Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

Benicetomonty

joebloggs32 wrote: »

What is the current position of the Asti on pay equality?
TUI have given notice for industrial action in February. INTO have signalled that they will take action if it's not resolved by summer.
ASTI are sticking it to the man by not doing SLARs

Supposedly a February strike and the TUI havent even confirmed a date. We wont hold our breath

The reference to the INTO doesnt warrant a response.

joebloggs32

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Supposedly a February strike and the TUI havent even confirmed a date. We wont hold our breath

The reference to the INTO doesnt warrant a response.

As there may be an election coming now is the time to bang the drum for maximum leverage

acequion

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Safe to say whatever happens, the TUI needn't expect an iota of support or sympathy from the ASTI unless it's for a common goal. Their poaching of ASTI members during the last dispute was probably the most blatant affront to the spirit of trade unionism we've witnessed in I dont know how long.

Here, here! Most sensible and factually correct comment made all evening.

TUI really have a nerve making snide remarks at ASTI when ASTI were the only ones with the balls to make an actual stand, during which time their members were blatantly poached.

The dogs in the street could see that the modus operandi of senior TUI officials is indeed scaremongering. Has another poster not posted this evening how fire and brimstone was threatened on all who didn't accept whatever horseshyte was being forced upon teachers!! And it worked as TUI members constantly scampered for cover.

But so did many in ASTI. And if one thing is blatantly obvious, it's that too many rolled over and let them trample the daylights out of our profession, our pay and our conditions, so that the job is now a pale shadow of what it once was.

The giving in is what screwed us all. I haven't the slightest doubt about that and with a bare three years left I can hold my head high with the pride that I fought and am relieved to soon be jumping off a sinking ship. And for all that, when I go into my classroom, close my door on all the shyte being dreamed up in the upper echelons of education, I still enjoy teaching my classes.

History Queen

To be fair, (and I don't for a second condone unions reneging on agreements and hate that TUI accepted members of another union durong a dispute), but it's not that the TUI actively went out looking for ASTI members. They ran to the TUI. They turned their back on their union. They actively and purposely spught membership with the TUI. Pretending that ASTI members were somehow "poached " is suggesting they were actively targeted by the TUI. That is simply not true.

acequion

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair, (and I don't for a second condone unions reneging on agreements and hate that TUI accepted members of another union durong a dispute), but it's not that the TUI actively went out looking for ASTI members. They ran to the TUI. They turned their back on their union. They actively and purposely spught membership with the TUI. Pretending that ASTI members were somehow "poached " is suggesting they were actively targeted by the TUI. That is simply not true.

You make a valid point History Queen but that's not the full story. By all accounts TUI have become quite aggressive over the past few years actively recruiting members in the voluntary secondary sector, a traditional ASTI stronghold. Competition might be healthy in the private sector and the unions are private sector, however such blatant competitiveness is very distasteful in a trade union ethos and at a time when the profession has been and still is under sustained attack from many sectors. Unions should be sticking together in solidarity.

Also, TUI openly accepted and in many cases encouraged renegade ASTI members to join up . Perhaps they didn't target them in the strict meaning of the term, but not so far off and there's no doubt that it was utterly reprehensible.

wingnut

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair, (and I don't for a second condone unions reneging on agreements and hate that TUI accepted members of another union durong a dispute), but it's not that the TUI actively went out looking for ASTI members. They ran to the TUI. They turned their back on their union. They actively and purposely spught membership with the TUI. Pretending that ASTI members were somehow "poached " is suggesting they were actively targeted by the TUI. That is simply not true.

We went from majority ASTI to majority TUI during the dispute (a handful of us remained). The motivating factor for sure was the increments. Majority of teachers don't care much for any of it except when it hits their pocket.

I guess the poaching element is the fact the TUI openly accepted all comers in contravention of practice and custom of not facilitating transfers in times of IR unrest.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

You make a valid point History Queen but that's not the full story. By all accounts TUI have become quite aggressive over the past few years actively recruiting members in the voluntary secondary sector, a traditional ASTI stronghold. Competition might be healthy in the private sector and the unions are private sector, however such blatant competitiveness is very distasteful in a trade union ethos and at a time when the profession has been and still is under sustained attack from many sectors. Unions should be sticking together in solidarity.

