Formula 1 2019 - Round 20 - Brazil

Cork Trucker

Autosport wrote: »

Couldn’t wipe the smile from my face to see Vettel with a puncture Poor Leclare

Istanbul 2010 all over again

Charlie-Bravo

I'm hoping the Ferrari tussle today really creates an interesting atmosphere for next year.

AMKC

Just seen the highlights and Wow what a race. The race of the season. Great drive by both Max Verstappen and Carlos Seinz. I actually thought at one stage that Red Bull were going to get a 1-2-3 but alas not to be. Gutted that Carlos Seinz got 3rd place and did not get to stand on the Podium. I agree with the poster who say this should not happen and the podiums should be delayed for 10 minutes if there is one under investigation until its sorted

Ferrari just disastrous but it was entirely Vettels fault. He done it on Mark Webber at Istanbul in 2010 and now he has done it to another teammate. Maybe Vettel would be better of taking up rallying. I think there is going to be someone getting a big talking to at Ferrari.

tanko

If Ferrari had any sense they'd tell Vettel where to go, he's well past it at this stage, he'll be even worse next year.

This is it

Missed nearly all of this weekend's racing.

Just had a quick look at LeClerc/Vettel incident. I'd call it a racing incident but Vettel moves in and clips LeClerc, so I'd mark it as Vettels fault.

From Vettels brief interview afterwards he seemed to say that LeClerc was squeezing him, I think LeClerc holds a straight line and Vettel turns across, and way before the corner.

Thoughts?

Disappointing all round for Ferrari.

Oops!

It's fairly obvious what happened from LeClerc's on board.

weekaizer

I’ve always said that I never rated vettel as a racer even during his Red Bull racing days. He very rarely had to fight for a victory. He usually romped to pole and broke DRS in first 2 laps and cruised home. I actually can’t believe how bad he is in wheel to wheel battles. Worst of any driver in f1 that I’ve seen in years.
I’ve warmed to him more as a person lately since he joined Ferrari but he is never going to be the main man at Ferrari with Leclerc wiping the floor with him. Ricciardo done the same in 2014.
Vettel should retire as a 4 time champion. Get Riciardo or sainz in that Ferrari or even give the seat to hulkenberg “as a number 2” for leclerc.

Edit. Vettel is totally at fault for today’s crash. Veered accross leclerc after he passed him almost seemed like he wanted to get back at leclerc for passing him into turn 1.

Jordan 199

Jordan 199

Great result for Alfa Romeo with Kimi fourth and Antonio fifth.

flazio

It's amazing, 2 or 3 years ago McLaren Hondas 2 drivers Jenson Button and Fernando Alonso stood on the podium in Brazil in mock of the McLaren Honda performance.
This weekend both Honda and McLaren took all 3 places on the podium.

EDIT It was 4 years ago

d8491prj5boyvg

Faugheen wrote: »

Fair enough on Hamilton-Albon incident.

Fair play to Hamilton for holding his hands up straight away. Some of his rivals wouldn’t be as quick to do it that’s for sure.

Hear hear. As someone who wouldn't be a Hamilton fan I was impressed with him there, very decent of him.

antodeco

Yeah, I was definitley surprised by that. Now, Id like to know if he would have been as forthcoming if the WDC wasnt already won...

LollipopJimmy

I really like the fact that Lewis has taken full responsibility for the clash with Albon, I find him really hard to like most of the time (go bald gracefully ffs) but that's good sportsmanship.

The Ferrari clash was weird, I would never have expected that amount of damage from a touch so slight

Cork Trucker

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I really like the fact that Lewis has taken full responsibility for the clash with Albon, I find him really hard to like most of the time (go bald gracefully ffs) but that's good sportsmanship.

