Automatic versus manual for a mix of driving?

worded

Ive always driven a manual but recently drove an automatic and it was very pleasant in traffic.

My dad was anti Automatic as he said the gears fail more often years ago and they use way more fuel ...

If I was to get a 1.6 to 2.0 Automatic car that was circa 2010 what are the main disadvantages to manual? Is there that much of a fuel difference ?

thanks

Alanstrainor

Auto all the way. It will depend on the box, but a lot are much more efficient and faster than a manual. If in traffic it's amazing. There's a lot of different types of automatic gearboxes, some old school some modern so it will depend on the cars you like.

Leroy42

Yeah, I agree with the US on this one. Auto is the way to go.

Previously they were less efficient, less robust and of course, as they still are, more expensive.

But the move in motor sport to move automated gear boxes, not fully but in many cases tiptronic and the likes, have moved the technology on massively.

I was going to opt for Auto recently but held off because of the extra cost and the fact that it would be harder to resell. In addition, we are fast moving towards electric and hybrid and they are going to mostly be autos so I think the move will happen over time regardless.

colm_mcm

Look at the likes of a Prius. Biblical reliability and good fuel economy too.

galwaytt

worded wrote: »

Ive always driven a manual but recently drove an automatic and it was very pleasant in traffic.

My dad was anti Automatic as he said the gears fail more often years ago and they use way more fuel ...

If I was to get a 1.6 to 2.0 Automatic car that was circa 2010 what are the main disadvantages to manual? Is there that much of a fuel difference ?

thanks

maybe in a Cortina Mk3...

Modern auto's are much better, and in many cases now use less juice, not more, than their manual equivalents.

Even if they weren't, for city driving, auto is the er, 'automatic' choice tbh. One by One we've changed all our cars as we've changed them, to automatic.

Rowley Birkin QC

My current car is an auto with flappy paddles. I'm in manual rental cars frequently and don't think I'd ever spend my own money on one again, barring something silly for the weekends.

biko

Your dad is right that a long time ago there was a discrepancy, but it's not true any more.
There may be some diffs in fuel but it's negligible I think considering that if you slow down a little it will have a bigger impact of your economy.

coylemj

worded wrote: »

My dad was anti Automatic as he said the gears fail more often years ago and they use way more fuel ...

I believe they do use more fuel. How much more depends, I suppose, on your driving style. On reliability, Garda patrol cars in Dublin have been automatic since at least the 1970s and they get a fair amount of usage.

One thing to remember about having an auto in the familiy is that if you have a son or daughter who is about to start to take driving lessons, they should probably learn and (deffo) do the test in a manual in order to get an unrestricted licence. If you have an auto, they should probably do all of their instruction and the test in the driving school car which will cost a bit more.

colm_mcm

coylemj wrote: »

Garda patrol cars in Dublin have been automatic since at least the 1970s and they get a fair amount of usage.

Really?

mikeecho

coylemj wrote: »

Garda patrol cars in Dublin have been automatic since at least the 1970s and they get a fair amount of usage..

No they haven't.

In fact AGS actually avoid buying Autos.

There are a few exceptions, such as some ASU vehicles.

freddieot

coylemj wrote: »

Garda patrol cars in Dublin have been automatic since at least the 1970s and they get a fair amount of usage.

They used Avengers and Renault 18s a lot during the 1970s. None of those were auto and I can never remember seeing any autos in use by AGS until a few years ago (Q7s, X5s etc.)

coylemj

freddieot wrote: »

They used Avengers and Renault 18s a lot during the 1970s. None of those were auto and I can never remember seeing any autos in use by AGS until a few years ago (Q7s, X5s etc.)

The standard patrol car in Dublin in the late 70s & early 80s was the Cortina, all of them were automatic.

Guess I haven't had a lift from AGS in a while - I assumed the patrol cars in Dublin were still automatic. It was policy, on account of the amount of stop/start driving involved when doing patrols around the city.

