly priced self paced courses.

Downloaded a book on basic python.

Probably get my hands on a Python for Dummies also.

Do you write?
Would you say it's an "all in" discipline, or some basic peripheral work to gain an understanding rather than a dedicated position, is feasible?

TuringBot47

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

Downloaded a book on basic python.

Probably get my hands on a Python for Dummies also.

Best way to learn is to have some pet project in mind.

For example interacting with home devices like Google nest, a security camera, a wireless doorbell, a simple web server/service. Processing video from a dashboard camera, recognising objects in a photo.
There's a lot of libraries out there to help.

And if you like python you might buy a Raspberry Pi W Zero to run your code on, hook it up to a usb powerbank and you have a mobile computer/embedded device.

smacl

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

Downloaded a book on basic python.

Probably get my hands on a Python for Dummies also.

Do you write?
Would you say it's an "all in" discipline, or some basic peripheral work to gain an understanding rather than a dedicated position, is feasible?

Perfectly reasonable to learn how to code profieciently on a part time leisure basis, where the speed of your progress will be determined by the time and effort you put in. While it sounds stupid, start out just by diving in. Get your beginners books, go through couple of chapters 3-4 times a week and you'll get up to speed very quickly. I'd also agree entirely with TuringBot47, once you've got the bare basics down, get a pet project on the go and make what you're doing fun.

WhiteMemento9

It highly depends on the job but in many cases, the way Software Development has gone sucks the life out of any enjoyment. Sprints, constant meetings, deadlines, testing, the constant need for the business to quantify work done so always trying to find better and better ways to track and quantify work. It doesn't feel as creative or enjoyable when all those get thrown in the mix.

But the problem with that is that hobby coding isn’t at all like coding for work. Very few coding jobs allow you to do the kind of work that hobby coders enjoy. I think in many ways the industry is becoming a lot like the programming portrayed in Snow Crash, which was written in 1992 but reads as almost an oracle:

She is an applications programmer for the Feds. In the old days, she would have written computer programs for a living. Nowadays, she writes fragments of computer programs. These programs are designed by Marietta and Marietta’s superiors in massive week-long meetings on the top floor. Once they get the design down, they start breaking up the problem into tinier and tinier segments, assigning them to group managers, who break them down even more and feed little bits of work to the individual programmers. In order to keep the work done by the individual coders from colliding, it all has to be done according to a set of rules and regulations even bigger and more fluid than the Government procedure manual.

There are certainly more engaging jobs out there, but the reality is a lot of us do work on little fragments, work that is often tedious and devoid of any kind of creativity. As a developer I’ve often had trouble figuring out if a job would be Snow Crashy or not, and been seduced by promises of engaging work only to find myself ferreting out bugs on some enterprise CMS.

https://medium.com/@melissamcewen/i-just-dont-want-to-be-a-software-developer-anymore-a371422069a1

skallywag

Depends what you are doing exactly, coding tends to be a catch-all for quite a lot of very different things these days.

If you are doing embedded work then it is very very interesting in my opinion, e.g. implementing algos or other DSP in C which will run on MCUs. On the other hard I find higher level stuff much more mundane.

L.Jenkins

It depends on the person and the languages they use. I dislike languages like Javascript and PHP, including there libraries like Laravel, Vue, React etc.

I do however, enjoy C/C++/C#, Java, Python and scripting languages such as Bash. I also like to mix it up with DevOps and System Administration.

pillphil

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

It highly depends on the job but in many cases, the way Software Development has gone sucks the life out of any enjoyment. Sprints, constant meetings, deadlines, testing, the constant need for the business to quantify work done so always trying to find better and better ways to track and quantify work. It doesn't feel as creative or enjoyable when all those get thrown in the mix.



https://medium.com/@melissamcewen/i-just-dont-want-to-be-a-software-developer-anymore-a371422069a1

You think testing is a bad thing?

WhiteMemento9

pillphil wrote: »

You think testing is a bad thing?

I don't but it bores the living daylights out of me having to do it often with more and more emphasis on coverage for coverage sake which just adds to sucking the enjoyment which was my overall point.

amen

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I don't but it bores the living daylights out of me having to do it often with more and more emphasis on coverage for coverage sake which just adds to sucking the enjoyment which was my overall point.

Automate your testing.

smacl

amen wrote: »

Automate your testing.

Automated testing isn't a substitute for manual testing. Good for regressing test cases on existing functionality but not so much use on new functionality. Better off going for exploratory testing which is interesting enough work. Michael Bolton's testing blog is worth a read on this.

amen

smacl wrote: »

Automated testing isn't a substitute for manual testing. Good for regressing test cases on existing functionality but not so much use on new functionality. Better off going for exploratory testing which is interesting enough work. Michael Bolton's testing blog is worth a read on this.

Nice blog. Thanks.

lainey_d_123

Jim2007 wrote: »

Most people don't learn to code, not really code.... so you not do something that interests you?