The Ferrari clash was weird, I would never have expected that amount of damage from a touch so slight

As was pointed out though, would Hamilton have been so honest were the championship still ongoing and close, i suspect not but we'll never know. Yes the Ferrari clash was weird, but at the same time the parts in question were push in a direction they aren't designed to go and at high speed. It was worse than Istanbul from a team point of view though, Webber still made the podium in 2010, on this occasion they came away empty handed.All of these incidents might not be great for the teams and individuals but the spectacle of it all was brilliant.

antodeco

The ferrari suspension failure was really weird. Like there was the slightest of touches and complete catastrophe. It actually looked like it was a mechanical failure waiting to happen!

This is it

Watching highlights now.

The battle between LeClerc, Ricardo and Norris for lap one into two was brilliant. Great driving from them all and fantastic to watch.

rock22

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I really like the fact that Lewis has taken full responsibility for the clash with Albon, I find him really hard to like most of the time (go bald gracefully ffs) but that's good sportsmanship.

The Ferrari clash was weird, I would never have expected that amount of damage from a touch so slight

It eould have been nice if he took that decision before the podium - then Sainz would have had the presentation

Rossi IRL

rock22 wrote: »

It eould have been nice if he took that decision before the podium - then Sainz would have had the presentation

Wasn't his decision to make, also Sainz and a few others were also under investigation. No garentees Sainz was even going to get on the podium.

H3llR4iser

weekaizer wrote: »

I’ve always said that I never rated vettel as a racer even during his Red Bull racing days. He very rarely had to fight for a victory. He usually romped to pole and broke DRS in first 2 laps and cruised home. I actually can’t believe how bad he is in wheel to wheel battles. Worst of any driver in f1 that I’ve seen in years.
I’ve warmed to him more as a person lately since he joined Ferrari but he is never going to be the main man at Ferrari with Leclerc wiping the floor with him. Ricciardo done the same in 2014.
Vettel should retire as a 4 time champion. Get Riciardo or sainz in that Ferrari or even give the seat to hulkenberg “as a number 2” for leclerc.

Edit. Vettel is totally at fault for today’s crash. Veered accross leclerc after he passed him almost seemed like he wanted to get back at leclerc for passing him into turn 1.

As likeable as Hilkenberg is, he's no top team material; Sainz and Ricciardo, absolutely yes in terms of speed and "grit", but what makes anyone think the whole situation would be any better? Ricciardo worked wonders with Verstappen in terms of team harmony


Ferrari's LAST issue are the drivers - once they produce a car that is competitive consistently, then they can think about addressing the drivers. From what we're seeing, Red Bull is closer to produce a proper title winning car than Ferrari are. Ah, making cars that don't disassemble themselves at the slightest touch would help a lot too.



Put it however you want, Seb has been the faster Ferrari driver recently - and in Interlagos Leclerc had a brand new engine. There's little to nothing to pick between the two, and considering Charles' junior career, you'd expect that. It might be unfair to say as you want, but had he not come in and matched Vettel, he'd have been a disappointment. The "sinusoidal wave" of silly opinions swinging between "Vettel is finished" and "Vettel is back!" is the stuff of comedy at this point.


The incident is a racing one, as rightly decided by the stewards as well - yes, Vettel moved towards Leclerc and yes, strictly speaking, if one has to point "blame" it'd be on Seb. However anyone with an even passing understanding of racing will know that "pinch" maneuver is a fairly standard one in that situation - you try to get your opponent to brake on the dirtiest part of the track, especially when they're on fresher tires. Like the "Ricciardo lunge" it's something that counts on a bit of "collaboration" on the part of the other guy/gal (ask Kvyat, ironically).



Problem is, rightly or wrongly some of the younger lads (Leclerc and Verstappen mostly) simply aren't up to lifting off or being moved to the side of the track, nor "roll over and die" like just every single driver on the grid used to do when it was Schumacher pulling these tricks. We'll see more and more of these contacts in the future - which, shall we say it, shouldn't result in a suspension shooting components everywhere, it's a light rub FFS.

Anjobe

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Problem is, rightly or wrongly some of the younger lads (Leclerc and Verstappen mostly) simply aren't up to lifting off or being moved to the side of the track...