893bet

Recent convert to auto box.

Never go back.

khaldrogo

worded wrote: »

.......what are the main disadvantages to manual?.......

The loss of your soul would be the main one.....

Leonard Hofstadter

I'd prefer a manual for the mechanical simplicity and the added driver interaction and involvement. With the right engine and gearbox it's really no hassle having to change the gears yourself because the box is so slick and precise coupled with a nicely weighted clutch, but so much more enjoyable on your favourite country road than an automatic. Also better for towing and you've more control over the car in harsh weather thanks to the engine braking.

However, they only really work well in a petrol. They're generally awful in diesels, you need to be on the boil the whole time and compared to a petrol they're very unforgiving of being in the wrong gear. They're often painful around town because you have to change to second gear much earlier than in a petrol. Coupled with a gearbox that is usually heavier and less slick than their petrol equivalents, they're a bit of a pain to drive really. Autos disguise the narrow power bands most diesels have beautifully and make them much more relaxing to drive. I wouldn't buy a diesel unless it was an automatic quite frankly.

mikeecho

coylemj wrote: »

The standard patrol car in Dublin in the late 70s & early 80s was the Cortina, all of them were automatic.

Guess I haven't had a lift from AGS in a while - I assumed the patrol cars in Dublin were still automatic. It was policy, on account of the amount of stop/start driving involved when doing patrols around the city.

Stop talking ... Please.

Tacitus Kilgore

Garda cars have chips and a special box that makes them way faster than all the other cars on the road.










*Curry chips & a snack box maybe

zilog_jones

khaldrogo wrote: »

The loss of your soul would be the main one.....

So you have some emotional attachment to playing around with some weird mechanical stick and a pedal? I've driven many amazing roads in automatics and did not think once that I regretted not having a manual at the time.

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I'd prefer a manual for the mechanical simplicity and the added driver interaction and involvement.

I'd rather be able to focus more on the road ahead of me and actually steering and stuff rather than having to keep track of gearbox ratios.

Would you prefer having a manual choke too? And a manual ignition retard lever, like on a Model T? Where do you draw the line?

Also better for towing and you've more control over the car in harsh weather thanks to the engine braking.

Automatics usually have some way of holding lower gears for the purpose of engine braking, be it "L" or "B" or whatever.

Zubeneschamali

zilog_jones wrote: »

Would you prefer having a manual choke too? And a manual ignition retard lever, like on a Model T? Where do you draw the line?

I prefer to start my car with the crank handle - you get much more feel than with these fancy electric starter motors.

Wibbs

I'd reckon 90% of drivers would be better served by an auto(and in Ireland an EV). There's little point in asking an older generation who grew up with three speed autoboxes that clunked lazily between gears while turning the car into a well engineered fuel leak. They had a bad rep for good reasons. The newer stuff is infinitely better.

Leonard Hofstadter

zilog_jones wrote: »

Would you prefer having a manual choke too? And a manual ignition retard lever, like on a Model T? Where do you draw the line?

Typical auto snobbery comment there.

I have driven some of the best automatics out there (VW's DSG, as well as BMW's DCT and 8 speed ZF spring to mind), so I'm well aware of how good automatics can be, yet despite this, I still prefer a good manual gearbox in the same way I much prefer hydraulic power steering to electric power steering - both involve the driver much more in the process of driving and give the driver much more control.

A slick gearbox coupled a nicely weighted clutch, revvy engine with a good and linear powerband makes driving more enjoyable. Plus some automatics are decidedly iffy reliability wise as the miles pile on. I know it's not true any more but even until quite recently automatics sapped power and fuel economy, too.