Also, TUI openly accepted and in many cases encouraged renegade ASTI members to join up . Perhaps they didn't target them in the strict meaning of the term, but not so far off and there's no doubt that it was utterly reprehensible.

Heresay. ASTI members were being led to ruin by a calamitous leadership. Had the level headed union members not acted and called that special conference, where would the ASTI be now? An intervention was needed on the ASTI, they were nuts to do what they did. Brave? Yes. But they had no plan.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Heresay. ASTI members were being led to ruin by a calamitous leadership. Had the level headed union members not acted and called that special conference, where would the ASTI be now? An intervention was needed on the ASTI, they were nuts to do what they did. Brave? Yes. But they had no plan.

And if these "level headed" ASTI members had not got their way in spite of the wishes of a majority of members, where would we all be now I wonder?

ASTI members even more sanctioned by FEMPI and less members? Very possibly. And /or more concessions on the JC, making that "reform" a bit less of a joke and slightly more workable? Very possibly. Plus some other concessions as the Govt could not continue to ignore a majority of very determined second level teachers? Perhaps more give on the NQT issue as had happened with S&S? Very possibly as well. And would it have been worth the pain? I certainly think so as did a majority of my fellow members at convention that year when this "level headed " contingent first launched their coup.

Whatever would have happened, the fact now remains that by being forced to give in teachers in general achieved sweet FA. Ok a few increments, 30 pieces of silver and the 2 year CID which I do understand. But overall did things improve? Go look for yourself!!

Continuing and probably permanent pay inequality despite a booming economy with post 2011s facing derisory pensions. Hugely increased teacher workload with the new JC which is largely considered a failure, don't we all know the popular mnemonic for CBA, couldn't be arssed, is that progress, do you think? Carte blanche for a disaster of a new LC as they know our unions are a walkover [because of the weak members who always give in]. Continuing huge class sizes, a fear ethos in our work places as teachers power and authority totally eroded, halved sick leave to name but a few, plus whatever else you're having in future "agreements".

So whatever may have been the outcome if the ASTI action had continued, the reality is that it could not have been worse than the state of the job today. With the added damage that it proved conclusively that teachers with their two squabbling unions and their infighting within unions and their innate fear of the big boys, are cannon fodder. The softly softly approach of your "level headed" brigade has achieved NOTHING of any worth.

Like I say I really am very relieved to be in my final years of all this codology.

doc_17

Hang on, in the same post you take for the ASTI’s action having made the JC more tolerable and worse at the same time? I think I know what you are trying to say but ultimately if the JC is still a disaster then the action failed.

And the JC issue was all but decided anyway. Nothing really came from the ASTI’s action in that regard? They backed down with no gains. Gov won that dispute.

For any action to have a chance we need the INTO on board.

Treppen

doc_17 wrote: »

Hang on, in the same post you take for the ASTI’s action having made the JC more tolerable and worse at the same time? I think I know what you are trying to say but ultimately if the JC is still a disaster then the action failed.

And the JC issue was all but decided anyway. Nothing really came from the ASTI’s action in that regard? They backed down with no gains. Gov won that dispute.

For any action to have a chance we need the INTO on board.

No gains? If it wasn't for the ASTI and Travers 1&2. Youd be in school correcting your own students junior cert scripts during June/July/August.... For free.
And before someone tells me that the appropriate term is marking... :pac: I actually mean correcting... As in, 'correcting' the grade scores to keep your principal and parents happy.

Back to the topic in hand... Il repeat.
The TUI need to read the agreement they signed up to as they don't understand it.

SLARS during tuition hours.
Not after work.

It's ironic some TUI members here threatening that we'll have to work longer hours if we force the issue... When they are already working longer hours because they won't get some solidarity together.

cupcake queen

km79 wrote: »

Right
So a complete change in contract ?

If this was to be forced on us then I assume we would pull out of every after school meeting ?
A unilateral change in working conditions wolly surely repudiate all agreements ........

I am generally in school all day anyway and getting my evenings back might not be such a bad thing .............

Assuming also it is not jail and lunch time means freedom like in every other job ............