Maybe, but that is not what happened yesterday. Vettel just misjudged it and moved across Leclerc too early - as another poster said above Vettel was probably trying to make a point to Leclerc about passing him earlier.

Vettel has certainly improved in the 2nd half of the season, and has probably edged Leclerc in that time, but yesterday just shows he is still making silly avoidable errors that are really unacceptable for a driver of his experience.

LollipopJimmy

Cork Trucker wrote: »

As was pointed out though, would Hamilton have been so honest were the championship still ongoing and close, i suspect not but we'll never know. Yes the Ferrari clash was weird, but at the same time the parts in question were push in a direction they aren't designed to go and at high speed. It was worse than Istanbul from a team point of view though, Webber still made the podium in 2010, on this occasion they came away empty handed.All of these incidents might not be great for the teams and individuals but the spectacle of it all was brilliant.

Exactly, you don't know, he showed contrition and humility yesterday and I gave him credit.

rock22 wrote: »

It eould have been nice if he took that decision before the podium - then Sainz would have had the presentation

Not his decision to make and he made an apology before the podium

quokula

Vettel really can't catch a break. He was comfortably the strongest Ferrari driver all weekend, as he has been more often than not. He had a guaranteed podium, maybe even the possible outside chance of chasing down the front two as they had older tyres, while Leclerc was half a lap behind him.

Then when Bottas pulls off the track at an escape road well out of the firing line there is an inexplicable safety car, Ferrari inexplicably give Leclerc fresh tyres and not Vettel, Leclerc gets his huge deficit wiped out, a free set of tyres, and then with a few laps left while any sensible team would have told him not to attack given the circumstances and to allow Vettel to focus on Albon, instead Leclerc is allowed to throw it up the inside. Despite older tyres Vettel manages to get the traction to have a run back at him and slips past on the straight. Vettel starts to move back to the racing line, as he has a right to do once he's ahead. There is the slightest, tiniest contact and the Ferrari wheel rims which appear to be made out of paper explode.

Another frustrating race where terrible team decisions and / or reliability have really let him down after he'd been driving a great race.

This is it

quokula wrote: »

Vettel really can't catch a break. He was comfortably the strongest Ferrari driver all weekend, as he has been more often than not. He had a guaranteed podium, maybe even the possible outside chance of chasing down the front two as they had older tyres, while Leclerc was half a lap behind him.

Then when Bottas pulls off the track at an escape road well out of the firing line there is an inexplicable safety car, Ferrari inexplicably give Leclerc fresh tyres and not Vettel, Leclerc gets his huge deficit wiped out, a free set of tyres, and then with a few laps left while any sensible team would have told him not to attack given the circumstances and to allow Vettel to focus on Albon, instead Leclerc is allowed to throw it up the inside. Despite older tyres Vettel manages to get the traction to have a run back at him and slips past on the straight. Vettel starts to move back to the racing line, as he has a right to do once he's ahead. There is the slightest, tiniest contact and the Ferrari wheel rims which appear to be made out of paper explode.

Another frustrating race where terrible team decisions and / or reliability have really let him down after he'd been driving a great race.

All well and good moving back to the racing line but not if there's a car there. LeClerc doesn't move at all, Vettel turns into him.

In any case, Vettel doesn't move to the racing line, he's already on it. The only reason he would have to turn in would be at the corner but they were way too far out for that.

This can't be seen as anything other than stupid from Vettel in my opinion.

Joeface

I watched it a few time , it's a small movement really from Vettel and a bit early from him ..but small move . It is a racing incident . Every driver kinda does it .. usually when past fully.

If it was as aggressive as Charles L on Sainz and contact made then that would be a different story.

Really hard luck on Albon but great for Gasly . And Honda really did get engine right for the weekend end. All looks better for the final season of these rules .

Inviere

Cork Trucker wrote: »

As was pointed out though, would Hamilton have been so honest were the championship still ongoing and close, i suspect not but we'll never know.