In 12 months, nope simply not possible. Any language school will tell you it takes about two years of full time courses to get to A2 level, which means you could just about survive in a language and a further two years time get to B1 which would mean you could work through the language.

Sorry no, that is utter rubbish. Nobody without severe learning difficulties would take anywhere near two years of full-time courses to get to A2 level, even in a 'difficult' language like Chinese. I worked in a language school for a while and plenty of people would get through a level in 3 months or so, with 3-4 hours of classes per day.

I started German as a beginner and was at B1 level within six months and that was doing part-time study (2 x 2-hour classes per week after work and a few hours a week of self study) and no immersion, bar a few short trips to Switzerland for work. I might have more of a natural aptitude than most but all of my colleagues had achieved at least A2 level in the same timeframe.

Here in Switzerland you are required to speak the local language at A2 to get a permanent resident visa. I know lots of people who have left it until the last twelve months to do the courses and not one of them passed. It is just not possible.

I cannot fathom how someone can do twelve months of courses and still be unable to pass an A2 level exam. Especially when they are living in the area where the language is spoken. There's something missing here. Either they didn't take the courses seriously, had zero motivation, the exam was weirdly designed and unintuitive or they are incredibly slow.

Honestly, A2 is a very, very low level. It's a level you need for any sort of basic conversation (beyond the bare essentials) or interaction with people. If you're living somewhere and aren't arsed to learn the language to that level (and have no impairments which would make learning hard for you), you don't deserve the visa, in my book.

SKITLZ

Some people proficient in painting, others in singing and others in programming. I guess it comes from your upbringing and how much time you've spent solving relative problems or doing similar activities.

Also, my great-grandfather, grandfather, father and my older bother - all good at math. So I guess I've the gene, or at least some predisposition to math and coding as well. I wasn't interested in it while at school or university, but it's nice that it was relatively easy for me.

I've also spent most my childhood infornt of PC (since I was 7, I'm 25 now), so I naturally understood more about it than my peers.

I'm doing frontend web developing for 2 years now after a few years of searching for potential career directions. I've studied for about 2-3 months and got a junior position job.

So, yeah. To summ things up: I think it's a combination of upbringing, some genes and what you've been doing most of your life. You develop natural strengths in some area of life. It just so happens for some people coding is their natural strength.

jmcc

Jim2007 wrote: »

In 12 months, nope simply not possible. Any language school will tell you it takes about two years of full time courses to get to A2 level, which means you could just about survive in a language and a further two years time get to B1 which would mean you could work through the language.

There's a big difference between human languages and coding languages. With human languages, it is all about the ideas that one wants to communicate. With coding it is about what one wants to do.

With coding languages, it is possible to pick up the basics of another language in a few hours if one is already proficient in a coding language. But proficiency and productivity are completely different issues. It can take as long as five years of continual use to be able to "think" in a computer language.

Regards...jmcc

BrokenArrows

Do all coders/developers love it? Well No.

Its just like any other job. Some people are passionate about it and others are just working the hours and going home.

Some people are naturally gifted at it, and others are just able to do the job after studying and learning.

bpmurray

All good coders love coding. They see a programming task as akin to a crossword or suduko. Look at the kids at Coderdojo - they're absolutely engrossed in what they do. In particular, there's a great sense of achievement when everything works.

Of course, there are times when the task is mind-numbingly boring. Even when trying to find a bug in some archaic code, there's a sense of solving a puzzle, so it can suck you in and still gives that sense of achievement.

Clearly that's not how everyone's mind is wired, so don't sweat it if you're not one of these. If you're in the computer industry, you probably know that bringing something to market is only around 30% development. The rest is design, planning, marketing, managing, etc. So if you're not really into coding but have an appreciation of software development, there's plenty of room in the other 70% of the process.

bo0li5eumx12kp

bpmurray wrote: »

All good coders love coding. They see a programming task as akin to a crossword or suduko. Look at the kids at Coderdojo - they're absolutely engrossed in what they do. In particular, there's a great sense of achievement when everything works.

Of course, there are times when the task is mind-numbingly boring. Even when trying to find a bug in some archaic code, there's a sense of solving a puzzle, so it can suck you in and still gives that sense of achievement.

Clearly that's not how everyone's mind is wired, so don't sweat it if you're not one of these. If you're in the computer industry, you probably know that bringing something to market is only around 30% development. The rest is design, planning, marketing, managing, etc. So if you're not really into coding but have an appreciation of software development, there's plenty of room in the other 70% of the process.

But it's fair to say that coding/development is the true heartbeat of the process?

And if one wanted to challenge their critical thinking ability, it's the realm of coding that would present the greatest challenge?

28064212

Mitchell Delicious Ivy wrote: »

And if one wanted to challenge their critical thinking ability, it's the realm of coding that would present the greatest challenge?

Define "critical thinking ability"? Regardless, the answer will be no. Some coding tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some mathematical tasks challenge critical thinking ability. Some literature, art, physics, accounting... tasks challenge critical thinking ability.