Can't see this ever coming to fruition. Yes they have it in the UK but their whole system is completely different. If we had a standardised day all teachers would need set lunch breaks of at least an hour. Who would supervise the students during that time? (For starters!)

km79

cupcake queen wrote: »

Can't see this ever coming to fruition. Yes they have it in the UK but their whole system is completely different. If we had a standardised day all teachers would need set lunch breaks of at least an hour. Who would supervise the students during that time? (For starters!)

Agreed
That’s what I was getting at
Scaremongering
Empty threats

happywithlife

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair, (and I don't for a second condone unions reneging on agreements and hate that TUI accepted members of another union durong a dispute), but it's not that the TUI actively went out looking for ASTI members. They ran to the TUI. They turned their back on their union. They actively and purposely spught membership with the TUI. Pretending that ASTI members were somehow "poached " is suggesting they were actively targeted by the TUI. That is simply not true.

I was in a dual union school at the time. I'm ASTI. Was told forthright by another senior teacher that managment who previously had been ASTI had in the past cut & run to TUI and I was advised to do similar. I didn't. 2 of us part timers didn't. We also didn't have our contracts renewed. The other TUI part timers did.
It was a very bitter time amongst staff and I'd be loath to be in a dual union school again and hold the view the ONLY winner by having two unions is the government. Divide and conquer.

doc_17

Treppen wrote: »

No gains? If it wasn't for the ASTI and Travers 1&2. Youd be in school correcting your own students junior cert scripts during June/July/August.... For free.
And before someone tells me that the appropriate term is marking... :pac: I actually mean correcting... As in, 'correcting' the grade scores to keep your principal and parents happy.

Back to the topic in hand... Il repeat.
The TUI need to read the agreement they signed up to as they don't understand it.

SLARS during tuition hours.
Not after work.

It's ironic some TUI members here threatening that we'll have to work longer hours if we force the issue... When they are already working longer hours because they won't get some solidarity together.

The first part of that post is just plain wrong. The most recent ASTI action achieved nothing. Zero. Unless you count nearly destroying the ASTI? You can try and rewrite history all you want but it doesn’t wash with anyone who has a brain and a memory. The current Circular we are all operating under was agreed by TUI and ASTI. It stems from the joint agreement from July 2015. TUI were integral to that as were the ASTI. ASTI may not have accepted it but the negotiations were done by TUI and ASTI.

Treppen

doc_17 wrote: »

The first part of that post is just plain wrong. The most recent ASTI action achieved nothing. Zero. Unless you count nearly destroying the ASTI? You can try and rewrite history all you want but it doesn’t wash with anyone who has a brain and a memory. The current Circular we are all operating under was agreed by TUI and ASTI. It stems from the joint agreement from July 2015. TUI were integral to that as were the ASTI. ASTI may not have accepted it but the negotiations were done by TUI and ASTI.

Where in this agreement you speak of does it say SLARS can be scheduled outside of tuition time?

doc_17

Treppen wrote: »

Where in this agreement you speak of does it say SLARS can be scheduled outside of tuition time?

I don’t know, what don’t you tell me? That’s a separate issue. ASTI leadership didn’t have a problem with whatever they thought they were signing off on?

Benicetomonty

doc_17 wrote: »

I don’t know, what don’t you tell me? That’s a separate issue. ASTI leadership didn’t have a problem with whatever they thought they were signing off on?

It doesnt say it. Which is probably part of the reason the leadership of the day did sign off on the revised Travers document. The difference is the TUI have decided to ignore that part of the agreement and punish their own members by allowing SLARs to be scheduled outside of school hours.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

The first part of that post is just plain wrong. The most recent ASTI action achieved nothing. Zero. Unless you count nearly destroying the ASTI? You can try and rewrite history all you want but it doesn’t wash with anyone who has a brain and a memory. The current Circular we are all operating under was agreed by TUI and ASTI. It stems from the joint agreement from July 2015. TUI were integral to that as were the ASTI. ASTI may not have accepted it but the negotiations were done by TUI and ASTI.