I think it's a 'pointless-point' to make really, the guy is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. He held his hand up straight away, accepted responsibility, and showed good sportsmanship...what he might/might not have done is irrelevant, he did what he did. Fighting for an F1 championship brings a totally different kind of heat than most on the grid will have felt, of course he's going to be more relaxed now that it's wound up - who wouldn't be?

You could similarly argue he wouldn't have gone for the gap, if important points were at stake - something he's been very careful to avoid lately, and something he's been relentless at all season, hoovering up points where possible, and protecting his points at all costs.

rock22 wrote: »

It eould have been nice if he took that decision before the podium - then Sainz would have had the presentation

He did though The stewarts decided to investigate the incident after the race etc, which is why Sainz didn't get to stand on the podium (unfortunately). I felt it was a slam dunk mistake on the part of Lewis, and should have been put to the top of the stewart priorities, in order to have the podium as it should have been.

pjohnson

This is probably one of my favourite photos of the year.

flazio

Not sure which stop it was but it's a new Formula 1 record.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1196443196265504768?s=19

skipper_G

Credit to the Red Bull pit crew, sub 2 seconds is unbelievable. They're the standout team this season with the 5 fastest stops overall.

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

Credit to the Red Bull pit crew, sub 2 seconds is unbelievable. They're the standout team this season with the 5 fastest stops overall.

I thought Williams had 6 or 7?

Pit Stops was literally the only thing that garage could do properly :pac:

Cork Trucker

A new F1 record for the youngest ever podium has officially been set beating Monza 2008

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.new-record-brazil-2019-trumps-monza-2008-for-f1s-youngest-ever-podium.6Bbm0IFyMCwTth6fsaB2OF.html

skipper_G

pjohnson wrote: »

I thought Williams had 6 or 7?

Pit Stops was literally the only thing that garage could do properly :pac:

Red Bull have the 5 fastest, then Williams have from number 6 to 9 and Red Bull complete the top 10

AMKC

flazio wrote: »

Not sure which stop it was but it's a new Formula 1 record.
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1196443196265504768?s=19

Wow that is some pit stop all right and I thought there other stop at 1.96 was excellent this one is something else. I do not think it has ever been done that quick before and this is with the wider tyres that came in from 2017. Something else. Well done Red Bull.

Inquitus

Joeface wrote: »

And Honda really did get engine right for the weekend end. All looks better for the final season of these rules .

It is worth noting that Honda's best 2 performances were at altitude, ou'd have to wonder how much that artificially levelled the playing field. Yas Maria is at sea level so we should get an idea of what kind of factor that is or isn't after the next race.

Interlagos - 700m asl
Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez -2,240m asl

johnnysmack

Inquitus wrote: »

It is worth noting that Honda's best 2 performances were at altitude, ou'd have to wonder how much that artificially levelled the playing field. Yas Maria is at sea level so we should get an idea of what kind of factor that is or isn't after the next race.

Interlagos - 700m asl
Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez -2,240m asl

Austria was also up in the mountains where they won and Mercedes struggled.

the culture of deference

skipper_G wrote: »

I really don't understand why they needed a full safety car for that. He was stopped at a gap in the fence FFS

Formula 1 race director Michael Masi says


"Bottas pulled off with an engine failure and in response to a message from his engineer coasted to a gap in the barrier where he thought his car could easily be pulled out of harm’s way.
Onboard TV footage showed that after vacating the cockpit he struggled to re-fit the steering wheel, before leaving it in the car and climbing over the barrier.
Two marshals subsequently picked it up and eventually managed to re-fit it, and then appeared to be trying to put the car in neutral. However, as they couldn’t move the car, a crane was required.
Since Jules Bianchi’s crash at Suzuka any deployment of a crane obliges race control to deploy a full safety car, in order to properly slow the field – even when the car is on the inside of a corner and the crane only briefly appears outside the protection of the barriers, as was the case on this occasion."

Faugheen wrote: »

Albon left the door wide open. Don’t think he can have too many complaints.

