Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

joebloggs32

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Id be astonished (and yes, also pleasantly surprised) if the strike day happened before the election. If it's afterwards, nobody will care. Either FG will have another 5 years and wont be under any pressure to change the status quo, or theyl be in opposition and can promise the moon and the stars without having to commit to anything.

I wouldnt trust Fianna Fail to end pay inequality. Has to be about homeless and health for them since theres a very good chance theyl get elected and theyre the main issues theyl have to deal with. Following Thomas Byrne, their education spokesman (and one of my TDs), on Twitter has been uninspiring to say the least.

Teachers do not and will never have leverage based on public support. It will never ever happen. Unified and aggressive industrial action is all we have as far as I see it. Question is how much more are we willing to take?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/thousands-of-teachers-to-strike-on-february-4th-1.4142870

Well, there ya go. Before the election, so goes from totally pointless since the incoming govt won't care to just pointless since there's no current gov't [/quote]

What happened to being pleasantly surprised?

Dammed if I do and dammed if I I don't!

Benicetomonty

joebloggs32 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/thousands-of-teachers-to-strike-on-february-4th-1.4142870

Well, there ya go. Before the election, so goes from totally pointless since the incoming govt won't care to just pointless since there's no current gov't

What happened to being pleasantly surprised?

Dammed if I do and dammed if I I don't![/quote]

Never said I wasnt!

Sierra Oscar

I'm not a teacher myself but completely support the campaign for pay inequality.

Quick question regarding the strike. If I remember correctly the Government is claiming it has sorted the pay inequality issue by removing points 4 and 8 on the pay-scales for new entrants. Obviously new entrants are still out of pocket at the start of their careers. Is the strike to try and bring about an immediate change to the pay-scales?

acequion

Delighted to see TUI doing something at long last.

Now if the the other two unions would join them, as we In ASTI have a mandate to, we could really get this thing sorted at last.

Daring to hope!

Millem

Delighted to see the strike. Will happily forfeit a day’s pay to strike. I am not too
sure my colleagues in my staff room (who are on new pay deal) will feel the same.

SligoBrewer

It's almost like money is worth more to people who have less.

coillsaille

Looks like the push back from the Dept has begun..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-face-longer-tuition-hours-under-plan-to-resolve-dispute-1.4182668%3fmode=amp

Treppen

coillsaille wrote: »

Looks like the push back from the Dept has begun..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teachers-face-longer-tuition-hours-under-plan-to-resolve-dispute-1.4182668%3fmode=amp

1. The JMB need to come out of the closet and admit they are either a Union or not. Too many times I've heard principals say ""the JMB have advised us too....".
2. "One option allowed, according to sources, is for Slar meeting to take place exclusively during the normal school day – as demanded by the ASTI –">>> here we can see the IT mask is slipping. They are either incapable of doing by basic research OR a Lord Hawhaw mouthpiece for these mysterious 'sources'. These are not ASTI demands,. ASTI j just want to stick to the agreement.
Supervision allocation is not the remit of any teacher or Union, that's for the school and department to sort out.

Do the SLARS during Mocks or Summer exams, timetable accordingly. That's what we did and there's no hysteria.Case closed.

In any event it's coming up to Easter Union meetings so the usual Sabre rattling and beating of chests with nothing changing.

doc_17

I’d have thought that the last thing the JMB was is a Union.

Icsics

doc_17 wrote: »

I’d have thought that the last thing the JMB was is a Union.

JMB is the Principals de facto Union, providing legal advice & representation

coillsaille

Yes it's pretty much a representative organisation for boards of management and principals. Some would say the JMB were the main facilitators of the dept lock out of ASTI members. As a teacher they're the last crowd I would expect to have the interests of my profession at heart.
The near adulation they receive from many principals makes one really question the practice of principals and DPs remaining members of teachers' unions. My own opinion is once appointed they should no longer be eligible for membership as their interests are no longer aligned with those of classroom teachers.

Treppen

coillsaille wrote: »

Yes it's pretty much a representative organisation for boards of management and principals. Some would say the JMB were the main facilitators of the dept lock out of ASTI members. As a teacher they're the last crowd I would expect to have the interests of my profession at heart.
The near adulation they receive from many principals makes one really question the practice of principals and DPs remaining members of teachers' unions. My own opinion is once appointed they should no longer be eligible for membership as their interests are no longer aligned with those of classroom teachers.

I get the logic for any principal or dp wanting to have the protection of the Union etc.