Wrong!! Plain wrong, to quote yourself. I have a memory too and what about:

1. Professional time? That came in in 2017, first brought into timetables in the 2017/2018 school year. When was the ASTI action? 2016/2017, brought to an end in June 2017. Now the Govt weren't admitting to feeling the pressure by the militancy of the largest teacher union, but any one would be naive to think that professional time was just a surprise early xmas present that year.

2. Concessions to LPTs? TUI might shout from the rooftops that that was their doing, but again magnanimity would hardly be a feature of the current Govt if they weren't feeling under pressure. And again strikes and continued militancy from ASTI achieved that and not idle threats and posturing from other unions.

Treppen

doc_17 wrote: »

I don’t know, what don’t you tell me? That’s a separate issue. ASTI leadership didn’t have a problem with whatever they thought they were signing off on?

They didn't have a problem with it because they assumed the TUI wouldn't break ranks and ignore it.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Wrong!! Plain wrong, to quote yourself. I have a memory too and what about:

1. Professional time? That came in in 2017, first brought into timetables in the 2017/2018 school year. When was the ASTI action? 2016/2017, brought to an end in June 2017. Now the Govt weren't admitting to feeling the pressure by the militancy of the largest teacher union, but any one would be naive to think that professional time was just a surprise early xmas present that year.

2. Concessions to LPTs? TUI might shout from the rooftops that that was their doing, but again magnanimity would hardly be a feature of the current Govt if they weren't feeling under pressure. And again strikes and continued militancy from ASTI achieved that and not idle threats and posturing from other unions.

There are none so blind as those that don’t want to see.

The document linked below is dated July 2015. Section 9.7 outlines the 40 min professional time. Long before the failed ASTI action.

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Junior_Cycle_Appendix_Professional_Time_14Jul2015_Final.pdf

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

There are none so blind as those that don’t want to see.

The document linked below is dated July 2015. Section 9.7 outlines the 40 min professional time. Long before the failed ASTI action.

https://www.tui.ie/_fileupload/Junior_Cycle_Appendix_Professional_Time_14Jul2015_Final.pdf

Ok I stand corrected on the professional time. Clearly your memory is better than mine on that one.

However I don't appreciate your first remark. In my opinion the blind are the people in your union, the people who have consistently dug their head in the sand leaving us, their sister union to fight the fights on our own.

Whether or not we achieved anything in the last action is open to interpretation. We certainly feel that our militancy pressured the Govt into making concessions to LPTs.

And don't forget the earlier actions.Back in 2013 TUI accepted Haddington Road while ASTI rejected and backed strike action. Shortly after came the concession on S&S, the buying out scheme which, while very limited, did allow a number of teachers to escape, myself included. Would that concession have been offered if we accepted as you guys did? Again open to interpretation, but I doubt it.

Go back further to the bench-marking strikes of 2001. ASTI's work to rule on S&S led to paid S&S for the first time.

In both cases TUI members benefitted along with ASTI, despite doing nothing.

So you might love to lecture us that we were reckless by taking our last action without what you or many would see as a clear plan but I would disagree for reasons well outlined in my earlier posts. And somehow I'd say the days of ASTI militancy are in the past and with TUI and INTO never doing anything, the Govt can and will do whatever they like.

Sir123

acequion wrote: »

And somehow I'd say the days of ASTI militancy are in the past and with TUI and INTO never doing anything, the Govt can and will do whatever they like.

You're so right acequion!

Do nothing TUI and INTO are an embarrassment to the profession. What sort of trade union says they are going to strike in February and not even give a date? No threat to government at all as they cave every time a cent is thrown in their direction.

INTO are even worse. Such disgraceful leadership from both unions.

ASTI always stood up for Teachers' Pay and Conditions. They were the only Teacher Union that looked after us professionals. It's a shame the other two unions won't bite the bullet and do a joint teacher strike as had been promised last year.

We should be more like the French and actually stand up for ourselves. They'd think we were ludacris if they knew what was going on over here with unequal pay still unresolved a near decade later.. Ridicule to say the least!

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Ok I stand corrected on the professional time. Clearly your memory is better than mine on that one.

However I don't appreciate your first remark. In my opinion the blind are the people in your union, the people who have consistently dug their head in the sand leaving us, their sister union to fight the fights on our own.

