Trump/Russia Collusion Insanity

Jesus effing Christ

sameoldname wrote: »

I'm ok with it because 9 people and counting ended up in jail due to that "witch hunt".

Surely, as a person seeking the truth you must be delighted that all of that came to light?

If the media did its actual job and spent a small fraction of the time spent on this story to making the connections between campaign donations and political decisions the US and the planet would be in a far better place. Do they even do any investigative reporting anymore or is it graphics and countdowns.
The country going to **** and if it isn't "trump is a bad man". Who knew ??? it's some edjet standing out in the rain during a storm.

sameoldname

Jesus effing Christ wrote: »

If the media did its actual job and spent a small fraction of the time spent on this story to making the connections between campaign donations and political decisions the US and the planet would be in a far better place. Do they even do any investigative reporting anymore or is it graphics and countdowns.

The media and plenty of politicians themselves have expended plenty of energy discussing the Citizens United ruling. Bernie Sanders had it as a central topic of his presidential bid. Money in politics is a constant point of debate. I shouldn't even use the term debate, it's just viewed as a fact of life that a lot of politicians are slaves to their donors.

wildeside

rossie1977 wrote: »

And yet the Republican led Senate committee came to the conclusion the Russians interfered in 2016 to benefit Trump https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/senate-report-says-russian-election-interference-invariably-supported-trump-recommends-national-psa/

It wasn't Hillary Clinton or even a Democrat that started the original investigation, it was a Republican Rod Rosenstein, Trump's own hand-picked DA. The lead investigator was a lifelong Republican who publicly admitted he didn't even talk to Trump let alone question him and still admitted Trump was guilty and he hadn't authority to charge him.

Can you point me to the bit in the report where it proves collusion between Trump and Russia?

Donald Trump

Fake news

wildeside

sameoldname wrote: »

No, I'm pointing out that the guy comes on here who claims to "seek the truth" but asks no questions. Then proceeds to soapbox on about the media spinning lies while he himself uses terms that imply that something happened which never actually happened. He also tries to conflate media and political spin in the case of Trump with government propaganda used to justify the war in Iraq.

I find it pitiful that people would believe any of that to be honest discourse.

I essentially made two claims 1) Trump did not collude with Russia to win the election 2) The media went on a witch hunt pretending that he did in so doing failed the American public miserably (like they did with WMD in Iraq)

I provided links to (reasonable) evidence supporting these claims. I have yet to see anyone post evidence to counter these claims.

All that's been proven so far is 1) Russia had an interest/preference for who they wanted to see in office 2) They tried to influence the result.

Neither of these two facts should be news to anyone. This has been the case for as long back as anyone cares to look.

Yet somehow people make a mental leap from these latter two facts to "Russia won the election for Trump" or at least managed to swing it in his favour. A dubious claim that cannot be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

And all you have done is engage in pseudo-intellectual pedantry rather than proper debate on the issues I have highlighted which I can only interpret as a sign of intellectual cowardice.

paleoperson

Even if the Russian's did manage to swing the election in Trump's favour - so what? How many millions did Clintons accept from foreigners to fund their campaign and advertisements, and they're complaining about literally $100k in Facebook ads from Russia?

It was a drop in the ocean. If a drop in the ocean is enough to swing an election then they may as well let the rest of the world have the final say, it was a statemate situation. They do have to put up with the US's bs after all. Russia is the one Hillary threatened with thermonuclear war. The US constantly interferes in other countries democracies all the time.

Members of the UK Parliament threatened the people of the US that if they voted Trump in, they would refuse to deal with him and there was even talk of banning him from the country. That's an open threat.

It all just seems like such sour grapes. They lost the election. They LOST. Get over it and move on because this dwelling on it is helping noone and just damaging the party.

wildeside

paleoperson wrote: »

Even if the Russian's did manage to swing the election in Trump's favour - so what? How many millions did Clintons accept from foreigners to fund their campaign and advertisements, and they're complaining about literally $100k in Facebook ads from Russia?

It was a drop in the ocean. If a drop in the ocean is enough to swing an election then they may as well let the rest of the world have the final say, it was a statemate situation. They do have to put up with the US's bs after all. Russia is the one Hillary threatened with thermonuclear war. The US constantly interferes in other countries democracies all the time.

Members of the UK Parliament threatened the people of the US that if they voted Trump in, they would refuse to deal with him and there was even talk of banning him from the country. That's an open threat.

It all just seems like such sour grapes. They lost the election. They LOST. Get over it and move on because this dwelling on it is helping noone and just damaging the party.

Yeah when people suffer from Trump-Derangment-Syndrome it's hard to see Killary for the war-mongering psychopath that she is. Instead of seeing the reality for what it really is i.e. both Rep and Dems are as reprehensible as each other (for the most part).