Wide open. Very harsh on Lewis, gutted for Albon. Racing incident.

This is it wrote: »

From Vettels brief interview afterwards he seemed to say that LeClerc was squeezing him, I think LeClerc holds a straight line and Vettel turns across, and way before the corner.

Thoughts?

Disappointing all round for Ferrari.

Vettel got squeezed by Le Clerc ...., Seb really needs to look at the video. Ferrari need to sort themselves out.


The have thrown this years championship away, and they should have won last years and maybe 2017.

flazio

I think the race director should have taken track conditions into consideration in that case.
Had the track been wet then absolutely call out the safety car, but in dry conditions like that Virtual Safety car should have been sufficient.

antodeco

Im happy for safety cars to be used, as in a lot of races, the gaps at the front are massive. It puts all the drivers back into contention again, just like we saw at Brazil

the culture of deference

They need a new way to deal with lapped cars.


Simplest solution would be to instruct the lapped cars to drop to the back of the chain of cars. Why are the allowed to unlap themselves?

Inviere

the culture of deference wrote: »

They need a new way to deal with lapped cars.


Simplest solution would be to instruct the lapped cars to drop to the back of the chain of cars. Why are the allowed to unlap themselves?

I asked this before, but basically if they're allowed to fall to the back instead of unlapping themselves, competitors would see it as such cars not doing a full/same race distance as they have. It drives me mad to see wasted lap after wasted lap just to get cars at the back, back to being at the back. They really need a new way to do it, because as much as I enjoy the spice a safety car brings, I almost groan knowing it'll be 5/6/7/8 laps completely wasted too.

This is it

I don't understand the grievance. If a car is lapped you don't want them trying to unlap themselves? Or am I misunderstanding?

PopePalpatine

Inviere wrote: »

I asked this before, but basically if they're allowed to fall to the back instead of unlapping themselves, competitors would see it as such cars not doing a full/same race distance as they have. It drives me mad to see wasted lap after wasted lap just to get cars at the back, back to being at the back. They really need a new way to do it, because as much as I enjoy the spice a safety car brings, I almost groan knowing it'll be 5/6/7/8 laps completely wasted too.

Agreed, and don't get me started on how Sky fill the dead air.

AMKC

This is it wrote: »

I don't understand the grievance. If a car is lapped you don't want them trying to unlap themselves? Or am I misunderstanding?

I think its more the laps wasted while the cars at the back are unlapping themselves that is what he is annoyed about. I do not think he has any problem with it just wished it could be done in a better and more efficient way.

the culture of deference

The Bottas incident was dealt with in 2 laps by marshalls.


The crane was inside the barrier.


Safety car should have been brought in as soon as car was off the track.




Also teams should be instructed to box (or drive off track) their cars when they are obviously going to detonate an engine.

Inviere

While we're on the subject, no pitting under a safety car (obviously unless it's a damage issue). Too many 'free' pitstops for my liking at the moment, and it's being factored heavily into race strategies now too where there's a high chance of safety car.

H3llR4iser

the culture of deference wrote: »

They need a new way to deal with lapped cars.


Simplest solution would be to instruct the lapped cars to drop to the back of the chain of cars. Why are the allowed to unlap themselves?

Inviere wrote: »

I asked this before, but basically if they're allowed to fall to the back instead of unlapping themselves, competitors would see it as such cars not doing a full/same race distance as they have. It drives me mad to see wasted lap after wasted lap just to get cars at the back, back to being at the back. They really need a new way to do it, because as much as I enjoy the spice a safety car brings, I almost groan knowing it'll be 5/6/7/8 laps completely wasted too.

Nothing to do with the race distance, if they were allowed to drop at the back they'd still be a lap behind. The issue is with this solution being absurdly unfair on a driver that was just lapped before the safety car - they'd lose a full lap on the driver ahead.