Whether or not we achieved anything in the last action is open to interpretation. We certainly feel that our militancy pressured the Govt into making concessions to LPTs.

And don't forget the earlier actions.Back in 2013 TUI accepted Haddington Road while ASTI rejected and backed strike action. Shortly after came the concession on S&S, the buying out scheme which, while very limited, did allow a number of teachers to escape, myself included. Would that concession have been offered if we accepted as you guys did? Again open to interpretation, but I doubt it.

Go back further to the bench-marking strikes of 2001. ASTI's work to rule on S&S led to paid S&S for the first time.

In both cases TUI members benefitted along with ASTI, despite doing nothing.

So you might love to lecture us that we were reckless by taking our last action without what you or many would see as a clear plan but I would disagree for reasons well outlined in my earlier posts. And somehow I'd say the days of ASTI militancy are in the past and with TUI and INTO never doing anything, the Govt can and will do whatever they like.

I don’t appreciate the whole tone towards the TUI. Taking credit for things never achieved by your union and slamming TUI in the process. It’s post truth nonsense, trying to match different outcomes with other actions to justify actions.

Treppen

doc_17 wrote: »

I don’t appreciate the whole tone towards the TUI. Taking credit for things never achieved by your union and slamming TUI in the process. It’s post truth nonsense, trying to match different outcomes with other actions to justify actions.

Out of interest, does the TUI have any position on undertaking SLARS outside of the agreed time?

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

I don’t appreciate the whole tone towards the TUI. Taking credit for things never achieved by your union and slamming TUI in the process. It’s post truth nonsense, trying to match different outcomes with other actions to justify actions.

This is going to be my last reply to you on this topic.

Quite frankly you've got one hell of a nerve coming on here criticizing the ASTI! Quite apart from never supporting their AST collegues, what the TUI did in accepting members during a dispute in blatant contempt of trade union rules and principles was utterly scurrilous. As a result there is very bad blood between the two unions which rules out any merger or serious cooperation between them in the foreseeable future. And the big loser there is all second level teachers as one strong union is our only hope. You really should be ashamed of yourself and keeping a low profile rather than baying and sniping at your ASTI collegues and thinking you've a right to be on your high horse!

Secondly, "taking credit for things never achieved by your union." Are you really for real?? Over a decade of fairly paid S&S was achieved as a result of the bench marking strikes and work to rule done by ASTI while TUI warmed their arses in school every day. The S&S buy out concession was a direct result of ASTI rejecting Haddington Road on the first ballot and if you seriously think concessions to LPTs came about as a result of TUI negotiation then you'd want to take off the blinkers.

Granted, gains have been very small over the years and all teachers have lost far more than they've gained. But when two of the three unions are doing Noddy the donkey to whatever the big boys want, what hope have the remaining third?

TUI really would want to drop the attitude!

doc_17

This will be my post as well. YOU were the one making the false claims about getting the 40 mins professional time from the 2016 ASTI action. YOU were the one that wrongly attacked another Union. YOU have some nerve and should be ashamed about that. YOU are the one on the high horse.

Then you bring up all the good things the ASTI did in the noughties, none of which I ever disputed, to somehow attack the TUI again? Go back to the 80s and it the TUI that were the most Militant. But that wasn’t what this was about. You were wrong and you called out on it. Now you’re bringing all this other stuff on.

You can bring as much stuff up as you want but it does not change the fact that the 2016 action by ASTI was disastrous. I never said “fair play to the TUI for taking all those members that left of their own free will because of the disastrous leadership”.

Over and out for me on this thread. I’ll leave you all to attack the FG and Labour Gov for introducing the pay cuts, CP hours, S&S cuts, USC, Two Tier pay and the Pension Levy. Because it seems to be like Trump and his post truth philosophy in here these days.

ethical

This bickering will get teachers nowhere! Yes ,mistakes were made,probably by both sides over the years.Of course it was shameful that the TUI accepted ASTI union changers ,ignoring the rules,and good will ,if there is any left between the BIG TWO. (yes,they were fined for it but it was shameful)

What I would love to know is when are the Unions going to get the funds returned to us that were helping build up our pensions.Remember the time some of us had the choice to opt out of S & S ? We had paid quite a number of years towards pension provision and were told if we leave,this money is dead in the water.Its probably a very small amount in the overall budget of Education but can be a substantial amount to the individual teacher that perhaps want to retire this year instead of in two years time!
A drop in the ocean when you consider the white collar crime that goes on in second level and ETB schools where funds are all the time following the same B*STARDS in the form of funds /"expenses"for sitting on Boards and FCUK the rest of ye!!!

joebloggs32

Sir123 wrote: »

You're so right acequion!