Wibbs

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I much prefer hydraulic power steering to electric power steering

Jaysus yes, a thousand times yes. Now I believe some of the latest leccy power steering systems are much better, but I've yet to drive one anyway. But I'd still say for most people out there who are essentially all about getting from a to B in as comfortable a fashion as possible autos are a better bet in general. Plus more and more are going the PCP route so their cars will always be new/covered under warranty. In the secondhand market I'd be less sure though. Then again I've a couple of mates who are the near cliche of the middle aged Irish bloke with a Beemer and they've had bugger all issues with their secondhand cars or their autoboxes.

khaldrogo

Cripes!!! You seem to be quite offended by random people on the internet having opinions that differ to yours...........you should see someone about that.

zilog_jones wrote: »

So you have some emotional attachment to playing around with some weird mechanical stick and a pedal? I've driven many amazing roads in automatics and did not think once that I regretted not having a manual at the time.



I'd rather be able to focus more on the road ahead of me and actually steering and stuff rather than having to keep track of gearbox ratios.

Would you prefer having a manual choke too? And a manual ignition retard lever, like on a Model T? Where do you draw the line?


Automatics usually have some way of holding lower gears for the purpose of engine braking, be it "L" or "B" or whatever.

So, let's take this one at a time.........

Yes I do have an emotional attachment.

It may be a weird stick to you but to me, a mechanic, I know exactly how it works and appreciate it even more for that.

I've driven around Europe, Australia, America in manual cars and on manual bikes. Never even thought about an automatic in that time.... imagine that! Different people have different likes and dislikes! Well I never!!!......

If driving a manual distracts you then it's probably better you do drive an auto......also, I've never counted a gear ratio while driving. Can you explain how that works?

Many bikes I've owned in recent years have had manual chokes.....great fun altogether.
And I draw the line at Auto gearboxes FYI.

The run of the mill automatic car driver knows P, R, N, D.........and in a situation where engine braking would be necessary, like stopping in a hurry, will just plant both feet on the brake pedal and pray.


In summary, you do you and I'll do me, with a soul.

teediddlyeye

Auto all the way. 99% of the time a manual is a waste in the average car doing average a to b driving.

How else are you supposed to eat a burger and text while driving?

Manuals are for bikes and rally cars!

Leonard Hofstadter

Wibbs wrote: »

Jaysus yes, a thousand times yes. Now I believe some of the latest leccy power steering systems are much better, but I've yet to drive one anyway.

Whatever about automatics, I'm immovable on electric steering! I have yet to drive a car that has steering as good as the hydraulic power steering in my E46, although the E92 M3 and the E39 would run it very very close. The Mondeo Mk4 also has very good steering (a bit too light but otherwise very communicative), but that's also hydraulic so no surprise why it's so good. Surprisingly, the Mk1 Volvo S40 did well on this front, much more communicative than you might expect. Again, that has hydraulic power steering. On the other hand, 90s Corollas had dreadful steering and in fact the electric power steering modern Toyotas have is better, so that's proof that I'm not totally biased towards hydraulic .

Wibbs

+1000 on the 90s Corollas. Bloody awful. Funny enough I found the E46's steering a bit woolly TBH. Now this was an M3 and I only drove it for a few hours a few times and it could well have been in need of new bushings/droplinks etc(I seem to recall him needing to replace them a couple of times. Bloody lovely looking car, fantastic brakes), so caveats apply. Goes for any car with miles on it and limited seat time.

Depends on personal taste too. The best steering I've experienced were both Lotus and decades apart in age. An Exige and a 60's Elan.* Unreal levels of feel, no slop, total connection. On the other hand that level of connection doesn't exactly make for a relaxing drive. You have to be "on" all the time, or at least I did. Again you could drive either with worn components/wrong tyres/bad setup and come away wondering what the fuss was.





*the 90's Elan I drove was dire though. Damn thing understeered just sitting still. Yet you hear them praised all over the place.

zilog_jones

khaldrogo wrote: »

It may be a weird stick to you but to me, a mechanic, I know exactly how it works and appreciate it even more for that.