But taking de facto directives and 'legal advice' from the JMB and being member of another Union just doesn't seem in keeping with the spirit of a Union. We give out about teachers crossing from one Union to another during a dispute. How about teachers being in 2 unions at the same time?

coillsaille

It simply shouldn't be allowed and makes no sense or logic from a trade union point of view to have a cohort of members who will want different resolutions than the bulk of members.

The 7% of ASTI members who voted against SLARS being within school hours is just the latest example of how this situation skews ballot results and weakens our arguements.

Principals and DPs should have their own separate union, just like the sergeants and inspectors do in An Garda.

r93kaey5p2izun

What do ASTI members think of the new staffing circular re SLARS and professional time?

km79

Miracle Ugly Octagon wrote: »

What do ASTI members think of the new staffing circular re SLARS and professional time?

I think at best we will end up as we are
And now May end up worse off

Icsics

SLARS are going to cause even more hassle in schools & looks like the ‘professional time’ carrot is going to become a big stick....like what happened with S&S

Consuelano

There are two things I see could happen here.

1. We allow SLARs to take place outside of school hours. I've done a few at this stage. They do not necessitate two hours (much less in fairness) and there's a degree of autonomy with them. This inside/outside tuition time was never a major issue in my humble opinion.

2. We follow the union's directive (and in fairness what was originally the department's) and have SLARs inside of the school day. The most likely result of this (having read the circular) is that the department pulls the 22 hours professional time. Our only move then is to pull all cooperation with JC planning, CBAs, SLARS, etc. The result of all of this is that we've got a fight on our hands. A real, proper fight.

The problem with the second option is that it's not the fight we should be having with the department. There are many things we should be pushing back against - lesser paid teachers to name but one.

I understand why this has become an issue, and for many it's the final nail in the coffin. However, I'd much rather that extra 22 hours per year in exchange for a couple of meetings of two to four hours (which don't actually take that long).

We're already in initiative overload and are in the thick of schools becoming more and more corporate. We've got the new LC coming down the line (sooner than we'd like to think) while we're still getting to grips with the new JC. And on top of all this we've got unequal pay scales. I think the department would only LOVE for us to become entangled in a massive row over this issue - it would be the perfect distraction for the rest of it.

To allow this issue to escalate would be a strategical error on the union's part - it's the perfect red herring for the department.

coillsaille

You have made some very good points there. I'm undecided myself on how hard the ASTI should push the SLAR issue.
For the reasons outlined above they probably shouldn't. But on the other hand I do feel some concern over this gradual erosion of teachers' free time.
As someone in the profession for 20 years now I have seen more and more stuff moved from within school time to outside it - PTMs, staff meetings, CP hours, etc.

Now it looks like there is a push to get SLARS outside school time too. (I know that's not exactly the case currently but that can change once we become flexible about letting them run beyond school hours.)

So while I acknowledge the good reasons not to make this a do or die issue I also worry about where the after-school work will stop if we keep accepting more. The new LC could result in even more SLAR type meetings which is worth bearing in mind also. If we're already doing the JC ones after school then we won't really have an arguement for not doing the same for LC.

Purefrank128

Isn't there a bigger issue here - are the CBAs, ATs and SLARs serving any good purpose? Quite apart from issues of teacher work-load and missed tuition time, is there really an argument that CBAs improve the quality of the student experience at junior level?

acequion

Purefrank128 wrote: »

Isn't there a bigger issue here - are the CBAs, ATs and SLARs serving any good purpose? Quite apart from issues of teacher work-load and missed tuition time, is there really an argument that CBAs improve the quality of the student experience at junior level?

And that's the huge irony in all this. For students and many teachers CBAs stand for "couldn't be arsed" and the thin end of the wedge that is that new junior cycle which was forced on to teachers without proper forward planning as to the logistics, such as the timing /holding of SLAR meetings. As we predicted at the time it's a disaster and CBAs are really of very limited benefit with the AT only being worth the equivalent of one question in an exam. Another rony is that for all the tooing and froing of comparing samples of work in a SLAR, it's the classroom teacher that gets the deciding vote on the descriptor. So apart from it being a bit of training for young teachers on how to mark, it really is a monumental waste of time. And for teachers, who already have to do so much work after hours and maybe keep their own kids in creches etc, it's a bone of contention.

Though, for all that I do see the logic of the post re whether it's wise to turn it into a big issue.

Personally, I'm ok with the present half in/half out which in reality doesn't go on for long after school and I'd prefer to keep my 22 hours personal time. And I don't have young kids with a minder. But many wouldn't agree and want it all in school time for good reasons.So it's a tricky one.