Do nothing TUI and INTO are an embarrassment to the profession. What sort of trade union says they are going to strike in February and not even give a date? No threat to government at all as they cave every time a cent is thrown in their direction.

/quote]

It's normal for unions to signal in advance action for a strike. In 2015 the TUI had also done likewise, it brought the government to the table and the JC was renegotiated and changes implemented as shown by Doc17 above. It's how industrial relations work.
We now find a similar scenario again. At least the TUI have an active mandate to campaign for pay equality in place and now is the opportune time to use it as political parties fight for power. The last thing FG will want is a strike to flare up next month, so maybe they will finally commit to it. (As far as I know it is FF policy to end pay inequality)
If they're not going to play ball then the TUI can push ahead, call the strike and blame the government for their inaction.

Benicetomonty

/quote]

It's normal for unions to signal in advance action for a strike. In 2015 the TUI had also done likewise, it brought the government to the table and the JC was renegotiated and changes implemented as shown by Doc17 above. It's how industrial relations work.
We now find a similar scenario again. At least the TUI have an active mandate to campaign for pay equality in place and now is the opportune time to use it as political parties fight for power. The last thing FG will want is a strike to flare up next month, so maybe they will finally commit to it. (As far as I know it is FF policy to end pay inequality)
If they're not going to play ball then the TUI can push ahead, call the strike and blame the government for their inaction.[/quote]

Id be astonished (and yes, also pleasantly surprised) if the strike day happened before the election. If it's afterwards, nobody will care. Either FG will have another 5 years and wont be under any pressure to change the status quo, or theyl be in opposition and can promise the moon and the stars without having to commit to anything.

I wouldnt trust Fianna Fail to end pay inequality. Has to be about homeless and health for them since theres a very good chance theyl get elected and theyre the main issues theyl have to deal with. Following Thomas Byrne, their education spokesman (and one of my TDs), on Twitter has been uninspiring to say the least.

Teachers do not and will never have leverage based on public support. It will never ever happen. Unified and aggressive industrial action is all we have as far as I see it. Question is how much more are we willing to take?

Benicetomonty

Benicetomonty wrote: »

/quote]

It's normal for unions to signal in advance action for a strike. In 2015 the TUI had also done likewise, it brought the government to the table and the JC was renegotiated and changes implemented as shown by Doc17 above. It's how industrial relations work.
We now find a similar scenario again. At least the TUI have an active mandate to campaign for pay equality in place and now is the opportune time to use it as political parties fight for power. The last thing FG will want is a strike to flare up next month, so maybe they will finally commit to it. (As far as I know it is FF policy to end pay inequality)
If they're not going to play ball then the TUI can push ahead, call the strike and blame the government for their inaction.

Id be astonished (and yes, also pleasantly surprised) if the strike day happened before the election. If it's afterwards, nobody will care. Either FG will have another 5 years and wont be under any pressure to change the status quo, or theyl be in opposition and can promise the moon and the stars without having to commit to anything.

I wouldnt trust Fianna Fail to end pay inequality. Has to be about homeless and health for them since theres a very good chance theyl get elected and theyre the main issues theyl have to deal with. Following Thomas Byrne, their education spokesman (and one of my TDs), on Twitter has been uninspiring to say the least.

Teachers do not and will never have leverage based on public support. It will never ever happen. Unified and aggressive industrial action is all we have as far as I see it. Question is how much more are we willing to take?[/QUOTE]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/thousands-of-teachers-to-strike-on-february-4th-1.4142870

Well, there ya go. Before the election, so goes from totally pointless since the incoming govt won't care to just pointless since there's no current gov't