I know how it works too, but I don't have any desire to get directly involved in it when a computer can probably do a better job and controlling it. (I don't mean automatic clutch type auto boxes, they seem generally terrible).

But let's get back to the OP here - they're talking about a daily driver, e.g. "in traffic". What advantage is there to driving a manual in these situations? For a daily driver, one requirement for me would be comfort - driving an automatic in traffic, motorways, etc. equals more comfort IMO.

I wouldn't mind having a manual classic or whatever for weekends (if I could afford it), but for commutes or 200km+ journeys? Nah.

If driving a manual distracts you then it's probably better you do drive an auto......

I can change gears in a manual without really thinking, but I still have to actually do it and that must require some level of brain activity - and taking one hand off the wheel.

also, I've never counted a gear ratio while driving. Can you explain how that works?

You need to keep track of what gear you're in and change accordingly for the conditions and engine speed. You generally don't need to care when driving an auto.

The run of the mill automatic car driver knows P, R, N, D.........and in a situation where engine braking would be necessary, like stopping in a hurry, will just plant both feet on the brake pedal and pray.

Engine braking isn't really that useful for stopping in a hurry, unless your brakes are shîte. The main need for it is on long descents where there's risk of cooking your brakes.

In summary, you do you and I'll do me, with a soul.

I just don't get how changing gears manually equates to "soul". I like cars, but I'd never give one a name or use gendered pronouns either, so I guess I just don't think that way about machines.

One more thing (not relevant to OP though): I've never raced a car in real life, but in simulations - heel-toe braking while trying to downshift and rev-match correctly is a pain in the arse! There's a reason why modern sports cars do some (or all) or that automatically.

Wibbs

zilog_jones wrote: »

You need to keep track of what gear you're in and change accordingly for the conditions and engine speed.

Pure reflex muscle memory. No conscious thought should be required, unless someone is a learner.

One more thing (not relevant to OP though): I've never raced a car in real life, but in simulations - heel-toe braking while trying to downshift and rev-match correctly is a pain in the arse!

Simulations? Not some video game surely?

It's just another simple learned muscle memory action at the same level as changing gears in a manual gearbox. It isn't just for the race track either. Makes for smoother shifts and less stress on transmission components. Now tbh I only learned it because of my dad(he started driving in the '30's*) and assumed at the time it's what you did. I certainly didn't learn it for racing or any of that and with gearboxes in any car in the last 30 years most certainly not not a requirement. Ditto for double declutching(unless your synchros are buggered).

Though I agree 100% with you as far as the OP goes, 90% of people who drive a car would be fine, if not better off with an auto and since more and more EV's are on the roads it'll soon enough be a moot point anyway. I'd also agree re engine braking.




* I'm not that old, He married later in life.

speedbird834

I recently switched to automatic after driving manuals for over 20 years. It's the way to go.
Only thing I dislike is having to keep your foot on the brake when stopped at traffic lights (been told that it's better to do that than shift into neutral or park constantly which leads to more wear and tear).

earlytobed

speedbird834 wrote: »

I recently switched to automatic after driving manuals for over 20 years. It's the way to go.
Only thing I dislike is having to keep your foot on the brake when stopped at traffic lights (been told that it's better to do that than shift into neutral or park constantly which leads to more wear and tear).

Is this true or a myth?

lolokeogh

have drove autos the last 10/12 years maybe more,maximas,civics,lancer and never had any issues at all apart from the norm,and never ever had gearbox problems touch wood..the cars i have do very high miles...

zilog_jones

I'd normally put it in neutral with the parking brake on if I knew I'd be waiting a while. Even less of an issue with cars with electronic parking brakes.

I wouldn't recommend putting it in park - if the selector is linear it will mean your reverse lights flash (looks weird/concerning to those behind you), and the car may rock forward or back slightly.

wassie

I love this debate in this country.