There are exceptions like Tulsi Gabbard for the Dems. But guess what? SHE'S A RUSSIAN PUPPET! Yeah, seriously, Killary says so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6juT2B5xtc

You gotta laugh at how mentally unhinged she is.

SaintLeibowitz

I was under the impression Trump derangement syndrome was allocated to Trump fans.

sameoldname

wildeside wrote: »

And all you have done is engage in pseudo-intellectual pedantry rather than proper debate on the issues I have highlighted which I can only interpret as a sign of intellectual cowardice.

Once again, you are using words incorrectly. Read your OP again and tell me what part of it reads like a debate? It's written as a statement, as if it's a matter of fact. You weren't looking for a debate, you were looking to soapbox. That's why I said it was pointless to even engage with you, intellectual cowardice aside.

wildeside

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

I was under the impression Trump derangement syndrome was allocated to Trump fans.

I'm not a Trump fan or Hillary for that matter. I'm not sure what you mean?

sameoldname

wildeside wrote: »

Killary

You are clearly an intellectual giant.

paleoperson

wildeside wrote: »

Yeah when people suffer from Trump-Derangment-Syndrome it's hard to see Killary for the war-mongering psychopath that she is. Instead of seeing the reality for what it really is i.e. both Rep and Dems are as reprehensible as each other (for the most part).

There are exceptions like Tulsi Gabbard for the Dems. But guess what? SHE'S A RUSSIAN PUPPET! Yeah, seriously, Killary says so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6juT2B5xtc

You gotta laugh at how mentally unhinged she is.

yep she went full on in on that in one humiliating dementia episode, her handlers had to move fast to try to shut her up.

wildeside

sameoldname wrote: »

Once again, you are using words incorrectly. Read your OP again and tell me what part of it reads like a debate? It's written as a statement, as if it's a matter of fact. You weren't looking for a debate, you were looking to soapbox. That's why I said it was pointless to even engage with you, intellectual cowardice aside.

Nobody is stopping you from countering my argument/claims ie debate them. Jesus!

sameoldname

wildeside wrote: »

Nobody is stopping you from countering my argument/claims ie debate them. Jesus!

What's the point?

You use blanket statements like "The media has charged Trump with colluding with the Russian government" But plenty of media never made that claim, Fox News, Breitbart etc. You talk like the media is one monolithic organisation but anyone with half a brain knows that's another lie told by those who want to muddy the distinction between fact and opinion. And you accuse me of being pseudo-intellectual?
The same with your claims about WMD's in Iraq, plenty of media outlets at the time claimed that the intelligence was shaky. I remember, it wasn't that long ago.
You use stupid names like "Killary" which is straight out of a tabloid.

I've already pointed out the numerous examples of you spinning words to imply untruths. So how much more misleading nonsense do I have to clear up from you?

SaintLeibowitz

wildeside wrote: »

I'm not a Trump fan or Hillary for that matter. I'm not sure what you mean?

Your not very convincing. Your just a cliché at this stage. I'm gonna stick you in the 'TDS' box and if you show me improvement I'll take you out.

Stop moaning ffs

The U.K. investigation into Russian interference is about to be released. Leaked or otherwise.

Last night your precious Donald took a mystery emergency trip to a hospital that he tried to spin and the white house failed to bury.

He’s about to suffer the best most fantastic case of dementia. Ever. So tremendous. So Great.

And thus avoid investigation as his ability such as it is, is compromised.

Stop fooling yourself he’s a scumbag and his time is up.

wildeside

sameoldname wrote: »

What's the point?

You use blanket statements like "The media has charged Trump with colluding with the Russian government" But plenty of media never made that claim, Fox News, Breitbart etc. You talk like the media is one monolithic organisation but anyone with half a brain knows that's another lie told by those who want to muddy the distinction between fact and opinion. And you accuse me of being pseudo-intellectual?
The same with your claims about WMD's in Iraq, plenty of media outlets at the time claimed that the intelligence was shaky. I remember, it wasn't that long ago.
You use stupid names like "Killary" which is straight out of a tabloid.

I've already pointed out the numerous examples of you spinning words to imply untruths. So how much more misleading nonsense do I have to clear up from you?

Ok, you just used a blanket statement "plenty of media" and then cited only two examples. One of which was Breitbart. Seriously? You call that mainstream? Guess we have different definitions of "mainstream" too. You're big on pedantry so I guess we'll have to get really particular about definitions.

Your definition of "plenty" seems to be more "the exception rather than the rule" with respect to "Russia-gate" and "Iraqi WMD".

I guess you would also say there was "plenty" of news outlets screaming about the pending financial crash in 2008?

I have been talking about the general narrative in this whole Russia-gate debacle from the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, MSNBC, The Guardian to name but a few. Fox News is hardly a shining beacons of truth on any issue (although so f'ed up in this world we currently live in Tucker Carlson actually sounds very reasonable on Russia-gate) but I will grant you it's one MSM source pushing against the narrative.