SligoBrewer

The latest bully boy tactics from a bully boy Government who wanted to renege on one last agreement before they exited the stage.

solerina

New circular just issued, 0017/2020 ...who in their right mind would choose option D...ASTI directive is effectively finished !!

km79

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0017_2020.pdf

Benicetomonty

Its an interesting one. According to the Times article, ASTI arent planning to withdraw the directive, and that means D is the only option a lot of schools will have. Hypothetically, consensus may not be reached on any of the options, including D, which would mean it would be up to the Board to make the decision.

D would seem to mean that 8 hrs of our professional time would go; given that the SLARs dont take close to 2 hrs to do, the deficit in time lost would be minimal. The more callous implication would be redeployments or even redundancies, which obviously nobody wants. But itd be the Board making the decision, not fellow staff. On top of being a lot of hassle incorporating 8 hours over the course of a year into a timetable, If all that does happens, wel prob be told to stop co operating with the junior cycle again. Will the (new) govt have the brass neckedness to threaten us with FEMPI again after chickening out when it came to TUI and the INMO? Maybe. But probably not. Especially when it is they that have totally reneged on the agreement, not us.

Millem

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Its an interesting one. According to the Times article, ASTI arent planning to withdraw the directive, and that means D is the only option a lot of schools will have. Hypothetically, consensus may not be reached on any of the options, including D, which would mean it would be up to the Board to make the decision.

D would seem to mean that 8 hrs of our personal time would go; given that the SLARs dont take close to 2 hrs to do, the deficit in time lost would be minimal. The more callous implication would be redeployments or even redundancies, which obviously nobody wants. But itd be the Board making the decision, not fellow staff. On top of being a lot of hassle incorporating 8 hours over the course of a year into a timetable, If it all that does happens, wel prob be told to stop co operating with the junior cycle again. Will the (new) govt have the brass neckedness to threaten us with FEMPI again after chickening out when it came to TUI and the INMO? Maybe. But probably not. Especially when it is they that have totally reneged on the agreement, not us.

I am in a dual union school....what will have if option d goes ahead?

Benicetomonty

Millem wrote: »

I am in a dual union school....what will have if option d goes ahead?

I dont know how the option 'votes' will go in a duel union school tbh. The TUI are already doing what the dept want so is this not just an ASTI issue? Regardless, unless the ASTI withdraw the directive, their members cannot attend SLARs outside of school hours, so any vote to accept a b or c wont solve anything in affected schools.

acequion

Just reading through that circular again and it really comes across as unnecessarily rigid and antagonistic. Given that tuition time is already eroded in schools for all sorts of nonsense and the S&S provision, which many teachers are forcefully locked into, is often used for dubious purposes, the intransigence is quite startling. It certainly gets my back up and I hope we're not going to allow ourselves be backed into this. I don't like option C either as I don't fancy having to prep for SLARS, especially in a subject like English, but I think the top echelons of ASTI would support it. Might work for some subjects.

Cue us all at each other's throats again! :mad:

Millem

I don’t really understand the options...
A do it on the school’s half day
B do it in your own free time
C basic also it in your own free time
D lose the 40 mins professional time and do it in school hours.

Our home ec slar took 2 hours.

Benicetomonty

Millem wrote: »

I don’t really understand the options...
A do it on the school’s half day
B do it in your own free time
C basic also it in your own free time
D lose the 40 mins professional time and do it in school hours.

Our home ec slar took 2 hours.

All of the first 3 options involve not compromising tuition time and, as we've seen thus far, it isnt possible to do that and have the meetings during the school day as per the JC agreement and the ASTI directive. So to go along with any of those options would be a breach of the directive as long as it is in place. Which it will be for the forseeable future by the sounds of things.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0227/1118048-asti-subject-learning-meetings/

Surprised you had a SLAR last that long. Overly enthusiastic facilitator perhaps?

Millem

Benicetomonty wrote: »

All of the first 3 options involve not compromising tuition time and, as we've seen thus far, it isnt possible to do that and have the meetings during the school day as per the JC agreement and the ASTI directive. So to go along with any of those options would be a breach of the directive as long as it is in place. Which it will be for the forseeable future by the sounds of things.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0227/1118048-asti-subject-learning-meetings/

Surprised you had a SLAR last that long. Overly enthusiastic facilitator perhaps?

Yes 2 hours bang on. I have an sphe one coming soon....6 teachers involved so presume it will take 2 hours.