IMHO, the vast majority of drivers in this country who are using their cars for their daily commute simply don't know any better because our market is skewed to manuals. Yes once manuals were more economical, but this is no longer the case with most modern auto transmissions.

I'm amazed at how many peeps still think the old adage that autos are 'uneconomical' and somehow less advanced or offer reduced driving experience. "It doesn't feel like proper driving". One only has to spend a couple of hours on the M50 carpark during a traffic jam appreciate the comfort of an auto.

I accept that for the enthusiast and the 'dyed-in-the-wool', an auto will never do, but clearly the rest of world is moving that way as manual transmissions now account for around 40% of all cars.

It annoys the hell out of me that Govt policy with its expensive VRT taxation regime on new vehicles forces manufacturers to supply stripped down versions of their cars to the Irish market compared to other countries in order to make them competitive. Autos transmissions are generally the first casualty. In other countries where autos dominate sales, autos come as standard.

I loved driving in Australia, where now less than 10% of all new vehicles sold are manual, with the vast majority being base model light utility/commercial vehicles where purchase price is the biggest factor. In America, its 1.2%.

creedp

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'd normally put it in neutral with the parking brake on if I knew I'd be waiting a while. Even less of an issue with cars with electronic parking brakes.

I wouldn't recommend putting it in park - if the selector is linear it will mean your reverse lights flash (looks weird/concerning to those behind you), and the car may rock forward or back slightly.

Was behind a car in heavy traffic yesterday evening and every time the car stopped and took off the reverse lights flashed. A bit disconcerting at first but got used to it after a while. I always hold the car on the foot brake but obviously this can also be a pain for the car behind

speedbird834

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'd normally put it in neutral with the parking brake on if I knew I'd be waiting a while. Even less of an issue with cars with electronic parking brakes.

I wouldn't recommend putting it in park - if the selector is linear it will mean your reverse lights flash (looks weird/concerning to those behind you), and the car may rock forward or back slightly.

Ah .... so would you leave it in Drive and engage the EPB then at lights for example? Maybe that's what I should do...

Heres Johnny

speedbird834 wrote: »

Ah .... so would you leave it in Drive and engage the EPB then at lights for example? Maybe that's what I should do...

Neutral and handbrake would be my take on it. Don't think I like the idea of drive and handbrake, not sure why I just don't.
But I just leave in drive and footbrake unless I know its going to be a long wait

Zubeneschamali

speedbird834 wrote: »

Only thing I dislike is having to keep your foot on the brake when stopped at traffic lights (been told that it's better to do that than shift into neutral or park constantly which leads to more wear and tear).

Very annoying for the person behind you, especially in a recent model with LED brakelights burning their retinas out.

AndyBoBandy

Auto all the way for me.

My mother bought a new Avensis in 2007 & 2009, they were both auto's. 1.8 petrol with a 4 speed auto box (which was horrendous on fuel on the motorway, but such a pleasure to drive).

I've had a 2006 320d since 2012, it's a 6 speed auto and after 300,000km, it's still as smooth now as a lot of brand new rentals I've driven over the last few years (Mercs, Beemers, Volvo's Audi's etc...)

Banzai600

our household has driven auto for yrs, granted smaller size cars, 1.0 to 1.3 ltr nissan & suzuki etc but they are a no brainer. The only thing i will say is they are a little heavier on petrol - well my micra was 2009 was , but have a smaller 2006 toyota now, not too bad avg 45/50 mpg in city and 60 mpg at 90/100kms on motorway.

we also have a larger nissan auto which is ideal , a little heavy on juice again around city but on open road its negligible compared to manual.

there is a stigma attached to autos in this country, why i dont know.

i reckon if more ppl drove autos - traffic would be better = by the time the drivers put their phones down they can then accelerate , as opposed to putting the phones down, then putting car in gear etc. But the downside is they will use their phones even more.

i also ride motorbikes but mainly use a scooter a lot for the city, just so much handier.