If I claimed the MSM said Trump hadn't a snowball's chance in hell of winning the 2016 election a few years ago would you agree that was the general narrative?

Or would you say "plenty" of news outlets said he had a fair shot at winning?

wildeside

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

Your not very convincing. Your just a cliché at this stage. I'm gonna stick you in the 'TDS' box and if you show me improvement I'll take you out.

You don't know the difference between the words "you're" and "your". I'm gonna stick you in the "not the sharpest tool in the box" box and if you show me improvement I'll take you out.

SaintLeibowitz

wildeside wrote: »

You don't know the difference between the words "you're" and "your". I'm gonna stick you in the "not the sharpest tool in the box" box and if you show me improvement I'll take you out.

That's fantastic. Your still in the TDS box.

wildeside

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

The U.K. investigation into Russian interference is about to be released. Leaked or otherwise.

Last night your precious Donald took a mystery emergency trip to a hospital that he tried to spin and the white house failed to bury.

He’s about to suffer the best most fantastic case of dementia. Ever. So tremendous. So Great.

And thus avoid investigation as his ability such as it is, is compromised.

Stop fooling yourself he’s a scumbag and his time is up.

I don't support/like Donald Trump! Haven't you read anything I've posted? He's the worst thing to happen to American policitics since George Bush!

I hate Trump more than Hillary and the Clintons ... and that's a lot!

For the record I wanted Bernie to win. Then he sold out to the DNC and got behind Hillary. He betrayed so many people. Have a look at Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 for a good summary of what went on. Truly disgusting.

I'm rooting for Tulsi Gabbard for 2020. A fine, decent human being as far as I can tell.

So take off your "orange man bad" tinted glasses, wake up and try actually debate the issue, if you can.

wildeside

SaintLeibowitz wrote: »

That's fantastic. Your still in the TDS box.

And you just used the word "your" incorrectly again so YOU'RE staying in YOUR box too.

SaintLeibowitz

wildeside wrote: »

And you just used the word "your" incorrectly again so YOU'RE staying in YOUR box too.

That's fantastic. Your still in the TDS box. Boring and unoriginal.

Overheal

wildeside wrote: »

I'm not a Trump fan or Hillary for that matter. I'm not sure what you mean?

Homer: You don't think much of me, do you, boy?
Bart: No, sir.

Stop moaning ffs

wildeside wrote: »

I don't support/like Donald Trump! Haven't you read anything I've posted? He's the worst thing to happen to American policitics since George Bush!

I hate Trump more than Hillary and the Clintons ... and that's a lot!

For the record I wanted Bernie to win. Then he sold out to the DNC and got behind Hillary. He betrayed so many people. Have a look at Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 for a good summary of what went on. Truly disgusting.

I'm rooting for Tulsi Gabbard for 2020. A fine, decent human being as far as I can tell.

So take off your "orange man bad" tinted glasses, wake up and try actually debate the issue, if you can.

Look at how many people in his circle that helped get him elected are now in prison or on their way. The walls are closing in fast in him. Watch. He’ll slip out from under being brought to account by a (rather convenient) dementia diagnosis or similar.

wildeside

wildeside wrote: »

This whole Trump/Russia collusion story is and always has been not just a distraction but also a massive lie. A lie on the scale of "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" kind of lie.

Summary of the major findings of the Mueller report:

1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.

the part in bold alone would be enough to topple any previous holder of the office of POTUS.

ohnonotgmail

Deleted User wrote: »

Summary of the major findings of the Mueller report:

1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.

the part in bold alone would be enough to topple any previous holder of the office of POTUS.

yes, yes, but her emails.

Stop moaning ffs

He was also giving Putin an entire floor in trump tower Moscow.

notobtuse

Stick a fork in it... the Trump/Russia collusion hoax is done!

Now we need answers regarding FISA abuses and the miscreants involved in... first, destroying a political opponents campaign by improper use of government agencies; and second, the undertaking of a coup to oust President Trump.

ohnonotgmail

notobtuse wrote: »

Stick a fork in it... the Trump/Russia collusion hoax is done!

Now we need answers regarding FISA abuses and the miscreants involved in... first, destroying a political opponents campaign by improper use of government agencies; and second, the undertaking of a coup to oust President Trump.

funny, i thought the impeachment hearing was still very much ongoing.

notobtuse

notobtuse wrote: »

the Trump/Russia collusion hoax is done!

Are you implying that there was no collusion between the Trump campaign and senior Kremlin persons despite, you know, the overwhelming evidence to the contrary? I mean, Trump Jr. himself tweeted about the fact that they were approached by the Russians. Is he lying? Why?

notobtuse wrote: »

......destroying a political opponents campaign by improper use of government agencies.......

Ironically, this is the thrust of the current impeachment inquiry/hearing.