Let's say, Hamilton is leading the race, he laps Russell who was 2 seconds behind Stroll. Safety car deployed, waits for the leader - Hamilton, letting Stroll go in the process. Russell, following Hamilton, has to drop back to the end of the field while Stroll, who wasn't lapped yet, completes the lap and joins the back of the field...right behind Russell, which at that point would need to drop behind him as he's about to be lapped. Result, Russell just lost a lap on Stroll through no fault of his own. This kind of scenario would be happening absolutely every time the SC gets deployed anytime after the 20th lap in a race.

Like it or not, the current system is the one that makes the most sense; The though act to balance is one between safety and a speedy process - they could allow the lapped cars to go immediately, they wouldn't take more than 1-2 laps to rejoin at the back, but then it'd question the whole "Safety" in "safety car".

Inviere

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Nothing to do with the race distance, if they were allowed to drop at the back they'd still be a lap behind. The issue is with this solution being absurdly unfair on a driver that was just lapped before the safety car - they'd lose a full lap on the driver ahead.

Let's say, Hamilton is leading the race, he laps Russell who was 2 seconds behind Stroll. Safety car deployed, waits for the leader - Hamilton, letting Stroll go in the process. Russell, following Hamilton, has to drop back to the end of the field while Stroll, who wasn't lapped yet, completes the lap and joins the back of the field...right behind Russell, which at that point would need to drop behind him as he's about to be lapped. Result, Russell just lost a lap on Stroll through no fault of his own. This kind of scenario would be happening absolutely every time the SC gets deployed anytime after the 20th lap in a race.

Like it or not, the current system is the one that makes the most sense; The though act to balance is one between safety and a speedy process - they could allow the lapped cars to go immediately, they wouldn't take more than 1-2 laps to rejoin at the back, but then it'd question the whole "Safety" in "safety car".

But could common sense not prevail and the lap counts be adjusted, so that they fall to the back, in the positions they're supposed to be, and just bring them forward a lap so that they're all then on the same lap as the leader?

H3llR4iser

Inviere wrote: »

But could common sense not prevail and the lap counts be adjusted, so that they fall to the back, in the positions they're supposed to be, and just bring them forward a lap so that they're all then on the same lap as the leader?

That would be a ridiculously contrived solution to a problem that doesn't exist and would indeed bring in the distance issue - in the case above, it'd turn it completely on its head and become an issue for Stroll.

What needs to be remembered is that F1 is still a competition before it is a show and as much as some people like to think it, the rulemakers of F1 aren't blithering idiots.

One possible "solution" would be to allow the lapped cars to unlap immediately upon deployment of the SC; It's a grey area really, because technically speaking, the guy that was about to be lapped doesn't have specific restrictions except the delta to stick to. It could be applied to lapped cars as well.

Then again, it's a non-issue - as soon as the lapped cars are released, they don't need more than a couple of laps to catch back with the queue.

d8491prj5boyvg

Inviere wrote: »

While we're on the subject, no pitting under a safety car (obviously unless it's a damage issue). Too many 'free' pitstops for my liking at the moment, and it's being factored heavily into race strategies now too where there's a high chance of safety car.

Yep, need to get rid of it. Takes away from all out racing and turns it into an exercise in tyre management

d8491prj5boyvg

Inviere wrote: »

But could common sense not prevail and the lap counts be adjusted, so that they fall to the back, in the positions they're supposed to be, and just bring them forward a lap so that they're all then on the same lap as the leader?

s the fuel difference that I'd see as the injustice.

Inviere

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That would be a ridiculously contrived solution to a problem that doesn't exist and would indeed bring in the distance issue

What about forcing lapped cars to detour through the pits at a delta that means they filter out at the back, as a way of 'clearing the pack' so to speak? I'm not sure what you mean by a problem that doesn't exist, you only need to count the amount of racing laps lost while waiting for lapped cars to unlap themselves. Granted it wouldn't resolve the below issue... They'd potentially be saving a chunk of fuel with this happening

Mara Gorgeous Tenseness wrote: »

s the fuel difference that I'd see as the injustice.