Even in snow / ice and ive been in the worst of the weathers over the years, i think with the auto on hills and take off, you get much much better traction when taking off particularly - without doubt on snow / ice. And sitting in traffic, its not a pain in the whole having to clutch etc all the time.

anyone contemplating should do it, but im sure the car dealers will make you pay for it if buying new.

zilog_jones

speedbird834 wrote: »

Ah .... so would you leave it in Drive and engage the EPB then at lights for example? Maybe that's what I should do...

It depends on the car, really - what type of transmission, and how the parking brake is implemented. The manual may have some recommendations on what to do.

My Dad bought his dad a new car in 2002.
He drove it for 5 years before releasing it had a 5th gear!

AndyBoBandy

I spent a few months in upstate New York (near Albany) about 15 years ago while attending my companies training college, and had to share an apartment & car with an older lad from Croatia. The car was a Nissan Altima (2.5L), and he'd never driven auto before.

In a lot of Auto's you'd see, they'd have a few options to select for driving. Obviously D was 'Drive', but a lot of them would have a 1, 2 & 3 to select as well, so if you select '2', it won't go higher than 2nd gear, and so on for 1 & 3.

The odd time the Croat would drive in in the morning, I'd always notice he'd select '3' instead of 'D', and the engine would be screaming at high revs in 3rd gear, so I'd always knock it over to 'D' on the sly which was next to the '3' he'd select.

Eventually after about 3-4 times I explained to him how it worked (with great difficulty), and he said that it made sense alright as when he drove down to New York City a few weeks previously, he had to stop twice to fill the car up with petrol!! (it was only about a 340 mile round trip).

Low Energy Eng

I went manual -> auto -> manual -> auto
When I had the auto initially I thought I missed the manual... But couldn't wait to get rid of the car after I went manual again.
I'm converted to auto.

Some of the autos are lightning quick gear changes and it makes driving more fun imo.

trellheim

There are a few CVTs around - 2006 model GS450h for example but the new ones are auto boxes, they are a joy to drive.

theres an electronic holder button you can use ( not a parking brake) that will hold the car at lights and a slight tap on the accelerator will unlock and set you off again this saves you the typical foot on the brake at lights.

In addition if you have the latest adaptive cruise it will work all the way down to 0 kph and halt the vehicle and again a slight tap will set it off again, makes life very easy on crawling motorway traffic

zilog_jones

trellheim wrote: »

There are a few CVTs around - 2006 model GS450h for example but the new ones are auto boxes, they are a joy to drive.

All Lexus hybrids use CVT boxes (planetary gearset though, not belts and pulleys), it's just the newer ones may have fake discrete ratios.

I think CVT is fine if done right.

mikeecho

Both myself and the Mrs, both have autos as our daily drives.(diesel)

Wouldn't go back to manual., Anyway with the move to EVs , almost everything will be auto in a few years.

Wibbs

mikeecho wrote: »

Anyway with the move to EVs , almost everything will be auto in a few years.

Exactly M, that's going to be the major shift(no pun). In ten or twenty years time any manuals on the roads will almost certainly be classic or vintage cars.

AndyBoBandy

Wibbs wrote: »

In ten or twenty years time any manuals on the roads will almost certainly be classic or vintage cars.

or Garda Hyundai i30's

Tacitus Kilgore

Wibbs wrote: »

Exactly M, that's going to be the major shift(no pun). In ten or twenty years time any manuals on the roads will almost certainly be classic or vintage cars.

I'm completely happy for all motors going forward to be auto ev's, keep the manual dinosaur burners for the classics - everyone knows the holy grail of motoring was from 1986 - 1999, anything after that ain't worth the plastic it's made of

Wibbs

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

everyone knows the holy grail of motoring was from 1986 - 1999

the 1920's says: Hold my beer.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

I have a manual and now wish it was an auto
I also wish it wasnt a skoda ( sorry , had to get that in there )